Batman film debate
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The_Iceflash
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Batman film debate
Yes! Let's debate the films and talk about which are good interpretations and which aren't. Let's talk about the Burton films vs the Nolan Films and Nicholson's Joker vs Ledger's Joker. Begin!
I just got the <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... mz">Batman: 4 Film Favorites</a> DVD for Christmas (what an awesome set for under $10!) and am looking forward to seeing the Burton and Schumacher films again. Actually I don't even know if "again" is appropriate because I can't remember getting full, ideal viewings of any of them besides the underrated <i>Batman Forever</i>. Once I re/visit them, I'll be able to weigh in here in earnest. For now, I can say while I wasn't crazy about <i>Batman Begins</i> (especially its first hour or so), I did enjoy <i>The Dark Knight</i> tremendously and have found Nolan to be a more satisfying storyteller than Burton on the whole. Although obviously, Burton has more of note to his resume and even his misses can't completely be dismissed.
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SpringHeelJack
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It's really hard for me to compare all the Batman films because they're so radically different and have their pros and cons. Burton's Batman films, to me, have more of a distinctive personality and style, but they focus too little on Bruce Wayne/Batman himself. Nolan's films finally give the character the development and attention he deserves, but he's so concerned with grounding these in reality that he kind of sucks the fun out of them. As for Schumacher...well, neon Gotham City and bat nipples aren't quite my cup of tea (though I admit I kinda sorta like Batman Forever). Here's how I'd rank them all:
1. The Dark Knight
2. Batman Returns
3. Batman Begins
4. Batman
5. Batman Forever
6. Batman & Robin
The Dark Knight really is as close to perfection as anyone could ask, but I do wish it didn't look like 1,000 other crime dramas. The script and performances are incredible, however. It's easily the most professional and emotionally satisfying Batman film to date.
Batman Returns deserves more attention from the general public since the story (outside of Batman being a supporting character in his film) is handled well. It never feels too slight or too heavy, and it's the best looking Gotham City I've ever seen. Burton, unlike Schumacher, knows how to balance darker and lighter elements, with the one always leaving the other as an undercurrent that's never broken.
Batman Begins' first half is hard for me to sit through since it feels so un-Batmanish, but once he returns home, things pick up nicely. While The Dark Knight's undoubtedly the better film, I kind of prefer Batman Begins' less angsty tone.
Batman (the Burton film) feels kind of stiff; you can tell Burton was under a lot of pressure in this one, and the scenes without Jack Nicholson sort of drag. I do like how this one feels more like a pulp comic than any of the ones that followed it.
It's hard for me to comment on Schumacher's because it's, admittedly, been a while since I've seen them. Batman Forever is better than average thanks to its darker elements, which may or may not be because of Burton's producer role. The comedic portions are too much, though. Batman & Robin takes everything that was wrong with Batman Forever, magnifies it, and stomps out what worked. It'd be hilarious were it not for all its cringe-inducing moments.
If I want hilariously bad Batman, I'll watch the Adam West version (which is too hard for me to place in this list, but that is honestly one of the funniest movies I've seen in my life. The shark scene and its resolution are comedic gold.)
1. The Dark Knight
2. Batman Returns
3. Batman Begins
4. Batman
5. Batman Forever
6. Batman & Robin
The Dark Knight really is as close to perfection as anyone could ask, but I do wish it didn't look like 1,000 other crime dramas. The script and performances are incredible, however. It's easily the most professional and emotionally satisfying Batman film to date.
Batman Returns deserves more attention from the general public since the story (outside of Batman being a supporting character in his film) is handled well. It never feels too slight or too heavy, and it's the best looking Gotham City I've ever seen. Burton, unlike Schumacher, knows how to balance darker and lighter elements, with the one always leaving the other as an undercurrent that's never broken.
Batman Begins' first half is hard for me to sit through since it feels so un-Batmanish, but once he returns home, things pick up nicely. While The Dark Knight's undoubtedly the better film, I kind of prefer Batman Begins' less angsty tone.
Batman (the Burton film) feels kind of stiff; you can tell Burton was under a lot of pressure in this one, and the scenes without Jack Nicholson sort of drag. I do like how this one feels more like a pulp comic than any of the ones that followed it.
It's hard for me to comment on Schumacher's because it's, admittedly, been a while since I've seen them. Batman Forever is better than average thanks to its darker elements, which may or may not be because of Burton's producer role. The comedic portions are too much, though. Batman & Robin takes everything that was wrong with Batman Forever, magnifies it, and stomps out what worked. It'd be hilarious were it not for all its cringe-inducing moments.
If I want hilariously bad Batman, I'll watch the Adam West version (which is too hard for me to place in this list, but that is honestly one of the funniest movies I've seen in my life. The shark scene and its resolution are comedic gold.)
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Escapay
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Rank the Batman movies.
