Neal Gabler

[Rumpelstiltskin]

Some have perhaps read the Walt Disney biography by Neal Gabler. In the book, he doesn't always describe Disney in a flattering way.

Floyd Norman was one of those working in the studio in Walt's days, and this is what he has to say:

"The "austere and distanced control freak" would better describe former CEO, Michael Eisner.

To be sure, Walt Disney was not my best buddy. I was only a dumb kid when I worked for the "Old Man" at Disney in the fifties and sixties. Yet, I got a pretty good sense of the man by just hanging around.

Walt was always full of surprises. I doubt if anyone could have predicted what he would do next. I can tell you this, however. He damn sure would have built EPCOT had he lived.

It's too bad Neal Gabler never met Walt. He might have been surprised to learn what a warm, decent and sincere man he would have encountered."

http://animationguildblog.blogspot.com/ ... lt-do.html

[goofystitch]

I read 2/3rds of Neal Gabler's book and I stopped reading it. I would have stopped earlier, but I was waiting to see if he had a point to it. Walt Disney was a human being and nobody is perfect, but Gabler's book really focuses on the negative. To anyone interested in a biography of Walt, I recommend Walt Disney: An American Original by Bob Thomas. It focuses on key moments in Walt's life and his accomplishments instead of every fight he ever had with anybody.

The other thing that really baffled me about Neal Gabler's book was that most people who worked with Walt really admired him. In interviews, they always praise him and many even get teary eyed when remembering him. Walt Disney was a boss and an employer to many people and it seemed like Gabler went out of his way to find the unhappy employees and recount their tales. I get mad when I see Gabler's book for sale in gifts shops at the parks. It is as if Gabler's mission was to tear down Walt.

[Rumpelstiltskin]

I can't remember everything I had in mind when the book was still fresh in my memory, but I wasn't too excited about Gabler's attempts to analyze Disney and his personality.
What he repeated, over and over again like a mantra, was; Disney spent his whole life running away from reality, and by inventing a fantasy land through animation and amusement parks, he had his own little kingdom he could run the way he wanted the real world to be.

According to Gabler, this is all you need to understand the driving force behind the man known as Walt Disney.

I was hoping the book would be objective, which it wasn't. The reason why I still completed it, was that even if the writer clearly had his own mission to follow by writing it, it did contain some interesting stuff about the studio and the early days that actually was objective.

(Maybe I should read Bob Thomas' book as well, but that has to wait till later.)

[Trumpet Joe]

What was the name of Gabler's book?

[DisneyLover27]

WALT DISNEY: THE TRIUMPH OF THE AMERICAN IMAGINATION


http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt ... 6&ct=image

[BelleGirl]

I'm reading Gablers'book right now. You may think it's negative on Walt but compared to what some people claim about the character of Walt Disney I think Gabler is still quite balanced. At least he goes a great length in disproving the worst myths that are told about Walt Disney which many think are true (just have a look on discussion boards on IMDB.com).
But it's only the first extended biography I'm reading about Walt, and I'm planning on reading more. Michael Barrier's "The Animated Man"is next on my wish list (Barrier is very critical of Gabler's bio and I've printed a list from his website summing up all mistakes in Gablers's work - I've put it in Gabler's book).

[Goliath]

It's too bad Neal Gabler never met Walt. He might have been surprised to learn what a warm, decent and sincere man he would have encountered."

A warm, decent and sincere man who ratted on (former) employees and colleagues in Hollywood before the HUAC commission, thereby bearing responsibility for the blacklisting and the destruction of countless careers and, ultimately, lives. What a nice, decent man!

Most people don't want to know this. Like people on this forum, who put away Gabler's book, because he was being "too negative". People only want to know the fairytale about "good old uncle Walt", a kind of Santa Claus who only cared about the enjoyment of his audience.

People don't want to know how horrible he treated the employees who wanted to form a union in the 1940's; how he trashed Art Babbitt after he quit the Disney Studio; how he was paranoid about "jews and communists". If you do want to put of the blinders, watch this British Channel Four documentary:

Walt Disney- "Secret Lives"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXA2hWgvZKo

[MagicMirror]

Marc Eliot, who appears in the documentary above, makes Neal Gabler look like gospel in comparison. The most extreme of his allegations have nearly all been disproved (which hasn't stopped his book selling; it's wonderfully juicy stuff to read that he was the illegitimate son of a Spaniard and a Nazi sympathiser, whether it's true or not) by those pesky historians who actually check their sources. Disney was conservative in his opinions, but he wasn't that far right. I suspect Joe Grant - the second biggest creative power at the studio in the Golden Age and also a close friend of the man - or the Sherman brothers - songwriters for Mary Poppins etc. - would have noticed any fierce antisemitism, to name three of many Jews to work at the studio. Eliot's book really only seems reliable in its section on the Disney Strike.

