The Lion King Discussion

[Avaitor]

Zazu gets no love whatsoever. I scourged Disney World looking for one piece of Zazu memorabilia and came up empty handed.

Heh, I still have a stuffed Zazu that I got from Disney World a few years ago. It's what I would assume to be a life-size plush, and goes along well in my little Lion King collection I started as a kid.

I still have plushes of Simba(baby, possibly life-sized), Nala(smaller), Timon(giant that I believe was made by Mattel or whoever made Disney toys in the 90's), Pumbaa(smaller), and even a Kovu hand puppet. I have no idea where any of these are but I still like knowing that they're around to remind me of how much I liked this movie as a kid.

[Disney Duster]

Holy WOAH, I completely, completely agree with everything Goliath said. So, 2099net, everything Goliath said to you I wanted to say to you. Also, the stuff about Marky. All that was good!

When I was talking about the story being simple, I meant just the story, the main action, not the little things. I'm sorry, did everyone ignore me when I said

Yes, they tell the story with complications, great characters, and their relationships, and great drama, and that's what makes it so great, but actually I think it has a very simple story.

Maybe it's "deceptively simple", like it's simple at it's heart but there's all these complex things going on within the simple premise like in Cinderella and the others.

Oh, but Goliath, I do want to say, Pumbaa's farting had all to do with his character. I mean, that big, stinky, relaxing, funny, life-loving pig goes along with farts. And that's also why he was an outcast, which also made him who he was and had a lot to do with his/the story.

Oh and Super Aurora, yes, I do agree every mouse scene is a little too long, but I do feel each one is necessary. I have looked very deeply at the film and actually all those scenes tie to later events in the story or elements of the story.

Basically, Cinderella giving the mice foods shows her love for them. Her love is returned when they make the dress for her. We need to see them get the beads and sash so that we understand why her stepsisters are able to both show their true evil ripping up her dress, but also have an excuse, hiding the fact that they really don't want her to be happy.

Not to mention, a Disney web site about the film said the mice and cat games are like a metaphor that parallels Lady Tremaine's cat and mice games with Cinderella. Cinderella's the mouse.

[Sky Syndrome]

I really want a CD of all the orchestral scores in The Lion King. Why was that never released? I adore the scores of the hyena chase and Simba battling Scar and they're not on any of the released CDs.

Not to mention, a Disney web site about the film said the mice and cat games are like a metaphor that parallels Lady Tremaine's cat and mice games with Cinderella. Cinderella's the mouse.

Wow! I've never compared Tremaine and Cinderella to Lucifer and the mice.

[Disney's Divinity]

It's kind of hard to compare the mice to Cinderella though. Lucifer is certainly as conniving and bothersome as the stepfamily. But Cinderella never fights back against the stepfamily like the mice fight against Lucifer. She endures, but she doesn't openly fight back against them (not even making a snide comment when they're around). Though mice, in general, are examples of endurance and surviving on basically nothing.

Also, I don't agree that the story to TLK's simple at all. It's much more than about a boy running back and forth. You have his father getting murdered, the circle of life being interrupted, having a facedown with his uncle, joining with the outcasts of the world, etc.

[Goliath]

I suggest we keep this thread on-topic by discussing TLK. For discussion of Cinderella or other movies, there are other threads. One recently started by Marky about the stories in Disney-films, by the way. (Yes, I know I'm not a moderator.)

[Disney Duster]

I forgot to say to Netty that he came up with some powerful or poignant meanings in the film that seem to fit too well to dismiss the film as just a Kimba copy, so well done, and maybe...but remember, I said was talking about the story itself, not what it meant.

If the Lion King isn't simple, then fine, but I don't think the other stories are simple either, and I really for real think The Lion King may be simpler.

It's like...the circle of life is balanced, Simba's dad dies, he runs away, does nothing, Rafiki and his dad says "Remember who you are", he comes back and it's balanced again.

In, like, Cinderella, life is happy, Cinder's dad dies, she does hard work, there's a ball, she almost goes but is stopped, her godmother lets her go, she falls for the prince, she goes back to work, she's locked up, the slipper and the prince make her life happy again.

Notice in both versions I'm leaving out the villain, motivations, and certain moments, but keeping the things important to the tale. Nala does not succeed in helping move Simba at all to return.

Or Sleeping Beauty. Life is happy, Aurora's cursed, she's in hiding, she falls in love, she goes back, she falls to the curse, her salvation is captured, he is freed, she is saved and it's happy again.

Even Snow White. Life is happy, dad dies, Snow White works, is almost killed, runs away, does work and fun, gets poisoned, prince comes to save her and life is happy.

I counted the commas (the ones after actual story events), and even if you gave The Lion King another comma after "does battle/almost dies", it still is short.

