The Princess and the Frog Discussion - Part III

[Sotiris]

Well, "A Christmas Carol" was very good.....

I'm not saying that it wasn't; i don't know if it was or not since i haven't watched it yet. I'm just criticizing the logic behind Disney's choice of not consider Ponyo and PatF as Best Picture contenders as well. A Christmas Carol has also the disadvantage that it is a Christmas/holiday movie which usually get snubbed at the Oscars. So, choosing to push a Best Picture nomination for A Christmas Carol instead of the critically acclaimed Ponyo makes no sense to me.

[SmartAleck25]

I think that Up deserves to be in the Best Picture Category, but I have not yet seen Ponyo or A Christmas Carol. I have heard that Ponyo is amazing (like most Miyakazi films, except for Spirited Away, which has given me nightmares for years), but Christmas Carol I have heard is only good for its better use of motion capture filmmaking and visual effects. Margos seems to like it... Could you tell me some highlights? Is it faithful to the original script? Also, PatF seems like an awesome film, but I'm not liking this Naveen guy, he's seeming conceited. Not even his servant Lawrence likes him. Same with Charlotte (minus the Lawrence part). I don't like the songs except for When We're Human. I am also worried about some crude humor?
(a.k.a. in trailer, Naveen's behind puffs up) Let's hope PatF lives up to its potential.

[PrincePhillipFan]

I too find it odd that Disney isn't pushing Ponyo or PatF. It seems like they would be the most obvious choices for them.

Also, PatF seems like an awesome film, but I'm not liking this Naveen guy, he's seeming conceited. Not even his servant Lawrence likes him. Same with Charlotte (minus the Lawrence part). I don't like the songs except for When We're Human. I am also worried about some crude humor?
(a.k.a. in trailer, Naveen's behind puffs up) Let's hope PatF lives up to its potential.

I think that's the whole point of Naveen's character. He is supposed to be rather conceited, but on the adventure realizes he should have self-control in his life. I personally like it and think it's a rather interesting direction for a Disney prince. Also, judging by Mama Odie's song, Tiana herself isn't all that perfect either, so they both learn a respective lesson which I think helps to balance out their characters and not make it that one-sided.

I'm hoping as well that a lot of the crude humor was just highlighted in the trailer to appeal to children. They always seem to do that for some reason for the trailers that are more geared to the younger set. The Ray jokes might get tiring to me, but the Naveen butt expansion doesn't bother me that much. But as I said earlier, that might just be myself having a big bum, so it's nice having a relection of a prince with a large rump like me.

[Margos]

I don't know about "Ponyo," but then, I've never seen it... Isn't it basically TLM in Japan?

But yeah, the biggest draw for me with "A Christmas Carol," since you asked was the faithfulness to the book (it is one of the most faithful versions of all time), as well as the cinematography in general. And not just the SFX, just the timing and construction of the shots for maximum dramatic effect. It was just an excellent film all around, highly recommmended, SmartAleck25!

[SmartAleck25]

Thanks, Margos! I'll be watching this asap. I think the Ghost of Christmas Past is awesome-looking (and spooky, seeing as he can't talk). I've heard some parts are a little spooky/creepy/scary however...

[Margos]

Thanks, Margos! I'll be watching this asap. I think the Ghost of Christmas Past is awesome-looking (and spooky, seeing as he can't talk). I've heard some parts are a little spooky/creepy/scary however...

Well, the Ghost of Christmas Past sort of whispers, and it is hard to understand what he's saying. He's not that spooky, though. But yeah, I jumped a couple of times, but I don't think it's quite to the level of frightening to give anyone over the age of 5 nightmares.

[Babaloo]

On a side note, I thought the ghost of Christmas future was very scary. I loved this movie, but the whole time I kept thinking "I feel bad for all the kids in here". Some even got up and left since it made them cry...

I never thought of Naveen's butt expansion as crude humour. When I saw it in the trailer I was a bit disappointed but I just thought that it was Naveen transforming into a frog (now I know better), but I did think that the whole Ray joke was crude. But I think that's just a way of getting kids to want to watch it, since many of today's children films are full of crude humour, so I actually think it was a smart move.

And about being nominated for Best Picture, it sort if does suck that PatF doesn't even get a chance, but if an animated movie did get nominated this year because of the nominee list expanding, I really think Up would have got it either way. I actually wanted PatF to do better than Up, but I think people "overrate" Up and really want to do well. Now before anyone says anything, I liked Up, but I think people overreact on how "amazing" it is. Just a personal opinion.

Something that made me laugh about one of the reviews I read was a particular line, "The Princess and the Frog is still showing women who can't get by without men." I thought that was so funny since Tiana is supposed to be the most independent and powerful female in a Disney movie, and everyone else's reviews say she is! I think critics need to stop going to see the movie with a pre-determined mindset about the whole race and gender aspect, and just watch the movie as it's meant to be: A Disney CHILDREN'S movie! I'm pretty sure kids aren't going to go to the theater and say "Mommy, that girl needed a man to help her achieve her dreams!" or "Daddy! Why is the black princess so well respected in a time where racism was a major issue!"

[Margos]

I don't know, I think that Ray's "crude humor" really isn't as much about pandering to children as it is that character's personality and background. He's not refined or cultured, he's a rough-around-the-edges Cajun who lives in the depths of a swamp. If he's gonna make a joke, it's gonna be "crude humor." Anything else really wouldn't fit.

