60's & 70's Aspect Ratios (from Sword in the Stone)

[jpanimation]

I thought I would end the night with some good news.

Despite the terrible misframing of "Darby O'Gill and the Little People", it appears that "One Hundred and One Dalmatians" was, in fact, supposed to be screened open matte all along!

That's right, the original theatrical aspect ratio for the premiere release of 101 dalmatians is 1.33:1. This means that the platinum edition DVD release of the film is in the original theatrical aspect ratio!!! YAY!!!

Despite the fact that this film received a matted widescreen release in the late 1970s, I personally feel that the original theatrical aspect ratio of 1.33:1 was intended and therefore animated with such in mind. I want the fullscreen image...because that is the way it was originally seen!!

I'm not all hardcore widescreen...I'm just hardcore "original aspect ratio". LOL!

Cool and I agree OAR all the way. Pillarbox it, letterbox it, whatever it take to present it the way it was intended.

[KubrickFan]

I thought I would end the night with some good news.

Despite the terrible misframing of "Darby O'Gill and the Little People", it appears that "One Hundred and One Dalmatians" was, in fact, supposed to be screened open matte all along!

That's right, the original theatrical aspect ratio for the premiere release of 101 dalmatians is 1.33:1. This means that the platinum edition DVD release of the film is in the original theatrical aspect ratio!!! YAY!!!

Despite the fact that this film received a matted widescreen release in the late 1970s, I personally feel that the original theatrical aspect ratio of 1.33:1 was intended and therefore animated with such in mind. I want the fullscreen image...because that is the way it was originally seen!!

I'm not all hardcore widescreen...I'm just hardcore "original aspect ratio". LOL!

For some reason I do think it's odd. Every major film studio produced their movies in widescreen from the fifties. Why would this be the exception?

[disneyfella]

I remember reading somewhere before that 101 Dalmatians was fullscreen because it had something to do with the xerox process first utilized in that film. It does seem strange that such a big production was instructed to be shown fullscreen, especially during a time when widescreen had well been established as the norm. But as stated earlier, I personally support the OAR...be it widescreen, fullscreen, etc.

If you look at 101 Dalmatians in context, Lady and the Tramp was a CinemaScope picture, and Sleeping Beauty was a Technirama 70 picture. That means that the cameras used to film the animated pictures were already widescreen. The film negative itself encoded a wider picture.

When 101 Dalmatians, the next animated picture, was filmed, they used no such camera. Just imagine the discussion at the time of the release of the film when they realized that they had a framed the film for a fullscreen release. I suppose the integrity of the art prevailed and a fullscreen film was released. Sometime between 101 Dalmatians and The Aristocats, Disney began the practice of using a 35mm camera to shoot the animated films, but framed them to be matted for a widescreen release. This means that either The Sword and the Stone or The Jungle Book became the first animated film to utilize this matting of animated films technique.

[AlwaysOAR]

I just wanted to let those who are interested know that I will be receiving the following pressbooks/presskits:

The Jungle Book (1967 premiere original pressbook)

The Horse In the Gray Flannel Suit/ Winnie the Pooh and the Blustery Day (1968 premiere original pressbook)

Oliver & Company (1988 premiere original presskit)

I should be receiving them within the next couple of weeks, though I won't be back to the states till the second week of December, so look for some info from me around the week of Dec. 6.

I'm most interested to know whether or not the Winnie-the-Pooh short was shown theatrically in the academy ratio, or matted at, I assume, 1.75 to 1. The Blustery Day debuted as the short before The Horse..., the reason it is with THITGFS on the pressbook. I think that probably all three shorts that made up the Many Adventures of WTP were shown matted upon their theatrical debuts, which would mean of course that the 1977 movie would have been shown in the same ratio, along with the animation tying the three shorts together.

The pressbooks/presskit should give us the theatrical aspect ratio these films would have been shown in, and hence the way they should be presented first and foremost on DVD/ Blu-ray releases.

Anyway, for those who care....I'll have info in about a month.



I thought I'd repost this, from the OAR of Disney films? thread, in this thread, I had forgot about it. It pertains more to the work Disneyfella has already done in regards to collecting info from pressbooks/presskits in finding out the correct theatrical ratios for the Disney films.
Perhaps these two threads should be combined under OAR of Disney films thread? As they cover the same topic. If so, then whoever can delete this thread. Thanks.

edit: I meant of course, delete this post, if this thread were to be combined with OAR of Disney films? thread, as I posted this same info under that thread as well.

