You break the spell when you start to speak
That technique is all wrong
Just forget about words and sing her a song

albert
I whole-heartedly agree. And it's a completely different thing from movies and television. They're both artforms. But music is almost never used to appeal to a person's intellect. Have you ever heard; "It's got a good narrative and you can think to it" ever used to describe a song?MutantEnemy wrote:It is a fool's errand to criticize something as subjective as music!
You got it.Ting Ting wrote:2004: Ashlee Simpson - Autobiography (shoot me)
2005: Ashlee Simpson - I Am Me (again, please)
Who didn't? I think I posted somewhere in the Legendary Britney Spears thread that "she didn't deserve second, third, fourth chances" or something to that effect. It was a very difficult time to be a Britney fan! I don't think anyone would have judged you for not accepting crazy behavior as correct.Ting Ting wrote: I went through a phase where I pretended I hated her during the Blackout era.
<center>And they're all playing catch-up to:The_Iceflash wrote:To be honest, I think rock music of the past 10 years (I'll even go as far as to say 20 years) for the most part has been less than impressive. There are exceptions though.
Me.MutantEnemy wrote:Who didn't?Ting Ting wrote: I went through a phase where I pretended I hated her during the Blackout era.
Count me as one of the few who actually liked her better during that whole thing was going on. She was more interesting to me, personally. Everyone likes her cleancut. I like her when she's more real. When she did "Piece of Me," I actually had to recognize that she had a brain. Previous to that, I never would have known. Her music was so... Typical. Bland. Predictable. One-Dimensional. Attitude without much to back it up, other than a gym-built body. Little humor. Little awareness of anything important. You could dance to it. But you were a little embarrassed to be caught listening to it in front of other people.MutantEnemy wrote:I think I posted somewhere in the Legendary Britney Spears thread that "she didn't deserve second, third, fourth chances" or something to that effect. It was a very difficult time to be a Britney fan! I don't think anyone would have judged you for not accepting crazy behavior as correct.
No, you confuse "favorite" with "best". I'm still surprised how so many people can't see the difference. Look, there's a thread on UD with the title "Favorite movies of the decade". I will post titles in there that are not the best movies per sé, but then again, that's not what was being asked. If they had asked "The best movies of the decade?", I would have given an entirely different list. You see, what you *prefer* doesn't have to be the best. And what's the best, is not neccessarily what you like.MutantEnemy wrote:Goliath, forgive me but I think you are way off base here. The thread title is Best Albums of the Decade: 2000-2009! -- meaning what UD thinks are the best albums of this decade!
You mean, people who actually know what good music is? Oh, I just LOVE how people with knowledge, expertise and taste get trashed on every forum by being called "pretentious snob"! It makes the person writing that look so insecure of his own opinions.MutantEnemy wrote:If we wanted to post what every pretentious music snob thinks is great we could direct you to Rolling Stones list and the like.
I'm not bashing people! Where did I bash people? I bash their musical preferences. That's a different thing entirely. Unless you define yourself by your musical preferences. And frankly, that would be pathetic.MutantEnemy wrote:I think it's extremely rude to bash people for the music they like. You may live and breathe music, but to others like myself, music is just music, if it is pleasant sounding and has a good beat we like it! Not all music is meant to be the second coming of Christ!
Hold it, hold it... I'm "a type"? Well, good doctor, please tell me, what *is* my "type" and how did you recognize me so soon? You, who don't know me at all?MutantEnemy wrote:I see your type on forums all the time
Oh, I'm sorry! I thought this was a discussion forum! Stupid me!MutantEnemy wrote:- arguing for the sake of arguing- and I have to ask you, what is the point? It is a fool's errand to criticize something as subjective as music!
What do I like? I like Disney's animated classics; I like Disney's comics (huge in Europe); I like Disney's music. Besides Disney, I like all types of movies, old and new, Hollywood or artfilms, all genres (except horror).MutantEnemy wrote:What exactly do you like, because it seems like you hate everything but Gargoyles!?!
Since any smart person could see I was trying to engage you in serious discussion about music only to have you ignore me (Goliath wrote:No, you confuse "favorite" with "best". I'm still surprised how so many people can't see the difference. Look, there's a thread on UD with the title "Favorite movies of the decade". I will post titles in there that are not the best movies per sé, but then again, that's not what was being asked. If they had asked "The best movies of the decade?", I would have given an entirely different list. You see, what you *prefer* doesn't have to be the best. And what's the best, is not neccessarily what you like.MutantEnemy wrote:Goliath, forgive me but I think you are way off base here. The thread title is Best Albums of the Decade: 2000-2009! -- meaning what UD thinks are the best albums of this decade!