Maybe it's just me, but The Lion King, a great told story with lots of drama and perhaps lots of meaning, just seems to also have such a simple story.

[Disney's Divinity]

In, like, Cinderella, life is happy, Cinder's dad dies, she does hard work, there's a ball, she almost goes but is stopped, her godmother lets her go, she falls for the prince, she goes back to work, she's locked up, the slipper and the prince make her life happy again.
Or Sleeping Beauty. Life is happy, Aurora's cursed, she's in hiding, she falls in love, she goes back, she falls to the curse, her salvation is captured, he is freed, she is saved and it's happy again.

Even Snow White. Life is happy, dad dies, Snow White works, is almost killed, runs away, does work and fun, gets poisoned, prince comes to save her and life is happy.

More like: The father dies, Cinderella is beat down by her stepfamily (oops, mark that out--no villains), her fairy godmother helps her go to the ball, the prince tries to find the girl, and the slipper fits.

And: Aurora is cursed, she falls in love while in hiding, pricks her finger, is awakened.

Or: Snow's dad dies, she runs into the woods, lives with dwarves, is poisoned, and then awakened.

If the Lion King isn't simple, then fine, but I don't think the other stories are simple either, and I really for real think The Lion King may be simpler.

And I really for real am starting to think you're going insane.

[Disney Duster]

I think you could've taken out "there's a ball" in Cinderella's, and put "Simba does battle/almost dies" in The Lion King's, but that's it.

I didn't think I needed to explain, but I left out certain things that weren't important to the story in each summation. For instance, Simba falling in love doesn't move the story forward. But for each fairy tale, actually, falling in love is necessary for the plot, often the heroes need it to be revived and get the happy ending of the story.

I truly still feel The Lion King is simpler, but if you must insist they can all be simplified the same, then I will only accept that none of them are as simple as far too many people say they are.

[Super Aurora]

]And I really for real am starting to think you're going insane.

You just started to realize that??


Anyway, Reason Duster think Lion King is Very very simple is because of the way the story is set up. The Lion King seems to go by arcs and the environment represent that arc. Grassland>graveyard>Stampde>Jungle>Dead pride land.

[Disney Duster]

I would personally love further explanation of this whole arc thing.

Location did have something to do with what I was thinking, because it seemed like Simba ran from home, had fun in a jungle, then went back home. Pardon me if I think the elephant graveyard actually didn't have much to do with the story, it's Scar's domain but he doesn't kill anyone, capture anyone, or move the story there. Zazu is captured at Simba's home where the battle also takes place.

I see places representing parts of the film in every film, at least the ones I remember well. I could name a whole number of locations like that for the films I think are more complex/less simple.

Castle, gift box, forest, cottage, tower, forbidden mountains (and the dungeon, and the forest of thorns, and the cliff?)

Chateau garden, attic, foyer, palace, palace garden, palace entrance and steps.

Queen's castle, forest, cottage, (dungeon?) Prince's castle

[Super Aurora]

I would personally love further explanation of this whole arc thing.

Location did have something to do with what I was thinking, because it seemed like Simba ran from home, had fun in a jungle, then went back home. Pardon me if I think the elephant graveyard actually didn't have much to do with the story, it's Scar's domain but he doesn't kill anyone, capture anyone, or move the story there. Zazu is captured at Simba's home where the battle also takes place.

I see places representing parts of the film in every film, at least the ones I remember well. I could name a whole number of locations like that for the films I think are more complex/less simple.

Castle, gift box, forest, cottage, tower, forbidden mountains (and the dungeon, and the forest of thorns, and the cliff?)

Chateau garden, attic, foyer, palace, palace garden, palace entrance and steps.

Queen's castle, forest, cottage, (dungeon?) Prince's castle

Problem with your list is that it's not structurally built where it become easily identified and the audience can easily see it. Here's good prime example. Look at Lion King 1/2, have you notice that Pumbaa and Timon through out the film went through all the major key point parts of the original Lion King? Half the joke in that movie is right there.

I highly doubt it would work same way for Slepping Beauty or Snow White or Cinderella as you're claiming.

[halfbreed3614]

I really want a CD of all the orchestral scores in The Lion King. Why was that never released? I adore the scores of the hyena chase and Simba battling Scar and they're not on any of the released CDs.

Not to mention, a Disney web site about the film said the mice and cat games are like a metaphor that parallels Lady Tremaine's cat and mice games with Cinderella. Cinderella's the mouse.

Wow! I've never compared Tremaine and Cinderella to Lucifer and the mice.

Er, I think you missed the point...

[Prudence]

Zazu gets no love whatsoever. I scourged Disney World looking for one piece of Zazu memorabilia and came up empty handed.

Heh, I still have a stuffed Zazu that I got from Disney World a few years ago. It's what I would assume to be a life-size plush, and goes along well in my little Lion King collection I started as a kid.