Gonna add The Dark Knight and switch two movies in the rankings I originally made...
1. Batman Forever (1995) - it's my favourite. It's not the best, but it's my favourite. Even outshining the Nolan and Burton films. Why? Because it's still an all-around enjoyable movie to watch. Of the three actors to portray Batman & Bruce in the 89-97 franchise, Val Kilmer is easily the best Batman (Keaton was best as Bruce Wayne and George Clooney was really just being George Clooney dressed up as both, so he doesn't count). He's got the darkness and the mystery needed for the character while also being a relentless and sometimes unforgiving vigilante. I still really don't care for the villains in the movie, because they're not really handled as well as I wanted (someone should have told Jim Carrey to rein it in a bit and for Tommy Lee Jones to go out there a bit more). The mystery that is Chase Meridian continues to go unsolved and something I would have loved to have seen in the sequel (had Kilmer and Kidman stayed on), especially since she knows Batman's identity. Chris O'Donnell as Dick Grayson/Robin still feels a bit new in this, but that's expected. O'Donnell was a young actor, Robin was a young role. Had the franchise continued, he would have grown into it better. Of course, most people automatically lump this with the 2-hour toy commercial that is Batman & Robin because Joel Schumacher directed both. And there is some weak areas that Schumacher could have improved upon. He shouldn't have gone with nipples on the costumes. He didn't have to have a shot of Batman's ass when he puts on the new Batsuit (I always cringe at that). There's actually more things *right* with Batman Forever than there is *wrong*, and because it's the one film that I find myself rewatching more than others, it's my favourite.
2. Batman Begins (2005) - I still don't like Katie Holmes in this movie, she's really the only thing that's still *wrong* for me when watching. I can get over what annoyed me before (that it tries to be two movies squeezed into one), because it's still a good watch and a worthy first-film-in-a-reboot. I don't really consider it my favourite anymore because the "newness" it had in 2006 (when I originally made the rankings) has waned and my general feelings with the Batman films have changed considerably. Christian Bale's Bruce and Batman are more consistent here than they are in earlier films. You get the better feeling that they are one and the same man. Keaton's Batman always felt like "Bruce is who I am, Batman is what I do" (similar to Clark telling Lois that in "Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman"), and Kilmer's Batman/Bruce was always more on the Batman side. But here, you get the feeling that Bruce is Bruce, and Batman is Batman, even if Rachel seemed to think otherwise (and apparently managed to convince Bruce as well).
3. Batman Returns (1992) - this used to be my favourite of the first four, but it's eventually become a movie that I need to be in a certain mood for in order to watch and enjoy it. I love it for its dark romance between Bruce and Selina, and the all-around darkness of the movie is one of its strengths. But really, I can't just sit down on a lazy Saturday and enjoy this as I would Batman Forever. So, unfortunately, for all its darkness and action and leather-suited Michelle Pfeiffer, it's had to go down a ranking.
4. The Dark Knight (2008 ) - when I first saw this movie, I was gobsmacked and floored by a lot of things. But upon rewatching, it just doesn't click with me as it does others. It's a damn fine film, I'll give it that. But sometimes it's just too depressing to watch. Still, it is one of the best Batman movies ever made. Since there likely will be more in the Bale/Nolan franchise, I can't call it the best yet. But when that bridge does come and we cross it, then I'll give it my final ranking.
5. Batman (1989) - honestly, this gets next-to-last by default since the others are above it and nothing can possibly be worst than Batman & Robin. I never really liked the film much as a kid, and even as I got older, it was always the one I looked least forward to watching if I ever had a Batman marathon. I think partly because I always associate this movie with my childhood, a time when I was more interested in Star Trek and Indiana Jones (both of which I still rank above the Batman franchises) rather than watch a superhero movie that my older cousins were raving about.
6. Batman & Robin (1997) - what a wasted opportunity. I used to defend the movie sometimes, but really, it's just a waste. Hell, even if Joel Schumacher had been allowed to continue the franchise with his planned Batman Triumphant, this "movie" would still stick out as a sore thumb. It's as bad as things like Superman IV: The Quest for Peace, Star Trek V: The Final Frontier, Spider-Man 3, X-Men: The Last Stand, Police Academy: Anything After The First...the list goes on and on. George Clooney is the worst Batman in the history of Batmans (and that includes Adam West). The change in direction for the Batman movies (less dark, more toys) is what contributed to the loss of both Val Kilmer as Batman and Nicole Kidman as Chase, two of the best things in Batman Forever. Ugh. Ugh, ugh, ugh, ugh, ugh. Not even the addition of Alicia Silverstone as Batgirl could save this. Especially since you could essentially remove all her scenes and references towards her and not miss a thing.
albert
Gonna add The Dark Knight and switch two movies in the rankings I originally made...