You mean, people who actually know what good music is? Oh, I just LOVE how people with knowledge, expertise and taste get trashed on every forum by being called "pretentious snob"! It makes the person writing that look so insecure of his own opinions.MutantEnemy wrote:If we wanted to post what every pretentious music snob thinks is great we could direct you to Rolling Stones list and the like.
I'm not bashing people! Where did I bash people? I bash their musical preferences. That's a different thing entirely. Unless you define yourself by your musical preferences. And frankly, that would be pathetic.MutantEnemy wrote:I think it's extremely rude to bash people for the music they like. You may live and breathe music, but to others like myself, music is just music, if it is pleasant sounding and has a good beat we like it! Not all music is meant to be the second coming of Christ!
Hold it, hold it... I'm "a type"? Well, good doctor, please tell me, what *is* my "type" and how did you recognize me so soon? You, who don't know me at all?MutantEnemy wrote:I see your type on forums all the time![]()
Oh, I'm sorry! I thought this was a discussion forum! Stupid me!MutantEnemy wrote:- arguing for the sake of arguing- and I have to ask you, what is the point? It is a fool's errand to criticize something as subjective as music!
What do I like? I like Disney's animated classics; I like Disney's comics (huge in Europe); I like Disney's music. Besides Disney, I like all types of movies, old and new, Hollywood or artfilms, all genres (except horror).MutantEnemy wrote:What exactly do you like, because it seems like you hate everything but Gargoyles!?!
In music, I like Bob Dylan a lot, and The Beatles, Simon & Garfunkel, Bruce Springsteen, Boudewijn de Groot (Dutch singer-songwriter), Pink Floyd and a lot more. I also like a lot of more recent music, but I keep forgetting names (I listen to the radio a lot).
I also like to read about history and politics and to engage in political discussion. People call me a news-junkie.
In television, there's little in fiction that still holds my attention. The series I like have all ended or have been cancelled, like Life, The West Wing, Twin Peaks, The Sopranos, Frasier, Friends. The only series I like now is Mad Men.
I also like to enjoy a good meal, a glass of fine beer and a beautiful woman once in a while.![]()
Oh, and I like to laugh about people on internet forums who pretend they know me and have figured me out.
How'd ya miss this post, G?I was so enjoying this thread and am disappointed to see it driving off-course.
Several of the comments in this thread have veered into the unacceptable territory of personal attacks. When stating your opinion or responding to others, please be sure that you address opinions and not people when being critical. You should not personify your disagreements. Personal attacks will not be tolerated.
Please refer to the Forum Guidelines for guidance (or a refresher).
As far as this thread specifically is concerned, the topic invites all users to post the albums they consider to be the best and anyone is allowed to do just that.
I advise everyone participating in the current discussion to think first and use discretion when posting as the thread moves forward. Consider this a warning.
I am continuing to work on my personal list of the best albums of the decade and will post it here once I'm done.
Thanks,
Aaron
I know little about rap music. The only thing I know, is the so-called "gangsta rap" I see on music stations sometimes while flipping the channels. But I've unerstood from people that there's also a lot of other rap music out there, which does have actual sustance to it. So I can't judge it.Lazario wrote:Does that go for the rap artists too?![]()
No seriously - does it?
Oh no, I didn't say or mean that. And maybe people got the wrong impression from my post. I also listen to music which would, rightfully, be described as 'simple', or 'easy listening', but:Lazario wrote:This isn't that same old, tired, deadhorse-beating "if it's not guitars and drums, it's not real music" bull is it??
I disagree. Obviously, you've never listen to a Bob Dylan- or Simon & Garfunkel-song. (And there are tons of other examples.) Music can be an art-form too. I don't see how they're different from movies and television. Movies and television don't only appeal to intellect either (more often than not they don't). But, just like music, they *can*.Lazario wrote:I whole-heartedly agree. And it's a completely different thing from movies and television. They're both artforms. But music is almost never used to appeal to a person's intellect. Have you ever heard; "It's got a good narrative and you can think to it" ever used to describe a song?MutantEnemy wrote:It is a fool's errand to criticize something as subjective as music!
Why would I, or anyobe else, "admit" to that? That's a strawman you're using. A lazy excuse for not having to debate about the musical qualities of the "tween music". Just say that the other person doesn't "get it" and you're done. Wow, that's easy! Never mind that they all sing the same and sound the same and can only do two types of songs.Lazario wrote:[...] I almost can't help but feel like that whole "teeny bopper music sucks" of the 90's (now: "tween") is the same as the people who couldn't stand rock n' roll when that first came out. [...] Hating what speaks to the next generation of music fans because it's so different. I think the criticism of all the Britney's and Christina's and Mandy's of pop music is yet another incarnation of: "I don't get it." But you'll never hear anyone admit that it's a matter of not understanding the music's appeal.