Michael Barrier's biography is the least biased and most accurate Disney biography out there in my opinion - others seem to paint the man as either mentally disturbed or excessively saintly. Though I hear Bob Thomas' book, which I haven't looked at yet, is also worth a read.

[BelleGirl]

MagicMirror,

Thanks for you comment, this is about the same thing I was thinking!

Goliath, I do hope you don't rely for your information on the sensationalism of works like Marc Eliot's?

Me thinks the best thing you can do to try getting to learn more about Walt Disney you should read several biographies, not just stick to one. But you have to pick them out carefully: I would not pick up Richard Schickels' The Disney Version for I know he hates everything about Disney, which naturally makes him biased against the man. One article in Time magazine he wrote several years ago confirmed this.

I believe Walt Disney the man was no much better nor much worse than the most of us.

[Goliath]

Disney was conservative in his opinions, but he wasn't that far right.

I would say that a man who was eager to testify for the HUAC against so-called 'communists' in Hollywood, and who was an FBI-informant to provide Hoover with information about 'communist activities' in the movies industry is far-right.

I suspect Joe Grant - the second biggest creative power at the studio in the Golden Age and also a close friend of the man - or the Sherman brothers - songwriters for Mary Poppins etc. - would have noticed any fierce antisemitism, to name three of many Jews to work at the studio.

"Me, racist?! Oh no, I'm not racist! My neighbour is black and we get along just fine!"

Goliath, I do hope you don't rely for your information on the sensationalism of works like Marc Eliot's?

Oh no, certainly not. But if you have seen the documentary, you have seen the archival footage of Walt Disney testifying before HUAC, right? That's not manipulated by Marc Eliot. You would have seen people who worked with Walt Disney voice their unfavorable opinions about him, about his racism. That's not manipulated by Marc Eliot. By the way, I have read Eliot's book (partly), and the FBI-records are there, in the book.

I respect Walt Disney, the filmmaker. But I don't like Walt Disney, the man. And I don't know why I should. Of course there will be a lot of people who speak favorably of him, because Walt Disney treated them well. But, as you've seen, there are also people who have a diferent opinion on him, because they have different, negative experiences with him. The problem is that most people want to deïfy him, treat him like some kind of God, an untouchable figure, a perfect human being. Like most people on UD. Which is ridiculous.

[Rudy Matt]

I would say that a man who was eager to testify for the HUAC against so-called 'communists' in Hollywood, and who was an FBI-informant to provide Hoover with information about 'communist activities' in the movies industry is far-right.

And I would say anyone who gloats about piracy and ripping intellectual properties from the internet is a liberal communist.

Why do you say Walt was eager to testify? And do you dispute the validity of what he did say? It was proven beyond doubt that Sorrel was funded by commmunists. Walt was right. He was asked if the strike against his company was influenced by commnists, and he said yes, and Sorrell was later proven to have accepted money from commmunist sources.

"Me, racist?! Oh no, I'm not racist! My neighbour is black and we get along just fine!"

You've got your own problems. Your high horse is unwarranted.

But if you have seen the documentary, you have seen the archival footage of Walt Disney testifying before HUAC, right? That's not manipulated by Marc Eliot. You would have seen people who worked with Walt Disney voice their unfavorable opinions about him, about his racism. That's not manipulated by Marc Eliot. By the way, I have read Eliot's book (partly), and the FBI-records are there, in the book.

I'm still waiting to see why answering truthfully to a Congressional Committee is a bad thing, or answering questions to the director of the FBI.

I respect Walt Disney, the filmmaker. But I don't like Walt Disney, the man.

And I don't like you, because I don't respect your values and I don't respect anyone who champions intellectual property theft. If I was asked by a Congressional comission if I knew anyone online who gloated about ripping movies or CDs, I'd say sure. His name is Goliath, don't know his real name, but maybe you can subpoena UD.com and get it.

Of course there will be a lot of people who speak favorably of him, because Walt Disney treated them well. But, as you've seen, there are also people who have a diferent opinion on him, because they have different, negative experiences with him. The problem is that most people want to deïfy him, treat him like some kind of God, an untouchable figure, a perfect human being. Like most people on UD. Which is ridiculous.

As if you're untainted and untouchable. Right?

[Goliath]

Rudy Matt, why this attack on me? Since when have I become the subject of this thread? You're just trying to shift the subject of this thread. I'm not the person who is the subject of biographies that get discussed here.

You have totally discredited yourself by going after me personally, attacking me personally, just because I have a different opinion than you on a filmmaker who's been dead for over 40 years! If you have a problem with me, for whatever reason (I certainly never gave you any reason), just ignore me. But this attempt to go after me is pathetic.