1. Batman Forever (1995) - it's my favourite. It's not the best, but it's my favourite. Even outshining the Nolan and Burton films. Why? Because it's still an all-around enjoyable movie to watch. Of the three actors to portray Batman & Bruce in the 89-97 franchise, Val Kilmer is easily the best Batman (Keaton was best as Bruce Wayne and George Clooney was really just being George Clooney dressed up as both, so he doesn't count). He's got the darkness and the mystery needed for the character while also being a relentless and sometimes unforgiving vigilante. I still really don't care for the villains in the movie, because they're not really handled as well as I wanted (someone should have told Jim Carrey to rein it in a bit and for Tommy Lee Jones to go out there a bit more). The mystery that is Chase Meridian continues to go unsolved and something I would have loved to have seen in the sequel (had Kilmer and Kidman stayed on), especially since she knows Batman's identity. Chris O'Donnell as Dick Grayson/Robin still feels a bit new in this, but that's expected. O'Donnell was a young actor, Robin was a young role. Had the franchise continued, he would have grown into it better. Of course, most people automatically lump this with the 2-hour toy commercial that is Batman & Robin because Joel Schumacher directed both. And there is some weak areas that Schumacher could have improved upon. He shouldn't have gone with nipples on the costumes. He didn't have to have a shot of Batman's ass when he puts on the new Batsuit (I always cringe at that). There's actually more things *right* with Batman Forever than there is *wrong*, and because it's the one film that I find myself rewatching more than others, it's my favourite.
2. Batman Begins (2005) - I still don't like Katie Holmes in this movie, she's really the only thing that's still *wrong* for me when watching. I can get over what annoyed me before (that it tries to be two movies squeezed into one), because it's still a good watch and a worthy first-film-in-a-reboot. I don't really consider it my favourite anymore because the "newness" it had in 2006 (when I originally made the rankings) has waned and my general feelings with the Batman films have changed considerably. Christian Bale's Bruce and Batman are more consistent here than they are in earlier films. You get the better feeling that they are one and the same man. Keaton's Batman always felt like "Bruce is who I am, Batman is what I do" (similar to Clark telling Lois that in "Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman"), and Kilmer's Batman/Bruce was always more on the Batman side. But here, you get the feeling that Bruce is Bruce, and Batman is Batman, even if Rachel seemed to think otherwise (and apparently managed to convince Bruce as well).
3. Batman Returns (1992) - this used to be my favourite of the first four, but it's eventually become a movie that I need to be in a certain mood for in order to watch and enjoy it. I love it for its dark romance between Bruce and Selina, and the all-around darkness of the movie is one of its strengths. But really, I can't just sit down on a lazy Saturday and enjoy this as I would Batman Forever. So, unfortunately, for all its darkness and action and leather-suited Michelle Pfeiffer, it's had to go down a ranking.
4. The Dark Knight (2008 ) - when I first saw this movie, I was gobsmacked and floored by a lot of things. But upon rewatching, it just doesn't click with me as it does others. It's a damn fine film, I'll give it that. But sometimes it's just too depressing to watch. Still, it is one of the best Batman movies ever made. Since there likely will be more in the Bale/Nolan franchise, I can't call it the best yet. But when that bridge does come and we cross it, then I'll give it my final ranking.
5. Batman (1989) - honestly, this gets next-to-last by default since the others are above it and nothing can possibly be worst than Batman & Robin. I never really liked the film much as a kid, and even as I got older, it was always the one I looked least forward to watching if I ever had a Batman marathon. I think partly because I always associate this movie with my childhood, a time when I was more interested in Star Trek and Indiana Jones (both of which I still rank above the Batman franchises) rather than watch a superhero movie that my older cousins were raving about.
6. Batman & Robin (1997) - what a wasted opportunity. I used to defend the movie sometimes, but really, it's just a waste. Hell, even if Joel Schumacher had been allowed to continue the franchise with his planned Batman Triumphant, this "movie" would still stick out as a sore thumb. It's as bad as things like Superman IV: The Quest for Peace, Star Trek V: The Final Frontier, Spider-Man 3, X-Men: The Last Stand, Police Academy: Anything After The First...the list goes on and on. George Clooney is the worst Batman in the history of Batmans (and that includes Adam West). The change in direction for the Batman movies (less dark, more toys) is what contributed to the loss of both Val Kilmer as Batman and Nicole Kidman as Chase, two of the best things in Batman Forever. Ugh. Ugh, ugh, ugh, ugh, ugh. Not even the addition of Alicia Silverstone as Batgirl could save this. Especially since you could essentially remove all her scenes and references towards her and not miss a thing.
albert
WIST #60:
AwallaceUNC: Would you prefer Substi-Blu-tiary Locomotion?
WIST #61:
TheSequelOfDisney: Damn, did Lin-Manuel Miranda go and murder all your families?
AwallaceUNC: Would you prefer Substi-Blu-tiary Locomotion?