I'm not really looking anymore... but I haven't seen genuine gangsta rap come out in a long time. It's probably me being out of touch with current trends, but the last time I paid attention, all the gangstas turned Party Rap. Beanie's and Bow Wow's and Yoyo's. Rap tracks on Rugrats movie soundtracks. Common doing techno-pop. Snoop Dogg singing. Ludicris's "eccentric" self-aggrandizing ("Area Codes"). Silly b.s. ("Drop It Like It's Hot"), and a long string of novelty songs (beginning in the 90's with "Back That Thang Up" and "The Thong Song") leading to rap's current state. Last I noticed, it was cheap and ridiculous. Rather than serious. It is a very big genre, though. I don't blame anyone for not bothering to keep up with it.Goliath wrote:I know little about rap music. The only thing I know, is the so-called "gangsta rap" I see on music stations sometimes while flipping the channels.
What a nice way of putting it. I don't disagree with you either. A lot of music aimed toward kids are often made by kids / teens (New Kids on the Block, Britney Spears - at one time, Miley Cyrus, Jonas Brothers, Aaron Carter, Hanson, Ashlee Simpson, Cleopatra). In that case, talent is not the issue. It's the sleazy business parctices (often accompanied with/by Showbiz Parents shenanigans) and rabid consumerism to blame for shoving every kid who thinks they can sing and can somehow form a group in our faces.Goliath wrote:Oh no, I didn't say or mean that. And maybe people got the wrong impression from my post. I also listen to music which would, rightfully, be described as 'simple', or 'easy listening', but:Lazario wrote:This isn't that same old, tired, deadhorse-beating "if it's not guitars and drums, it's not real music" bull is it?
a.) I would never claim it's the best in music
b.) it doesn't include television talentscouting rejects or music meant for teenage girls
As a matter of fact, you aren't wrong with that statement. I haven't. That I know of. Call it willful ignorance. I plain old never saw the appeal of those artists. Nor did I ever find myself alone with any of their CD's and an overwhelming urge to give 'em a spin.Goliath wrote:I disagree. Obviously, you've never listen to a Bob Dylan- or Simon & Garfunkel-song.Lazario wrote: I whole-heartedly agree. And it's a completely different thing from movies and television. They're both artforms. But music is almost never used to appeal to a person's intellect. Have you ever heard; "It's got a good narrative and you can think to it" ever used to describe a song?
There is a definite difference between them both. I relate it to the obvious. Music moves you and it's best appreciated when you do. With films, you basically have to stay still and pay attention. And that is pretty obvious. Which is probably why you don't agree. I know there's more to it, but on a fundamental level- you know when you do and don't like the music you're listening to. There are a lot of different elements mixed into the sound, but it comes together to make the sound. And people are really basic about what music they do and don't like hearing. Movies require a lot more thought to appreciate. Unless they're stupid films. Or... "simple" films. The cinematic equivalent to elevator music?Goliath wrote:Music can be an art-form too. I don't see how they're different from movies and television. Movies and television don't only appeal to intellect either (more often than not they don't). But, just like music, they *can*.
There's a very good explanation for why I am doing that (and I don't deny you're right, I am lazy, and I am doing what you say I'm doing):Goliath wrote:Why would I, or anyobe else, "admit" to that? That's a strawman you're using. A lazy excuse for not having to debate about the musical qualities of the "tween music". Just say that the other person doesn't "get it" and you're done. Wow, that's easy! Never mind that they all sing the same and sound the same and can only do two types of songs.Lazario wrote:I almost can't help but feel like that whole "teeny bopper music sucks" of the 90's (now: "tween") is the same as the people who couldn't stand rock n' roll when that first came out. [...] Hating what speaks to the next generation of music fans because it's so different. I think the criticism of all the Britney's and Christina's and Mandy's of pop music is yet another incarnation of: "I don't get it." But you'll never hear anyone admit that it's a matter of not understanding the music's appeal.
I may be stepping into hot water with this one... but, ahdda hell with it:Goliath wrote:As far as Aaron's post goes: I respond to posts in the order I read them. Since his post is on page 2, I read it only later. But if I read him correctly, he's saying that "personal attacks" are not allowed. Of course personal attacks are not allowed. But if I made just one personal attack in this thread, I'd like to see it. Didn't Aaron say there's a difference between discussing opinions and attacking people? And doesn't that prove my point?![]()
A little bit of mocking because you disapprove of the way they're answering back to you.Goliath wrote:Aaaw, poor you. I hope you feel better soon.DisneyFreak5282 wrote:This is the second thread that I have created in which you have come into and criticized me and others for liking something that you didn't, and quite frankly, I'm getting a little sick of it.
Dang! Forgot about that.2099net wrote:Stand-out Track:
Oh my.Lazario wrote:As a matter of fact, you aren't wrong with that statement. I haven't. That I know of. Call it willful ignorance. I plain old never saw the appeal of those artists. Nor did I ever find myself alone with any of their CD's and an overwhelming urge to give 'em a spin.Goliath wrote:I disagree. Obviously, you've never listened to a Bob Dylan- or Simon & Garfunkel-song.