[Disney's Divinity]

I think that's the whole point of Naveen's character. He is supposed to be rather conceited, but on the adventure realizes he should have self-control in his life. I personally like it and think it's a rather interesting direction for a Disney prince. Also, judging by Mama Odie's song, Tiana herself isn't all that perfect either, so they both learn a respective lesson which I think helps to balance out their characters and not make it that one-sided.

Well, the idea of a conceited/flawed prince isn't really that original (Beast and Aladdin were both examples of that; Kuzko, too, though he's not a prince). Let's just say, I haven't been feeling the love for Naveen--hopefully he's better in the movie.

I find the idea that Tiana needs to learn something, too, makes the movie somewhat more original. Belle, Jasmine, Pocahontas, et al, seem to never have anything to learn to correct their behavior. They're usually already perfect. Having the two characters develop because of one another, I think, will add a realistic touch to the story.

Something that made me laugh about one of the reviews I read was a particular line, "The Princess and the Frog is still showing women who can't get by without men."

I'm curious: did they find the fact that most male protagonists end up with a woman halfway through their respective films degrading to men?

I guess love itself is sexist--we must abolish it!

[Babaloo]

I'm curious: did they find the fact that most male protagonists end up with a woman halfway through their respective films degrading to men?

I guess love itself is sexist--we must abolish it!

LOL it's so true! I don't understand...it's a LOVE story!! You can't have a love story with one person! Well unless you're a weirdo...

[estefan]

The negative reviews for the film are so ridiculous. Not because they're negative. I have no problem. It's the fact that everyone of those critics are concentrating on Tiana's race rather than actually, you know, watching the film.

In fact, The Princess and the Frog has actually gotten a "seal of approval" from Armond White (notorious for giving ridiculously negative reviews to great films and vice versa):

http://www.nypress.com/article-20657-ba ... witch.html

[ColorsOfTheWind]

I think that's the whole point of Naveen's character. He is supposed to be rather conceited, but on the adventure realizes he should have self-control in his life. I personally like it and think it's a rather interesting direction for a Disney prince. Also, judging by Mama Odie's song, Tiana herself isn't all that perfect either, so they both learn a respective lesson which I think helps to balance out their characters and not make it that one-sided.

Well, the idea of a conceited/flawed prince isn't really that original (Beast and Aladdin were both examples of that; Kuzko, too, though he's not a prince). Let's just say, I haven't been feeling the love for Naveen--hopefully he's better in the movie.

I think the originality of Naveen comes from the fact that he's very much conceited in his looks, along with being rich and spoiled. I don't recall any Disney princes who have been caught up in their looks as much as him.

I do think that Naveen is much better in the movie...well, as the movie progresses. In the beginning, he is rather conceited and selfish, just like we've seen in all the footage. But, as the movie goes on, you really see a change in his personality. His change actually happens MUCH earlier than Tiana's, I'd say. By the end of the movie, I was probably about just as much in love with him as Tiana was.

[pap64]

And yet, he still focused on Tiana's race as an issue. :\

[Margos]

That Armond White review sounded like someone was just trying to see how much nonsense could fit on a single Internet page. Tiana's race is a complete non-issue, and pretending that it's so important is, in fact, racist. Race really doesn't matter, or at least it shouldn't, which is why they can make movies with different ethnicities doing different things. Jeez!

[Poody]

I think the originality of Naveen comes from the fact that he's very much conceited in his looks, along with being rich and spoiled. I don't recall any Disney princes who have been caught up in their looks as much as him.

What about Edward? I find Naveen and him similar, only Naveen is a lot more... hoish.

[Babaloo]

As I was reading his review, I kept asking myself, "Where's the review for the actual movie?!?!?". I think it's completely irrelevant to the movie, and the fact that he put so much emphasis on race, was as Margos said, racist. It think people don't realize that they're being racist for saying things like that.

[estefan]

Agreed. The negative "reviews" aren't actually reviewing the film, but rather Tiana's skin colour. In my mind, the Rotten Tomatoes rating is 100%, because no way should those reviews count or matter, especially when they're not providing legitamate arguments and not talking about the film as a whole.

[Babaloo]

I actually like that Naveen is...hoish , and conceited. It adds a new type of character to the Disney animated roster, and feels a little more real. And he doesn't even stay like that through the whole movie. I think that he seems like a very likable character, just because of that twisted charm he has.

[pap64]

Here's my issue with the reviews that focus on the racial issues. I am a reviewer for Nintendo World Report. One of the things they tell us is to FOCUS on the game. In other words, do no focus on its hype, its developers, its publisher or ramble about issues not related to the game, because people want to know if the game is good or not, not to learn about your personal issues or thoughts. Focus on the game, mention its qualities and flaws in a calm and professional manner.

These reviews that doing the opposite, focusing on the racial issues in order to inform on the movie's value. This is an unfair thing to do. It doesn't tell me that the movie is good or bad, it's telling me about the issues the author has with race, and I don't care about that. Let me know about the story, the characters, the music, the animation. Are they good? How does the movie shine? Details!

Also, these critics fail to realize that at one point, the story was more "appropriate" to the era. Tiana was Maddy, and she was a chambermaid for Charlotte, a WHITE woman. People complained. The story was changed so that Tiana was still a low middle class woman but still better than a chambermaid. And now people are complaining about that!

[SmartAleck25]

These critics like to find a single flaw and turn it against the entire movie.

I didn't know that she was Charlotte's slave! They did change it for better though. I'm also confused about something. In the sneak peek on the Snow White Blu-ray, it seemed like Charlotte was kind of belittling Tiana and teasing her. I find it a wonder that they are "best" friends. But it seems that they still are in the present day. Tiana seems to envy Charlotte's wealth and power and innocence.