[goofystitch]

I'm excited to hear what the press books said. Have a good trip!

[AlwaysOAR]

I'm excited to hear what the press books said. Have a good trip!

Thanks. I work overseas here, so I'm looking forward to a little R&R back in the states. Yeah, I'm eager to find out what the pressbooks say too.

[disneyfella]

That is exciting news! I've been eyeing The Jungle Book pressbook for a while now, but they always seem to be a bit expensive for me. I'm extremely anxious to read how it was originally framed.

A word of warning, though. The pressbooks will almost always have the projection instructions inside the front cover. The "press kits" on the other hand will usually just have production information. This is still extremely cool and offers behind the scenes information about the production (of which Oliver & Company has no making of features so you'll have loads of info to share).

A few pressbooks, however, have been without projection instructions as well (i.e. I have the "Savage Sam" pressbook and it doesn't list any projection instructions that I've found in it).

Collecting the press release materials, though, is how I've been going about trying to discover how these films were framed, projected, advertised, etc. It is kind of tedious but offers a wealth of behind the scenes information in gathering this info.

On that note, I've got a big box of pressbooks coming to me including:

Robin Hood - the original 1973 press release materials
The North Aventure Irregulars
Charley and the Angel
The Strongest Man in the World
and several rereleases including Song of the South, Peter Pan, and Bambi

I'll try and post as I find out the info.....

Thanks AlwaysOAR!! I feel like I'm not alone in trying to establish Disney history here

[AlwaysOAR]

That is exciting news! I've been eyeing The Jungle Book pressbook for a while now, but they always seem to be a bit expensive for me. I'm extremely anxious to read how it was originally framed.

A word of warning, though. The pressbooks will almost always have the projection instructions inside the front cover. The "press kits" on the other hand will usually just have production information. This is still extremely cool and offers behind the scenes information about the production (of which Oliver & Company has no making of features so you'll have loads of info to share).

A few pressbooks, however, have been without projection instructions as well (i.e. I have the "Savage Sam" pressbook and it doesn't list any projection instructions that I've found in it).

I wasn't aware of that on the presskits, though maybe we'll luck out with Oliver & Co. and it'll have the projection instructions for the correct ratio. Sorry to hear about that "Savage Sam" pressbook though. Was that the only one you've received so far like that?

On that note, I've got a big box of pressbooks coming to me including:

Robin Hood - the original 1973 press release materials
The North Aventure Irregulars
Charley and the Angel
The Strongest Man in the World
and several rereleases including Song of the South, Peter Pan, and Bambi

I'll try and post as I find out the info.....

Thanks AlwaysOAR!! I feel like I'm not alone in trying to establish Disney history here

You're welcome. I felt like I wanted to contribute something, if only a little, to finding out the correct theatrical ratios for the Disney films that everyone is unsure about. I look forward to finding out about Robin Hood, for that one along with TJB, I did purchase recently on their latest DVD releases, on the assumption they were released in the correct theatrical ratios.
I would like to find the pressbooks for The Ugly Dachsund/ Winnie the Pooh and the Honey Tree and The Island at the Top of the World/ Winnie the Pooh and Tigger Too! premieres. This would answer the question for all three WTP shorts as to their theatrical aspect ratios. And of course, finding the pressbook for the Many Adventures of WTP as well. I will have to keep a lookout for them.

Do you think this thread along with the OAR of Disney films? thread should be merged under the OAR of Disney films? thread? I don't know anything about how or who would be able to do it. It seems like they should be as it covers the same topic.
On another note, should a Disney Pressbook/Presskit thread be started? I think it would be good to be able to go and refer to it for general projection instructions and production information. The first post could have a list of all of the DACs(not Dinosaur though, as it is of my opinion it should not be counted amongst the DACs), and a list of the other Disney films that could be updated by the author as far as the correct theatrical ratio(s) of those films. Anyway, just a thought...

[AlwaysOAR]

Well...

