According to University of Michigan Researchers...

[Neal]

The world doesn't work like that.

See, if Disney made an animated movie with gays, there'd be no way for parents or anti-gay Christians to avoid it.

If they go to a Pixar film, or a Blue Sky Disney film, they'll see ads for it. They can't avoid ads and they can't skip a movie just because of the ads - and even if they were warned of the ad, how could they time it just right to miss the ad but see the film?

Disney will want to have walk-around cast members dressed up as the characters from this film. If they don't have the characters, gay activists will question if Disney was really proud of their film or not. But anti-gay parents and Christians can't avoid walk-around characters. So what? Anti-gays and Christians should just stop going to the theme parks?

Disney will want merchandise for the film. Parents who shelter their kids from gays and anti-gay Christians can't stop going to toy stories or Wal-Mart, they won't be able to avoid merchandise for the film.

It simply couldn't work.

I'm sure there are some racist parents who aren't too pleased with Princess/Frog (I actually read one white woman's forum post saying she wouldn't let her daughter see it).

Yes, that's sad and it's wrong, but the world still has its prejudices.

It's great we're finally to the point we can have a black president and a black heroine in a Disney movie, but that took over 50 years. And that still has a lot of controversy.

We aren't to the point where we can do that for gays. The minute Disney made a gay movie they'd lose half their audience, I'm sure of it. Between anti-gay Christians, homophobics, and conservative parents - they'd take a hit.

Disney's image has always been squeaky clean with no swearing or obscenities, no dirty fecal humor, nothing anti-Christian or pro-any one political group or belief.

Gay rights is simply still too touchy of a subject for them. They wouldn't ruin themselves with a gay-character film, but they would do significant damage. Damage they wouldn't risk.

I'm not saying that is right or fair, but it's true. We all saw what happened to PBS with the "Postcards from Buster" fiasco. Disney won't dare repeat that.

You have been really defensive to me. Seriously, I'm on your side. But the fact is - the world isn't ready for a gay Disney movie. That may be dissapointing and hurt your feelings, but it's true. Sorry. I'm sympathetic to gay issues and pro-gay rights, but I'm also not blind to how the world works and where the mentality is at right now - and the mentality is still against a Disney film with gay characters.

[Disney Duster]

Yes, you have said some things that I felt bad about and felt a need to speak back on. But at least now I know you think gay people, no matter how few you think there are, deserve attention...? And no, we're not as small as you think, gay is everywhere I've realized.

As for the ads, uh, yes, there will be ads. But they are only ads. Ads for movies parents will not let kids see show up all the time, they just don't take their kids to see it. If a child sees the ad and begs to see the movie...then Disney has shown that one kid is fine with gay people! I wouldn't mind if the ads didn't show much of the romance, making it look like some buddy film between two prince friends or something, like Disney already has The Prince and the Pauper. Lots of gays would complain, but I wouldn't, and they'd still have to be happy such a film is made.

The only problem would be parents accidentally taking their kids to what they think is a buddy film, and getting a surprise. But early in the movie the boys might say, "Mom, Dad, you know how you two love each other? I feel the same exact love for my friend." Oh, son, that's great, who's the lucky girl? "He's a boy." What?! "Mom, Dad, I feel the love you two both feel for each other, for him. What should I do? They would hate and banish their sons, and the parents in the audience would say "Yea, that's what they should do!", but then see that's not what they should have done, or the two sons are tried to be helped by their parents to stop being gay, but they can't be stopped, and they take both the parents in the film and in the audience on a whole journey where they realize, through the movie, they can't be changed, God made them that way, and true love can happen between men and women and men and men and women and women, and this true love conquers all.

Disney could also choose when and where to show the ads. Gay people will complain at the lack of ads everywhere unlike the rest of their films, like some people who are black already complain about The Princess and the Frog, but at least gays will be getting such a movie.

As for the theme park characters, some characters people want are seldom seen already, but I would be fine with Disney just letting them out at Gay Days, or certain days. Disney let's conservative parents see gays kissing in their parks already. Like I said, Disney does lots of gay things, some Christians know about it, the crazy ones don't allow any Disney at all, but most will just choose which Disney product they let their kids experience. "No honey, we will not see let you get Prince Mark and Prince Jim's autographs!" Such characters would only be designated to a certain area, as many characters are designated to certain areas or pavilions.

As for the merchandise, yup, there's lots of things in stores parents don't want their children to see.

I don't think Disney can take a gay movie just yet either, I think The Princess and the Frog needs to come out first. But after that, and maybe after it digests in people's minds and the canon of classic Disney films, maybe it will be time.

Like I said, Disney could make a movie that shows why gays should be accepted, show they have the same love for each other as any other couple, and help make the world tolerant of gays in the first place, changing some of those straight parents. A movie that teaches why you should see movies with gays in the first place.

[xxhplinkxx]

But it kinda irks me that its not even seen as a sin anymore.