That you are even saying that a person who doesn't mind if somebody downloads a movie is a "liberal communist", proves to me what kind of a nutjob you really are. Anybody who would be so stupid to use an expression like "liberal communist", which is a contradictio in terminus, and would use it in relation to a trivial issue like downloading, clearly has no clue what either liberalism or communism means. Such a person is clearly only parotting talking points handed to him by facist 'news' outlets like Fox News or right-wing hate radio.

Anybody who is defending the 1950's witch-hunts against the so-called, largely imaginary, 'communist threat' in the US and especially in Hollywood is either delusional or mean-spirited. And I say mean-spirited, because the infamous HUAC hearings have ruïned the careers and lives of countless of people, who were just minding their own business and harming nobody. And it's people like you, with your silly accusations about 'communism' (the Cold War is over, by the way!), who have contributed to the destruction of the lives of those filmmakers. Walt Disney was one of them, one of the 'friendly witnesses', together with other rats like John Wayne and Ronald Raygun. I'll never forgive him for that.

[Super Aurora]

And I would say anyone who gloats about piracy and ripping intellectual properties from the internet is a liberal communist.

Somebody needs to go back and check his sentence again.

As if you're untainted and untouchable. Right?

Y halo there, Matt Rudy!

[Rudy Matt]

So it's okay to go after Walt personally, but not you. Okay. Walt's dead, can't fight back. I'm not dead. I'll fight back on his behalf.

Sorrell was a communist. Walt told the truth. You brag about stealing films on the interent. I told the truth about you.

Deal with it.

[MagicMirror]

"Me, racist?! Oh no, I'm not racist! My neighbour is black and we get along just fine!"

Honestly, it's like debating the poor man's PapiBear...

The FBI informant story = true.

The racist story = unsubstantiated.

Walt was staunchly anti-union and anti-communist. He was also ruthless when necessary. Any attitudes that we today may see as racist or sexist would have been normal in terms of the standards of his time.

I dislike the 'Santa Claus' image of the man as much as the 'Jew shootin' bastard' image. Having read about his life I think personally I would have found him rather difficult. I also believe that his temperamental nature was to the detriment of some of his films. There are a few accounts in John Canemaker's books on the artists and animators who worked at the studio in which Walt comes out looking less than perfect. The fact that he put Ken Anderson under so much stress that Anderson had a heart attack is one example.

I respect Walt Disney, the filmmaker. But I don't like Walt Disney, the man. And I don't know why I should. Of course there will be a lot of people who speak favorably of him, because Walt Disney treated them well. But, as you've seen, there are also people who have a diferent opinion on him, because they have different, negative experiences with him. The problem is that most people want to deïfy him, treat him like some kind of God, an untouchable figure, a perfect human being. Like most people on UD. Which is ridiculous.

I've been trying to find a post on this forum which hails him as 'some kind of God, an untouchable figure, a perfect human being', and the closest I can find are the posts by Disney Duster - who hails him as a great filmmaker, and doesn't praise or make any mention of his actual character.

[BelleGirl]

"Me, racist?! Oh no, I'm not racist! My neighbour is black and we get along just fine!"

Honestly, it's like debating the poor man's PapiBear...

The FBI informant story = true.

The racist story = unsubstantiated.

Walt was staunchly anti-union and anti-communist. He was also ruthless when necessary. Any attitudes that we today may see as racist or sexist would have been normal in terms of the standards of his time.

I dislike the 'Santa Claus' image of the man as much as the 'Jew shootin' bastard' image. Having read about his life I think personally I would have found him rather difficult. I also believe that his temperamental nature was to the detriment of some of his films. There are a few accounts in John Canemaker's books on the artists and animators who worked at the studio in which Walt comes out looking less than perfect. The fact that he put Ken Anderson under so much stress that Anderson had a heart attack is one example.

I respect Walt Disney, the filmmaker. But I don't like Walt Disney, the man. And I don't know why I should. Of course there will be a lot of people who speak favorably of him, because Walt Disney treated them well. But, as you've seen, there are also people who have a diferent opinion on him, because they have different, negative experiences with him. The problem is that most people want to deïfy him, treat him like some kind of God, an untouchable figure, a perfect human being. Like most people on UD. Which is ridiculous.

I've been trying to find a post on this forum which hails him as 'some kind of God, an untouchable figure, a perfect human being', and the closest I can find are the posts by Disney Duster - who hails him as a great filmmaker, and doesn't praise or make any mention of his actual character.

Good comment, MagicMirror! Clear, to the point and realistic.