I've received the original pressbooks/kits for 1967's The Jungle Book/Charlie, The Lonesome Cougar, 1968's The Horse In The Gray Flannel Suit/ Winnie The Pooh And The Blustery Day, and 1988's Oliver & Co.

In both TJB and Horse, the only instructions for exhibitors goes as follows...

NOTE TO EXHIBITORS: The publicity stories which appear in this pressbook have been prepared by Walt Disney Studios exclusively for your use. Working together with the other exhibitors in your city, you may service these to your news media on a guaranteed "exclusive to you in your area" basis.

I could find no info concerning projection instructions on the correct aspect ratio anywhere in those pressbooks, nor any in the Oliver presskit.

I'm especially disappointed with the two pressbooks from the 60's, as already confirmed by Disneyfella, 1961's 101 Dalmations and 1970's The Aristocats both had the aspect ratio instructions for those. So it's not like Disney decided at a certain point in the 60's not to print those instructions in their pressbooks.

[AlwaysOAR]

I've updated the previous catalog of aspect ratios with "Lady and the Tramp/Almost Angels" combo re-release/premiere information and thought I'd repost the list of VERIFIED aspect ratios. I just looked over the list again, and it seems like, of all the information I've been able to gather, only five have been released in the proper aspect ratio...who is running the catalog over there at Disney? Whoever it is, they need to be fired and replaced with someone cheaper who can do a better job. I'll gladly and humbly propose myself ::ninja::

Just wondering when you're taking over running the catalog, someone knowledgeable needs to.

"Lady and the Tramp/Almost Angels" 1962 Combo Re-release/Premiere Information

(NOTE: When "Almost Angels" premiered in theatres it was on a double bill with "Lady and the Tramp")

"Mr. Exhibitor Please Note
For the best possible viewing project

"Lady and the Tramp", in CinemaScope, at Aspect Ratio 2:35 to 1
Then, for "Almost Angels", switch to Aspect Ratio 1:75 to 1"

(NOTE: "Lady and the Tramp" is available in the widescreen 2.35:1 aspect ratio on the Platinum Edition DVD. "Almost Angels" is not available on DVD. Tell Disney you want it, and released in the proper framing of 1.75:1. Call Disney at 1-800-72-34763.)

I believe you meant L&TT in 2.35:1 is on the Limited Issue, as the Platinum has, I thought was correct, the original 2.55:1 ratio, and a 1.33 pan and scan, instead of the 1.33 academy ratio Lady was also shown in.

I thought that Lady was shown in theatres, upon it's intial release anyway, in 2.55:1 and a reformatted for academy ratio 1.33:1. Was it also shown upon it's initial release in 2.35:1 also?

[KubrickFan]

I thought that Lady was shown in theatres, upon it's intial release anyway, in 2.55:1 and a reformatted for academy ratio 1.33:1. Was it also shown upon it's initial release in 2.35:1 also?

By that time, the original 2.55:1 aspect ratio of CinemaScope was changed into 2.35:1, to allow for an optical mono track (plus 2.35:1 was getting to be the standard screen ratio), if I'm correct. So those viewings happened much more often than the 2.55:1, if those happened at all.

[AlwaysOAR]

I thought that Lady was shown in theatres, upon it's intial release anyway, in 2.55:1 and a reformatted for academy ratio 1.33:1. Was it also shown upon it's initial release in 2.35:1 also?

By that time, the original 2.55:1 aspect ratio of CinemaScope was changed into 2.35:1, to allow for an optical mono track (plus 2.35:1 was getting to be the standard screen ratio), if I'm correct. So those viewings happened much more often than the 2.55:1, if those happened at all.

Actually, Escapay answered in another thread with this...

Anyways, I did a quick re-check at Wikipedia (yeah, yeah) to see if it hd more to say about the addition of soundtracks, and forgot about this:


The original aspect ratio of CinemaScope was to be 2.66:1, shooting the full aperture ratio of a 35mm film. The three-track stereophonic soundtrack, a major selling point of the system, would be interlocked on a 35mm strip of magnetic film, as was the case with a number of 3-D Films of the time.

When it was considered too costly and beset with synchronization problems, Hazard E. Reeves' sound company designed a method of coating 35mm stock with magnetic stripes. Four tracks would replace the original three, with the extra enabling a surround channel. In order to fit these tracks in otherwise unavailable areas of the film, the normal KS perforations were reduced to nearly a square, thus, the CinemaScope, or CS perf was born. With the addition of the tracks, the ratio of the image was reduced to 2.55:1.