WIST #61:
TheSequelOfDisney: Damn, did Lin-Manuel Miranda go and murder all your families?
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Flanger-Hanger
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slave2moonlight
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No love for Mask of the Phantasm? For me, the '90's animated series Batman, along with his use in Justice League, is the ultimate Batman. Still, while I loved Phantasm, I think the story could have had a tad more fun/madness to it.
Anywho, as for the live-action stuff (and yeah, Batman the Movie is hilarious but not logical for this comparison), for me the best is Dark Knight, then Batman Begins, then Batman, then Batman Returns, then Batman Forever, then Batman and Robin.
I simply loved Dark Knight, and if I have any problems with it, it would be on the pet peeve of recasting Rachel and the style of Joker's hair. Superficial complaints, I know. Well, I have 2 other complaints I suppose, if they are valid, which they may not be. One, the idea of Two Face dying. Frankly, I support the belief that the film left Two Face's end ambiguous and only implied that Harvey Dent was "dead". I don't agree with the idea of killing off villains that Batman is supposed to deal with again and again, so if a sequel confirms Two Face as being dead, then I will be rather disappointed. My other potential issue with the film, or Nolan's franchise in general really, is that it is so set in realism that some Batman character would not fit. I've heard that said often, but to me that makes it not a Batman film. The fact is, if Nolan wants to put Killer Croc or Clayface or someone like that in a future film, he can, and it will simply mean viewers got the wrong idea. Just because we hadn't seen anything that bizarre/unreal in the previous two films doesn't mean it is impossible in Nolan's universe. After all, Two-Face being able to live the way he was could be called a big stretch too. Nolan could be easing us into a fully stocked world of Batman villains, and I hope so. How could it be Batman if Poison Ivy couldn't properly exist in his world? I don't think that's right in these days when characters like Ivy are so popular (sure, she could be adapted to just be a crazy plant lover with no special mutation, but that would kinda suck.... but I guess it could be cool in a way too...). So, anyway, what happens in the future of Nolan's franchise is a concern to me, but I guess if he just doesn't touch those characters wouldn't matter much anyway. I guess I'm just saying perhaps the ultra-realistic tone of Nolan's films, which I am a HUGE fan of, don't get me wrong, is perhaps just a tiny bit too much if it doesn't truly allow for full exploration of Batman's history/characters.
Batman Begins. I LOVED this film. It was such a triumph after Schumacher's stuff. I have no problem with the long period before he actually becomes Batman, though I admit it is not as fun to rewatch over and over, but it's still enjoyable and a great part of the story. I know there have been some complaints about the shooting of the fight scenes, and I can understand them, though they don't bother me that much. Over all, amazing film that did a great job re-establishing the Batman onscreen.
Batman. When this first came out, I LOVED it. Now, after seeing Nolan's films, I have a lot of issues with it, ha. It's still fun, Nicholson is still awesome (frankly, I think the ideal Joker would be somewhere inbetween his and Ledger's, not unlike Mark Hamill's, actually), as is Keaton, and it is still a great film. Rather too stiff though, not a big Basinger fan, the commissioner wasn't that great and got worse with each sequel (Oldman's commissioner is just perfection, one of my favorite aspects of Nolan's films), and Batman chalked up too many kills in this one and the next in general. I haven't seen it a while, so I won't say anything else, but it's definitely flawed, while I still love it. Part of my love for it might be nostalgia though, but like Batman Begins, it definitely did a lot for the Bat's reputation. Amazing how it was brought back down to the '60's show level thanks to Schumacher in the coming sequels.
Batman Returns: I love this one, but even here there is a bit too much camp and it's too Burtony with the Penguin and all. So, it had the problems of the first film with a few more added. I agree that Gotham looked awesome though, and Catwoman was great, though I didn't love her creation scenes, even at her apartment. For enjoyability though, I'd say it's at least as enjoyable as the previous film, if not more, but I still think the previous one was better over all.
Batman Forever. Hated it when I first saw it. Why? Because it was a sequel and yet nothing like the previous films. The only continuity was Alfred and Gordon, plus maybe a thing or two in the dialogue. There was a lot of hokeyness. Robin wasn't young enough, though not bad, but I hated the writing over all. Jim Carrey was good and well cast, but Schumacher and his neon and glitter just ruined the few good things about this film. I hate that it convinced a lot of people that Robin cannot be done well/believably. Nicole Kidman looked amazing in it though, and I liked how Batman did more superhero-like stuff, I admit. That was one thing this film got right that the others really hadn't before. Batman in action often really seemed like a superhero. Too bad so much else was terrible about the film.