Lucky you! They did away with the poor bird when I was there!

And I really for real am starting to think you're going insane.

You just started to realize that??

And it's really for real redundant to say "really for real", really, but we're really all mad here and you really should ignore the really useless things I do and say.

There was really a point to that last sentence. "Pointless" sidekicks aren't entirely pointless to all. Every character ever created has at least a couple of fans out there. I know I said that the gargoyles in Hunchback clash with the story, but they've also got their fans. And Timon and Pumbaa aren't completely Tip and Dash. Dash doesn't pass gas, if I'm remembering correctly.

[drnilescrane]

Look, shoot me for rumour-mongering but one of the D23 events is "The Lion King Music Program - a fun and insightful panel discussion about the role The Lion King's unforgettable music score played in making it one of the most heartwarming animated classics of all time." For all I know it could be Don Hahn gushing about Elton John and Tim Rice for an hour, or they could be having a serious discussion about Hans Zimmer and Lebo M. This makes me think they can't possibly discuss the score like that with no legitimate way for us to really listen to it... Maybe finally a D23/iTunes exclusive release for the ENTIRE score?

That being said, considering Zimmer is pretty much the Dreamworks mainstay these days I might be getting my hopes up and it might just be Elton mania.

[JDCB1986]

Look, shoot me for rumour-mongering but one of the D23 events is "The Lion King Music Program - a fun and insightful panel discussion about the role The Lion King's unforgettable music score played in making it one of the most heartwarming animated classics of all time." For all I know it could be Don Hahn gushing about Elton John and Tim Rice for an hour, or they could be having a serious discussion about Hans Zimmer and Lebo M. This makes me think they can't possibly discuss the score like that with no legitimate way for us to really listen to it... Maybe finally a D23/iTunes exclusive release for the ENTIRE score?

That being said, considering Zimmer is pretty much the Dreamworks mainstay these days I might be getting my hopes up and it might just be Elton mania.

The complete score was available briefly as a promo thing. I have it. I'm sure it's out there somewhere.

[drnilescrane]

Look, shoot me for rumour-mongering but one of the D23 events is "The Lion King Music Program - a fun and insightful panel discussion about the role The Lion King's unforgettable music score played in making it one of the most heartwarming animated classics of all time." For all I know it could be Don Hahn gushing about Elton John and Tim Rice for an hour, or they could be having a serious discussion about Hans Zimmer and Lebo M. This makes me think they can't possibly discuss the score like that with no legitimate way for us to really listen to it... Maybe finally a D23/iTunes exclusive release for the ENTIRE score?

That being said, considering Zimmer is pretty much the Dreamworks mainstay these days I might be getting my hopes up and it might just be Elton mania.

The complete score was available briefly as a promo thing. I have it. I'm sure it's out there somewhere.

We all have it I'm talking about a proper retail copy, not some 128kbps mp3s that a friend of a friend ripped from an Academy CD or a $400 eBay auction.

[Marky_198]

But all in all, most Walt-era films are about character-interaction. You can see this in The Jungle Book, which has virtually no plot at all, but it's still one of his best films because of the relationship between Mowgli and Baloo.


You leave out a lot of Marky's criticism. You only reply to one word he used, "slapsticky". The difference is that, in the older films, the 'slapsticky' things were part of a character or told us soemthing about that character. It derived from him/her, or the situation he/she was in. It flowed naturally from the action. That's very different from Pumbaa's fart jokes or Hugo make fart sounds with his armpit. And another thing what Marky was trying to say, is that in older films, there was time for beautiful, sincere moments. In newer films, serious moments aren't allowed to be serious anymore. It has to have a gargoyle or a hyena in it to make jokes so that the younger ones aren't getting bored.

].

Thanks Goliath. That IS what I was trying to say.

[Siren]

This is the most hilarious, overly critical review of TLK EVER! Warning, there are a lot of cursing, but its such funny cursing!
http://www.confusedmatthew.com/The-Lion-King.php

He makes some good points. Young Simba is a little Draco Malfoy, save for the fact he's not a bigot, but he's still full of himself. Though I think I'd liken young Simba more to Kuzko than Draco.

[Escapay]

Wow.

Confused Matthew is my new hero.

albert

[JDCB1986]

This is the most hilarious, overly critical review of TLK EVER! Warning, there are a lot of cursing, but its such funny cursing!
http://www.confusedmatthew.com/The-Lion-King.php

He makes some good points. Young Simba is a little Draco Malfoy, save for the fact he's not a bigot, but he's still full of himself. Though I think I'd liken young Simba more to Kuzko than Draco.

Yet he cares enough about it to make a 45 minute video review telling everyone what he hates about it...

Hmm.