In March of 1954, with the demand of drive-ins and hard-top theaters unable to play stereophonic sound, Fox re-designed the CinemaScope print to fit a standard optical track in. With the center point of the imaged shifted due to the optical soundtrack, the aspect ratio of the image was now reduced to 2.35:1.


So it can be safe to assume that Lady and the Tramp with a stereophonic soundtrack was 2.55:1, while the movie is 2.35:1 when with the optical soundtrack. I should probably reword my original blurb for the movie to reflect on that. Also, when you compare Lady and the Tramp to other CinemaScope pictures of 1955 (The Seven Year Itch, Guys & Dolls, Oklahoma!: CinemaScope Version, Rebel Without A Cause, etc.), all of them use the 2.55:1 ratio.

[AlwaysOAR]

Okay, some good news, I received the following pressbooks...

1977's The Many Adventures Of Winnie The Pooh in which it states...

To pooh-ject a pooh-rific picture on your screen THE ASPECT RATIO IS 1.75 to 1

and

1974's The Island At The Top Of The World/ Winnie The Pooh And Tigger Too in which it states...

The Aspect Ratio for "The Island At The Top Of The World" to achieve the best screen image is 1.75 to 1

Now, the ad pad for the Tigger Too short doesn't state what aspect ratio to show it in, but you have to think that it being shown before Island that it would probably be in the same ratio, though it can't be confirmed.

So to recap...


1967's The Jungle Book/ Charlie, The Lonesome Cougar

1968's The Horse In The Gray Flannel Suit/ Winnie The Pooh And The Blustery Day

1988's Oliver & Co.

no projection instructions for those


1974's The Island At The Top Of The World

1977's The Many Adventures Of Winnie The Pooh

The aspect ratio is 1.75 to 1 for those two, with no ratio for the Tigger short that precedes the Island movie.

[goofystitch]

Thanks so much for the info about Many Adventures. When I watch it, I use the zoom feature on my TV to matte it into widescreen. I know it's not perfect, but it's fine for now. Hopefully they will release it again when the new film comes out and hopefully they will offer both fullscreen and widescreen to appease everybody.

[AlwaysOAR]

I had to cut short my post about Island and TMAOWTP earlier for a prior commitment. Anyway, with the info from those two pressbooks, we now know that both are misframed from their original theatrical ratios of 1.75:1 on their DVD releases.
With The Island at the Top of the World, the Anchor Bay release is in both a pan and scan 1.37:1 and a 1.66:1 ratio. The 30th anniversary release from Disney is in a 1.85:1 ratio.
For The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh, both releases from Disney are the open matte 1.37:1 ratio. One or more of the shorts that make up The Many Adv. might have been framed and projected at that ratio, but as of right now there is no info that I'm aware of to say one way or another. It is of my belief though that more than likely all three shorts making up The Many Adv. were probably framed for the 1.75:1.

[AlwaysOAR]

Thanks so much for the info about Many Adventures. When I watch it, I use the zoom feature on my TV to matte it into widescreen. I know it's not perfect, but it's fine for now. Hopefully they will release it again when the new film comes out and hopefully they will offer both fullscreen and widescreen to appease everybody.

Agreed on that, and your welcome. I'd like to see an edition with the original shorts in their theatrical ratios, whatever that might be, and the feature film in it's original theatrical ratio. And of course, the open matte (animated) ratio to go along with it.

[goofystitch]

Maybe when the film comes to Blu-Ray they can offer the short versions via seamless branching.

[The_Iceflash]

Maybe when the film comes to Blu-Ray they can offer the short versions via seamless branching.

I was thinking maybe along the lines of a Disney Treasure. I think a Pooh set consisting of the original short segments plus the feature both in their original aspect ratio with extras would be great.

[disneyfella]

I've got all those pressbooks of mine in the mail in this past month and will be updating the list here throughout the week. I did want to state, though, that almost all of them (including the premiere release of Robin Hood) were framed for a 1.75:1 exhibition.

I'll post exact quotes and availability on an updated list later.

[disneyfella]

This post has been updated and bumped to the end of the thread