As has been said before, Batman and Robin took everything wrong about Batman Forever and amped it up and added more badness, losing the good stuff. I feel poor George Clooney gets a bad rap for that film. I think he could have been a decent Batman if everything else were done differently. I really wish Batgirl had been Barbara Gordon and played by Sarah Michelle Gellar, but I guess since they did so much wrong with this movie, it would have just been a bad thing for her, so I guess it's best they didn't do that. Gotham just looks bizarre and futuristic in the worst way in this film, and the villains are written like big budget versions of the TV show. Actually, the whole movie is written like a big budget version of the 60's TV show. A real "What were they thinking?" film. Very sad. Silverstone wasn't even looking all that great here, which is a shame since they at least had her in some great outfits. This movie is fun to watch as a BAD movie, but it's also sad to see Batman treated like this once again. I love the '60's show because I grew up with reruns of it, but I much prefer Batman taken seriously. But, even if one wanted to see a comedic take on the Bat again, this isn't really funny, it's just awful and sad, and a huge waste of resources.
Anywho, as for the live-action stuff (and yeah, Batman the Movie is hilarious but not logical for this comparison), for me the best is Dark Knight, then Batman Begins, then Batman, then Batman Returns, then Batman Forever, then Batman and Robin.
I simply loved Dark Knight, and if I have any problems with it, it would be on the pet peeve of recasting Rachel and the style of Joker's hair. Superficial complaints, I know. Well, I have 2 other complaints I suppose, if they are valid, which they may not be. One, the idea of Two Face dying. Frankly, I support the belief that the film left Two Face's end ambiguous and only implied that Harvey Dent was "dead". I don't agree with the idea of killing off villains that Batman is supposed to deal with again and again, so if a sequel confirms Two Face as being dead, then I will be rather disappointed. My other potential issue with the film, or Nolan's franchise in general really, is that it is so set in realism that some Batman character would not fit. I've heard that said often, but to me that makes it not a Batman film. The fact is, if Nolan wants to put Killer Croc or Clayface or someone like that in a future film, he can, and it will simply mean viewers got the wrong idea. Just because we hadn't seen anything that bizarre/unreal in the previous two films doesn't mean it is impossible in Nolan's universe. After all, Two-Face being able to live the way he was could be called a big stretch too. Nolan could be easing us into a fully stocked world of Batman villains, and I hope so. How could it be Batman if Poison Ivy couldn't properly exist in his world? I don't think that's right in these days when characters like Ivy are so popular (sure, she could be adapted to just be a crazy plant lover with no special mutation, but that would kinda suck.... but I guess it could be cool in a way too...). So, anyway, what happens in the future of Nolan's franchise is a concern to me, but I guess if he just doesn't touch those characters wouldn't matter much anyway. I guess I'm just saying perhaps the ultra-realistic tone of Nolan's films, which I am a HUGE fan of, don't get me wrong, is perhaps just a tiny bit too much if it doesn't truly allow for full exploration of Batman's history/characters.
Batman Begins. I LOVED this film. It was such a triumph after Schumacher's stuff. I have no problem with the long period before he actually becomes Batman, though I admit it is not as fun to rewatch over and over, but it's still enjoyable and a great part of the story. I know there have been some complaints about the shooting of the fight scenes, and I can understand them, though they don't bother me that much. Over all, amazing film that did a great job re-establishing the Batman onscreen.
Batman. When this first came out, I LOVED it. Now, after seeing Nolan's films, I have a lot of issues with it, ha. It's still fun, Nicholson is still awesome (frankly, I think the ideal Joker would be somewhere inbetween his and Ledger's, not unlike Mark Hamill's, actually), as is Keaton, and it is still a great film. Rather too stiff though, not a big Basinger fan, the commissioner wasn't that great and got worse with each sequel (Oldman's commissioner is just perfection, one of my favorite aspects of Nolan's films), and Batman chalked up too many kills in this one and the next in general. I haven't seen it a while, so I won't say anything else, but it's definitely flawed, while I still love it. Part of my love for it might be nostalgia though, but like Batman Begins, it definitely did a lot for the Bat's reputation. Amazing how it was brought back down to the '60's show level thanks to Schumacher in the coming sequels.
Batman Returns: I love this one, but even here there is a bit too much camp and it's too Burtony with the Penguin and all. So, it had the problems of the first film with a few more added. I agree that Gotham looked awesome though, and Catwoman was great, though I didn't love her creation scenes, even at her apartment. For enjoyability though, I'd say it's at least as enjoyable as the previous film, if not more, but I still think the previous one was better over all.
Batman Forever. Hated it when I first saw it. Why? Because it was a sequel and yet nothing like the previous films. The only continuity was Alfred and Gordon, plus maybe a thing or two in the dialogue. There was a lot of hokeyness. Robin wasn't young enough, though not bad, but I hated the writing over all. Jim Carrey was good and well cast, but Schumacher and his neon and glitter just ruined the few good things about this film. I hate that it convinced a lot of people that Robin cannot be done well/believably. Nicole Kidman looked amazing in it though, and I liked how Batman did more superhero-like stuff, I admit. That was one thing this film got right that the others really hadn't before. Batman in action often really seemed like a superhero. Too bad so much else was terrible about the film.