Yesterday I was making out with my boyfriend and told him I was a sinner.

[goofystitch]

Disney Duster wrote:

As Disney's Divinity said, there was Brother Bear's native American magic. The Princess and the Frog will have voodoo. I personally disagree with showing any religion or spiritual beliefs in a film meant for everyone, one reason being it will always alienate anyone who doesn't believe in those, but showing a people in a positive light, and saying they love the same way anyone else loves is fact, not belief.

I don't think that is true at all. I can identify with characters in a movie who don't have the same religious beliefs that I have. Different religions shouldn't make you feel alienated. Heck, freedom of religion is the reason America was founded in the first place. That's part of why our country is so special. So what does it matter if the magic in a film is Native American or Voodoo or Wiccan or any other type of magic that is associated with a religion? The fact is that it is magic nonetheless and it moves the story along. Plus, I can't imagine Native American's represented using a different type of magic and in New Orleans, Voodoo is part of the local history, heritage, and culture. It should be represented.

As a gay man, I don't think the time is right for a Disney movie about a gay romance. Heck, the world only recently became ready for independent gay movies to become mainstream (Brokeback Mountain, Milk). I would say that until you see multiple mainstream gay movies per year across different genres and MPAA ratings, the world simply isn't ready. And as I stated before, I don't think there needs to be one because people should be able to identify with characters in movies regardless of their sexual orientation.

Growing up, the two Disney movies that were my favorites were Peter Pan and The Little Mermaid. Peter is a boy who defied his parents and decided to never grow up by running away to Neverland where he could live forever. Ariel is a girl who wants to be something she is not and to love somebody that her father doesn't approve of. I would say that both characters and films are easy to identify with for gay people because at their core, their journey is our journey. Defying what the world expects us to be by being who we really are or want to be. The characters don't need to be gay for their story to strike a deep emotional chord in us.

I don't think it is the same as needing racial diversity amongst the princesses either. One time when I was at Disney World, the castle show was going on and next to me was a black girl around 6 years old dressed as Cinderella. Obviously, she loved the princesses and wanted to be one, but when the princesses came out on stage, she turned to her mom and said "How 'come none of the princesses look like me?" I know that animation isn't exclusively for children, but kids see the world differently than adults do. A Hispanic boy who idolizes Prince Phillip might also wish that a Disney prince had his skin color and cultural heritage. It shouldn't matter what the characters' skin color is to adults who enjoy the films, but there are kids who want to feel represented in these films that are a part of every childhood in America. As long as the story and characters are compelling, their ethnicity shouldn't matter to you.

[Siren]

Siren, religion is completely seperate from a people! You suddenly changed to a different subject. Beliefs are completely seperate from people, race, or orientation. Showing people as they are, and showing how they are equal to everyone else, in love and everything else human, is completely different from saying one belief is right or works or something. And still, what do you think of The Princess and the Frog? As Disney's Divinity said, there was Brother Bear's native American magic. The Princess and the Frog will have voodoo. I personally disagree with showing any religion or spiritual beliefs in a film meant for everyone, one reason being it will always alienate anyone who doesn't believe in those, but showing a people in a positive light, and saying they love the same way anyone else loves is fact, not belief. And if some close-minded people deny it is fact and say it's belief, it's still not a spirtitual belief, unless they make it one in their closed-minds. In films meant for everyone, they should show that everyone is equal.

Walt Disney himself made the ending of Fantasia less Christian so as not to alienate anyone in his audience. Snow White is quite obviously praying, but she doesn't mention to who (though yes it was obviously intended to be God). I admit Disney seems to just portray the beliefs of the people in whatever setting they choose. European royalty believed in Christ and God, and people in other cultures believed in other things. I suppose that's alright as long as it's not focused on, they don't show their beliefs being what works in or does everything in the world. Aladdin is fine with it's mention of Allah. But Brother Bear and The Princess and the Frog are over-stepping the line. Yet, I'm not complaining, though I wish they would just have the characters be magical, and not say they practice voodoo, even if it's hinted at.

Yes, the subject is different but the principal is the SAME. Disney does not need to make gays happy. They don't have to make women happy. They don't have to make men happy. So long as children enjoy their movies, their job is done. They are not an organization out for human rights, they are a company working to make money.

And really, it upsets you voodoo is in Princess and the Frog. Do you even know anything about real voodoo or do you learn it all from movies? Everyone knows if you practice voodoo you are automatically evill, sacrifice animals, make zombies, and can possess dolls. How do we know all this? Movies. From zombie movies to Child's Play. VooDoo is and will always be vilified. But just as there is a dark side of Christianity, known as Satanisim, there is a dark side to all major religions. I know people who practice voodoo and they are nothing like you think. Actually, you wouldn't even know they practice voodoo. They could be anywhere...where you work, at your school...they can be teachers and shop owners. Because they are normal, good people. Princess and the Frog just joins the long list of taking the dark points of voodoo and exaggerating them.
Just like Hunchback did with Christianity. Showing men of power and faith abusing and killing others. Doesn't make me think all Christians are like that.