Goliath, I could just as well say (paraphrasing your comment): "Most people want to demonise him (Walt), treat him like some kind of nazi, a throug-and through rotten figure, a wicked human being. Like most people on IMDB and Youtube. Which is ridiculous." That's equally true and untrue.

[Rudy Matt]

Sorrell admitted he took money from communists and used them to fund his union organizing. This is the man who told Walt he would turn the Disney studios into a dust bowl.

It is perfectly understandable that Walt would see the strike against his stuido as communist funded. Walt testified that Sorrell told him he used funds from Communist sources to fund a strike in 1937. Sorrell himself admitted he was funded by communists.

Walt was asked a question by a Congressional body and he told the truth. I don't blame Walt for participating in the hearings. The horror of the HUAC was the fact it existed at all, and Americans were asked to inform on other Americans political views. Walt took an oath to tell the truth before his testimony, and he told the truth.

@$$holes with little to no understanding of American history beyond what's sensationalised and spoonfed to them see Walt testifying before Congress as proof he was an ultra-Right Wing reactionary. They haven't read the full testimony. I have.

"We have to keep the American labor unions clean. We have to fight for them."
--Walt Disney

[Goliath]

Rudy Matt, if you want to "tell the truth" about me, start a topic named 'Goliath' in the Offtopic section. If you want to defend your paranoia and outdated beliefs about the 'communist threat', start a topic about 'Communism' in the Offtopic section. This thread is about Neal Garbler's view on Walt Disney. Don't ruïn it.

MagicMirror, I think your reply is spot-on. Note that I didn't say Walt Disney was a racist. I just pointed out that having Jewish employees (and he hired Asian and black employees, too!) working for you doesn't mean you are automatically not racist. I have troubles with Sunflower in 'Fantasia' and of course with 'Song of the South'. You're absolutely right if you say that that was the standard in those days and every filmstudio did it, but that doesn't make it any less racist. If they (Walt) intended it to be mean-spirited is a different question entirely.

I think you and I agree much more than you would think.

BelleGirl, I don't think you would find much people who would want to paint Walt Disney 100% in a negative light. Yet I'm convinced you would find many who would treat him as a perfect, flawless human being.

[Rudy Matt]

Rudy Matt, if you want to "tell the truth" about me, start a topic named 'Goliath' in the Offtopic section. If you want to defend your paranoia and outdated beliefs about the 'communist threat', start a topic about 'Communism' in the Offtopic section. This thread is about Neal Garbler's view on Walt Disney. Don't ruïn it.

I'm not "paranoid" about communism - people who openly champion intellectual property theft are communists by definition. They don't believe in private ownership rights, they believe they have a right to take property from others because those others "make too much money", hence there is an inequity in income and the inequity validates the taking of their property. That's straight out of Marx.

As for the Gabler book, I thought it was pretty damned good. I can understand why Diane is pissed off about it, and can especially why she's pissed it is being sol inside of Disneyland - - but here's the thing. Walt was a very private man, and only a select few know the real Walt. If you take the extreme negative views held by the malcontents who were jealous of him, or angry with him, or who were so gullible they believed every rumour floating arounf the studio, and then you take the glowing reports of the people who worked with closely for years, I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.

I'm personally just sick and tired of people taking the HUAC testimony and bashing Walt about the head. Sorrell was a communist, he took money for communists to fund strikes against various companies, he even bragged about it. Walt testified truthfully. What's the big deal? I don't blame Walt, I blame the Congressman who started the process to begin with.

[Disney Duster]

Just comin' in to say Tim who always does much research told me Walt hired a very PC-man to work on Song of the South. But he got into arguments with another man working on it who threw out most of his ideas.

So...at least with this live-action flick, I guess Walt may or may not have known of it.

I saw Song of the South and didn't see the big problem. Maybe I don't know the big problem. If the problem is because the slaves are happy...wait, aren't they actually working to get money, because it's after they were freed? You wouldn't be happy you were recently free and making money?



Sunflower...yea, that looks pretty bad, but oddly some other centaurettes were black, too, and beautiful and not subserviant? Don't forget, black doesn't always mean dark skin. There could have been some "black" blue or purple centaurs? Feature-wise?

On that note, I wish Walt had the scenes for Fantasia re-animated like he re-animated the Big Bad Wolf, instead of...what did he do to alter the scenes in Fantasia?

Speaking of, I don't see what's so anti-semitic about the Big Bad Wolf disguise. It's a stereotype, and a rather old one. He did animate an old tale. Seriously, it's the kind of thing some Jewish people might've thought was funny too..

I also don't see why you would do something really offensive to a race while you had people of that race working for you.

I bet if they really found it racist, they would leave. Who would want to be around something so offensive, if it was so? The could make money somewhere else, really.

Who wants to piss of their workers...