As has been said before, Batman and Robin took everything wrong about Batman Forever and amped it up and added more badness, losing the good stuff. I feel poor George Clooney gets a bad rap for that film. I think he could have been a decent Batman if everything else were done differently. I really wish Batgirl had been Barbara Gordon and played by Sarah Michelle Gellar, but I guess since they did so much wrong with this movie, it would have just been a bad thing for her, so I guess it's best they didn't do that. Gotham just looks bizarre and futuristic in the worst way in this film, and the villains are written like big budget versions of the TV show. Actually, the whole movie is written like a big budget version of the 60's TV show. A real "What were they thinking?" film. Very sad. Silverstone wasn't even looking all that great here, which is a shame since they at least had her in some great outfits. This movie is fun to watch as a BAD movie, but it's also sad to see Batman treated like this once again. I love the '60's show because I grew up with reruns of it, but I much prefer Batman taken seriously. But, even if one wanted to see a comedic take on the Bat again, this isn't really funny, it's just awful and sad, and a huge waste of resources.
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Lazario
He has a really good excuse for it, though.Disneykid wrote:It's really hard for me to compare all the Batman films because they're so radically different and have their pros and cons. Burton's Batman films, to me, have more of a distinctive personality and style, but they focus too little on Bruce Wayne/Batman himself.
Batman as a character has always intended to keep private and not reveal much of himself to anyone. And he has an internal struggle between his good and bad impulses. Burton's films dealt with that much better than anyone else's.I think most people here know where I stand. I was so blown away by Burton's 2 films, nothing since has come anywhere near being as good. And it was him who really gave Schumacher and Nolan the chance to make their films. So, they owe him big time.
I also think most people only gravitate toward Nolan's films because they're shiny and new and they go with today's action-thriller style or because they like (for example) Heath Ledger and Katie Holmes as heartthrobs. Even Schumacher's casting of Val Kilmer and George Clooney was a bid to get more girls and women in to want to see his movies. So, it's too funny how the casting of Christian Bale and Heath Ledger just scream: teen idols. And Katie Holmes, for the straight guys. They were teen idols, on their films / shows previous to each of Nolan's Batmans.
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PixarFan2006
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I also think Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker (uncut version) deserves a mention. That was one of my favorite Batman movies.
To rank em....
1.) Dark Knight
2.) Batman Beyond:Return of the Joker
3.) Batman Forever
4.) Batman: Mask of the Phantasm
5.) Batman
6.) Batman Returns
7.) Batman and Robin...though seriously...if they cut out the cheezy crap that Mr. Freeze said, this movie would have been far more salvageable)
To rank em....
1.) Dark Knight
2.) Batman Beyond:Return of the Joker
3.) Batman Forever
4.) Batman: Mask of the Phantasm
5.) Batman
6.) Batman Returns
7.) Batman and Robin...though seriously...if they cut out the cheezy crap that Mr. Freeze said, this movie would have been far more salvageable)
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Lazario
Oh wow... Batman Forever was terrible! That movie was horrible! Val Kilmer was a robot, Nicole Kidman was a glorified nympho with no depth, Tommy Lee Jones had no control in any of his scenes, they underused Drew Barrymore, they completely covered up Debi Mazar 'til she was unrecognizable (and I love her!), and... well, Jim Carrey was just being himself. It was too flashy, over-budgeted, over-the-top, noisy, lame, and basically a musical without singing. That's the way the director staged the movie. It alternated between a bad cartoon (excess over introspection), a Calvin Klein commercial (were CK utterly insane and the models practically foaming at the mouth), and a bad Mtv music video. It's one of the greatest mainstream disasters in the history of Hollywood cinema. It's an eyesore and an earsore and a complete rape of the senses.
My thoughts on the Burton/Schumacher films (from the "What movie did you just watch?" thread):
1. Batman Returns
2. Batman Begins / The Dark Knight
3. Batman
4. Batman Forever / Catwoman
5. Batman & Robin
I've never seen "Batman: The Movie" or the 1940s serials.
As for animated films:
1. The Batman/Superman Movie: World's Finest (yes, I know it's just a compilation of three "Superman: TAS" episodes)
2. Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker
3. Batman: Mystery of the Batwoman
4. Batman & Mr. Freeze: SubZero
5. Batman: Mask of the Phantasm
6. Batman Beyond: The Movie (another compilation)
7. The Batman vs. Dracula (good movie, silly title)
On the whole, I prefer Batman's animated outings (including "Batman: TAS") over the live-action incarnations.