It doesn't bother me voodoo is in Princess and the Frog because I know its....hold on.....let me spell it out....F-I-C-T-I-O-N. Yes, it has a basis of truth. Like how Wizard of Oz has a witch riding a broom. Wiccans do use brooms in spells and historically it was believed they could actually fly on them (though it was really just some natural drugs making them think they could fly) I am Wiccan. I am a witch. Yet I love the very movies that vilify my very beliefs. Why? Because its....fiction. There's that word again.

Back to gays.....I still stick by my and other's open minded opinions here, let the gays pool the money and get the investors and do their own animated movie the way THEY want it. Frankly, if Disney did do it, it would stir nothing but controversy. Disney can't do a damn movie about a black girl without someone bitching about it. I am sure both gay supporters and haters would complain about how Disney does a gay movie. Hell, look at all the complaints about the gay pug in Beverly Hills Chihuahua. Gays complaining about why they had to have a "flaming homosexual dog" in the first place....thus adding to more stereotyping...just like Disney wanted "Maddy" to be a maid....Lord have mercy, you'd think MLK Jr himself rose from the dead and strangled that idea out of Disney. Disney is SMART not to do a movie focusing on gays that is aimed at children.

[Siren]

But it kinda irks me that its not even seen as a sin anymore.

Yesterday I was making out with my boyfriend and told him I was a sinner.

Tell me more, tell me more! Did ya get very far?

[xxhplinkxx]

Yesterday I was making out with my boyfriend and told him I was a sinner.

Tell me more, tell me more! Did ya get very far?

We made out under the dock!






And the car, the couch, the kitchen, the shower, the pool...

[Siren]

Tell me more, tell me more! Did ya get very far?

We made out under the dock!






And the car, the couch, the kitchen, the shower, the pool...

*sighs* Well whatever you are doing, your doing it right. I wanna sin too! Dammit! I wanna be the Lilith of the internet! Love me too!

[Disney Duster]

goofystitch, by alienation I meant there are going to be more people in the audience who have a problem with certain beliefs of one religion working miracles or doing things in the film than people who don't.

Also by alienation I meant it's just one more thing that makes people not unified, not share the same common feeling or thought.

Also, uh, there are no gay children who'd like to see princes kiss in a film? Mkay, tell that to the many gay people who said they knew they were gay since they were children (they just didn't know it was called "gay"). Maybe it was 6, maybe it was 10, maybe it was 3 like my mom said was the age she wondered about me, and I knew I was different somehow.

Siren, woah, I never said Voodoo was bad. You made an assumption about me, but it's okay. I just wish Disney used fairy tale magic than any real religious magic. Though I realize it's also fantasy voodoo.

Witches in Disney films never said they used witchcraft or magick. They just used magic. Yes, you bet there's a difference.

I don't mind the queen from Snow White's magic because she never says she's using power from a god or devil, it's obviously a made up fairy tale version of magic, even if she were to call it witchcraft, which she never does.

I suppose the voodoo could be treated the same, if no gods or spirits are mentioned, but since the evil queen never said she was using witchcraft or satanism, it's just known as made up magic, I think so The Princess and the Frog should follow suit. That's just the best way to do it.

[goofystitch]

Disney Duster wrote:

Also, uh, there are no gay children who'd like to see princes kiss in a film? Mkay, tell that to the many gay people who said they knew they were gay since they were children (they just didn't know it was called "gay"). Maybe it was 6, maybe it was 10, maybe it was 3 like my mom said was the age she wondered about me, and I knew I was different somehow.

Ummm... you know I'm gay right? And like you, I've known I was different since I was very little as well. I never said anything about little gay boys not wanting to see two princes fall in love. I just said the world isn't ready for it yet and that it won't be for a very long time. You need to lighten up. You've been rude to a lot of pro-gay people in this thread simply because they don't feel the same as you do, which is that Disney needs to make a movie about gay people right this very instant. They don't and they won't. It's not the end of the world. What needs to be present in a Disney movie for audiences to enjoy it is a good story and compelling characters, whether it is a love story or not. No film studio is going to spend $100 million on a film that is targeted towards 7-10% of the population and will offend almost 50%. Not even Disney. You have to be patient and wait for perception to change. We are the minority.

For all that the gay community has fought for and of all the things that we still need to fight for, the absence or presence of gay Disney characters is pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things and shouldn't impact your ability to be a fan of Disney.

[Neal]

Thank you, goofystitch. I was getting irritated because I'm 100% pro-gay, but felt like I was still being attacked otherwise. I point out facts - that gays are a minority (but that it's okay, they are still great people), and that the population isn't ready yet for a gay Disney film - but I just kept getting responded to as if I was a homophobic jerk.