MutantEnemy wrote:Goliath, forgive me but I think you are way off base here. The thread title is Best Albums of the Decade: 2000-2009! -- meaning what UD thinks are the best albums of this decade!
But who gets to say what is best? You? Me? No, everyone is qualified to say what is the best in their eyes. To mention the best movies thing, you yourself say that your favorites are not the best, but why not? Is your opinion of movies worth less than a movie reviewer. Maybe you are insecure about your own opinions.Goliath wrote:No, you confuse "favorite" with "best". I'm still surprised how so many people can't see the difference. Look, there's a thread on UD with the title "Favorite movies of the decade". I will post titles in there that are not the best movies per sé, but then again, that's not what was being asked. If they had asked "The best movies of the decade?", I would have given an entirely different list. You see, what you *prefer* doesn't have to be the best. And what's the best, is not neccessarily what you like.
MutantEnemy wrote:If we wanted to post what every pretentious music snob thinks is great we could direct you to Rolling Stones list and the like.
See above postGoliath wrote:You mean, people who actually know what good music is? Oh, I just LOVE how people with knowledge, expertise and taste get trashed on every forum by being called "pretentious snob"! It makes the person writing that look so insecure of his own opinions.
MutantEnemy wrote:I think it's extremely rude to bash people for the music they like. You may live and breathe music, but to others like myself, music is just music, if it is pleasant sounding and has a good beat we like it! Not all music is meant to be the second coming of Christ!
Wrong, by bashing musical preferences, you bash the person within whom those preferences lie. Music is just one of many things people identify with.Goliath wrote:I'm not bashing people! Where did I bash people? I bash their musical preferences. That's a different thing entirely. Unless you define yourself by your musical preferences. And frankly, that would be pathetic.
MutantEnemy wrote:I see your type on forums all the time
Yes, I would say that your internet type is arrogant troll. All I need to know about you is that you treat complete strangers with disrespect! Is there more to you that someone else would want to know?Goliath wrote:Hold it, hold it... I'm "a type"? Well, good doctor, please tell me, what *is* my "type" and how did you recognize me so soon? You, who don't know me at all?![]()
MutantEnemy wrote:- arguing for the sake of arguing- and I have to ask you, what is the point? It is a fool's errand to criticize something as subjective as music!
Discussion and arguing are two very different things. Discussion implies a give and take of ideas and information, while arguing is one person telling another person what's right and trying to get the last word.Goliath wrote:Oh, I'm sorry! I thought this was a discussion forum! Stupid me!
No, I can make a distinction between "best" and "favorite". Take Citizen Kane (1941) for example. By all standards (camerawork, direction, editing, storytelling), this is one of the best films of all time. I, as a scholar in film, will acknowledge that immediately. Orson Welles was just so visionary in his movie-making that I can't help but agree that this film is one of the best ever made. However, does that mean that it's my personal favorite? No. I appreciate it for its achievements, but I wouldn't place it in my personal top 10.MutantEnemy wrote:But who gets to say what is best? You? Me? No, everyone is qualified to say what is the best in their eyes. To mention the best movies thing, you yourself say that your favorites are not the best, but why not? Is your opinion of movies worth less than a movie reviewer. Maybe you are insecure about your own opinions.
No, I'm just saying you have a bad taste in music. I'm not saying you're all bad people, or that I think you're dumb or stupid... I don't. I just think the music you listen to is crap. That's all.MutantEnemy wrote:Wrong, by bashing musical preferences, you bash the person within whom those preferences lie. Music is just one of many things people identify with.
Are you any better, MutantEnemy? Do you treat me with respect? I gave an opinion about your taste in music and you treat me like a troll. Does that make you look good? Judging people you don't know on their character? At least all I did was judging your taste in music. I didn't judge you on your character. It's sad that you can't see the irony in your name-calling against me.MutantEnemy wrote:Yes, I would say that your internet type is arrogant troll. All I need to know about you is that you treat complete strangers with disrespect! Is there more to you that someone else would want to know?
There's no way for me to say this and not sound like a flake. You're right. I just forget about that kind of thing. Rap used to be about telling stories, too. That's one of the defenses I used to use when ignorant white people dismissed the entire genre.Goliath wrote:When you wrote about music not being about narrative, I immediately had to think of those two artists. They're storytellers pur sang. Of course they tell stories to move you, to touch you, and to get you in a particular mood. But they do tell stories. And a lot of Dylan's early music "appeals to the itellect", with so-called 'protest-songs'. And his rock 'n roll-music (for the lack of a better word) can be so weird at first hearing, that you have to let it sink in first, and you have to get used to it, before you can fully appreciate it. (This is also in response to your comments about music versus films.)