Even though "Batman Begins" and "The Dark Knight" are due for a re-watch, my overall ranking is this:Batman – If you had asked me two years ago what I thought of this film, I would have called it a convulted mess with the most overhyped character actor's performance. Today I eat my words. This is a masterpiece. Yes, the Joker is pretty much still Jack Nicholson in a purple suit, and though I prefer Heath Ledger's take on the character, there's something grim yet likeable in the way Nicholson brings the Joker to life. Michael Keaton is Batman. His Bruce Wayne is a tragic character, but still retains his playful if slightly goofy playboy personality. I have some issues with the story dynamics, but they're irrelevant compared to everything else. Beautiful cinematography, luscious sets and the score are pluses too.
Batman Returns – From the very first scene this film feels radically different from the previous one. While "Batman" seems soaked up in realism (I know it's strange bringing up realism when talking about Batman movies of the '90s), "Batman Returns" plays out like a straight-up fantasy movie even though they were both directed by Tim Burton. It's not a bad thing at all; on the contrary, it's a testament to Burton's talent to make two films in the same series stand out from each other, something other directors have yet to learn (I'm looking at you, Chris Columbus). Keaton continues to play Batman/Bruce Wayne with utmost confidence. However, the real star here is Michelle Pfeiffer. Selina Kyle's breakdown is simply chill-inducing and practically every subsequent Catwoman scene is one of this film's highlights. Keaton and Pfeiffer have an amazing chemistry, which is best reflected in the final confrontation and the ballroom dance preceding it. Shadows also play an important part. More than a few dashes of sex, innuendos and memorable music round up this film for a fantastic cinematic experience.
Batman Forever – I was pleasantly surprised at how much I enjoyed it after not seeing it for about 6 or 7 years. It sort of combined the best aspects of Burton's films with the more colorful/child-friendly approach to Batman mythos. Did it work? Not always. Is it campy? Yes, but so were "Batman" and "Batman Returns", though in a different, less-obvious way. There's still an aura of darkness around the characters, which helps this movie a lot. And if Michael Keaton was the best Batman, Val Kilmer was most certainly the best Bruce Wayne. However, one major drawback are the villains: manic personas of these two just don't compliment each other (and weren't aided by Jim Carrey playing Cable Guy playing Ace Ventura). I would have preferred one of them to be cold-blooded, silent, menacing type, but instead of that we got not one, but two Joker-clones.
Batman & Robin – The best way to describe it: neon overload and utter ridiculousness. I'm trying to find positive things to say about this movie. Well, Chris O'Donnell was good, Uma Thurman was okay when she wasn't overacting, and even Arnold Schwarzenegger was okay when he wasn't trying to be funny or menacing (which was like for a total of two minutes). Some of the fights were well-choreographed. Now for the bad things: George Clooney was completely miscast (Val Kilmer, what happened to you?). Character lines were either cheesy or contained not-so-funny puns. Gotham City's skyline changed for the worst (what's with those huge statues?). The blue/silver costumes of the trio weren't eye-pleasing. Not to mention bat-skates, bat-credit card and other bat-nonsense. If you're looking for a good Batman/Mr. Freeze movie watch "SubZero" instead.
Catwoman – I count this movie as part of Burton/Schumacher universe (for one, it started off as a a "Batman Returns" spin-off. That, and an image of Michelle Pfeiffer's Catwoman is seen in one of the scenes). That said, five years after its release, I still don't understand the practically universal hate for this movie. It's not a masterpiece by any means, but it's enjoyable from start to finish. It also has a fantastic musical score (portions of which were later used for "TMNT"), decent story and the cast's not half-bad. So she's not the Catwoman. Big deal. How many versions of Supergirl, Green Lantern, Robin, and now Batman, are there in the comics? Exactly. Just think of this movie as some sort of a stand-alone story.
1. Batman Returns
2. Batman Begins / The Dark Knight
3. Batman
4. Batman Forever / Catwoman
5. Batman & Robin
I've never seen "Batman: The Movie" or the 1940s serials.
As for animated films:
1. The Batman/Superman Movie: World's Finest (yes, I know it's just a compilation of three "Superman: TAS" episodes)
2. Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker
3. Batman: Mystery of the Batwoman
4. Batman & Mr. Freeze: SubZero
5. Batman: Mask of the Phantasm
6. Batman Beyond: The Movie (another compilation)
7. The Batman vs. Dracula (good movie, silly title)
On the whole, I prefer Batman's animated outings (including "Batman: TAS") over the live-action incarnations.
Actually, I liked Batman Forever for many of those reasons. Its campy and funny. I don't take it seriously. But I still enjoyed it. Plus rewatching it brings back some great memories of seeing it with my friends in high school.
I actually was one of the few people in the world who actually enjoyed Catwoman. I enjoyed it for what it was, but it was not the Catwoman I know and love. But I didn't find it as horrible as people said it was.
And damn, I forgot all about Batman/Superman TAS, that was also a great film.
I actually was one of the few people in the world who actually enjoyed Catwoman. I enjoyed it for what it was, but it was not the Catwoman I know and love. But I didn't find it as horrible as people said it was.
And damn, I forgot all about Batman/Superman TAS, that was also a great film.
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niamh_nimrod
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milojthatch
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This was talked about on another board I'm on. As was mentioned there and that I agreed with, it is hard to say. Adam West's Batman, while panned by fan boys these days, WAS Batman back in the 60's and was faithful the comics at that time. Micheal Keaton's Batman was faithful to the comics at the ed of the 1908's. The Nolan films are closer to how the characters are depict the last decade.
The point being you have to see these films with historians eyes when you rate them.
For me personally, my list would not be the way most Batman movie list would be today. While I mostly enjoyed The Dark Knight besides the fact that I felt it was WAY to violent for a good Batman film (that aspect did have it's effect on my feelings of it), it did not satisfy me the way I had hoped it would.
My rankings:
Batman Begins
Batman (89')
Batman Forever
The Dark Knight
Batman Returns
Batman (66')
Batman and Robin
The point being you have to see these films with historians eyes when you rate them.
For me personally, my list would not be the way most Batman movie list would be today. While I mostly enjoyed The Dark Knight besides the fact that I felt it was WAY to violent for a good Batman film (that aspect did have it's effect on my feelings of it), it did not satisfy me the way I had hoped it would.
My rankings:
Batman Begins
Batman (89')
Batman Forever
The Dark Knight
Batman Returns
Batman (66')
Batman and Robin
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All the adversity I've had in my life, all my troubles and obstacles, have strengthened me... You may not realize it when it happens, but a kick in the teeth may be the best thing in the world for you.
-Walt Disney
All the adversity I've had in my life, all my troubles and obstacles, have strengthened me... You may not realize it when it happens, but a kick in the teeth may be the best thing in the world for you.
-Walt Disney
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The_Iceflash
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I agree with Lazario as well.
My problem with the Nolan series is that it takes itself too seriously. I don't like that and the ultra-realistic tone of it. Batman and the entire Batman universe isn't a ultra-realistic environment so to do that takes something away from the films to me. I dislike Batman's voice in Nolan's films and the Batmobile has to be the worst I've ever seen.
I think Burton's films had the correct tone and feel to it. The character's performances felt right as well. Those films feel like the Batman universe. In Nolan's films, I almost forget at times I'm watching Batman.
My problem with the Nolan series is that it takes itself too seriously. I don't like that and the ultra-realistic tone of it. Batman and the entire Batman universe isn't a ultra-realistic environment so to do that takes something away from the films to me. I dislike Batman's voice in Nolan's films and the Batmobile has to be the worst I've ever seen.
I think Burton's films had the correct tone and feel to it. The character's performances felt right as well. Those films feel like the Batman universe. In Nolan's films, I almost forget at times I'm watching Batman.
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merlinjones
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milojthatch
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I can defiantly agree with that. I believe comic books and their characters should have an element of fun, something the Nolan Batman lacks.The_Iceflash wrote:I agree with Lazario as well.
My problem with the Nolan series is that it takes itself too seriously. I don't like that and the ultra-realistic tone of it. Batman and the entire Batman universe isn't a ultra-realistic environment so to do that takes something away from the films to me. I dislike Batman's voice in Nolan's films and the Batmobile has to be the worst I've ever seen.
I think Burton's films had the correct tone and feel to it. The character's performances felt right as well. Those films feel like the Batman universe. In Nolan's films, I almost forget at times I'm watching Batman.
Watch a film like "Iron Man" or the "Spider-Man" films, they have that element to them. Batman film before had it too, but thanks to Nolan, are loosing it.
I know a lot of other people are looking forward to the next Nolan film, but I fear based on Dark Knight it will be so dark the hero we once stood behind will be but a child's dream and memory.
____________________________________________________________
All the adversity I've had in my life, all my troubles and obstacles, have strengthened me... You may not realize it when it happens, but a kick in the teeth may be the best thing in the world for you.
-Walt Disney
All the adversity I've had in my life, all my troubles and obstacles, have strengthened me... You may not realize it when it happens, but a kick in the teeth may be the best thing in the world for you.
-Walt Disney
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Lazario
You actually explained exactly what I was thinking. If I'm watching a superhero film, I want to see "super" situations. I like fantasy atmosphere and I like it wild, but not gritty. Well... no more gritty than Tim Burton got. Gothic. Reality is overrated. Why should super movies be less super?The_Iceflash wrote:I agree with Lazario as well.
My problem with the Nolan series is that it takes itself too seriously. I don't like that and the ultra-realistic tone of it. Batman and the entire Batman universe isn't a ultra-realistic environment so to do that takes something away from the films to me. I dislike Batman's voice in Nolan's films and the Batmobile has to be the worst I've ever seen.
I think Burton's films had the correct tone and feel to it. The character's performances felt right as well. Those films feel like the Batman universe. In Nolan's films, I almost forget at times I'm watching Batman.