The Princess and the Frog Discussion - Part II

[pap64]

In hopes of steering the discussion away from the racial issues the film seems to have inspired...

The other day I was on Deviantart looking at some Princess and the Frog fan art. One piece had some commentary on how the film might be very cliched to a fault. This lead to a discussion about how this could affect the film, how it might not be new enough and how the new Disney management might now be able to handle such a project.

In my honest opinion while the film will have familiar elements of past Disney films (that's what they are going for, and if you don't believe me, watch the trailer again and tell me which four films they are mentioning) I think it has enough new elements that will make it refreshing and fun.

The first is the setting. The other fairy tale movies took place in ancient, exotic locales that remained true to the original source of the tale (Beauty and the Beast in France, Snow White in Germany/Europe etc.). The Princess and the Frog however takes place in New Orleans. Not only New Orleans, but Jazzy 1920s New Orleans. It seems the film will use this to its advantage and will make the film unique among the other movies.

Second is the story. Even though it is inspired by the fairy tale the film seems to differentiate enough that its almost its own, unique story. It combines voodoo as the film's magical element and while controversial it is unique and daring.

Finally are the characters themselves. And I'm talking about more than just their skin color. Naveen seems to be a very different kind of Disney Prince. He has an attitude, and a spoiled one at that. The Disney Prince always seem to go for the good natured kind, and Naveen seems to be the opposite of that. Tiana is also an interesting female lead. She seems happy with her life, and her main desire is to own a restaurant, an interesting desire since the other princesses always desired to meet someone, be free or something of the life.

So what I am trying to say is that even if Princess and the Frog ends up playing it by the book it will have more than enough innovation to make it stand out among the Disney canon.

[witchkitten]

Personally, I prefer my fairy tales to take place pre-twentieth century or even pre-nineteenth century. I'm disappointed that Disney chose New Orleans in the 1920s. While I'll probably still enjoy the film (and will definitely see it in the theatres to encourage Disney to continue with 2D animation), I don't think I'll like it as much as the other Disney princess films. Also, I wish it were a musical and they hadn't used Randy Newman because I've never been a fan of his music. Still, I'm looking forward to the film (I was happy to see the trailer before Up) because it's Disney, it's a princess film, and most of all it's 2D animation. If only they would do Rapunzel in 2D. I would really look forward to that.

[pap64]

See, one of the reasons I am willing to give Randy Newman a chance is because he can write some pretty damn good songs, as long as he doesn't sing them.

Cats Don't Dance had an amazing musical score that incorporated Broadway Tunes, Jazz, ballads and many other musical influences. The lyrics were also powerful and very entertaining.

James and the Giant Peach also had some really great songs.

I think people are judging Randy because of his work at Pixar. Everyone should note that the films he wrote the music for weren't really musicals. Toy Story had him singing all of the songs, while the other movies he had just one song at the end of the film.

Its more than likely that his work in Princess and the Frog will be very strong because the story is design to resolve around song, an area he is particularly good at. Not to mention that other people will be singing his songs. No offense to Randy but he isn't a good singer and its perhaps one of the reasons why his music is disliked by some Disney fans.

So before you think of Randy Newman and remember his Pixar work go back a few years before his involvement and you will learn that he has many hits under his belt.

The Princes and the Frog should be fine. I'm not worried.

[blackcauldron85]

I usually forget that Newman did the James and the Giant Peach songs, which are quite excellent. I do enjoy the songs in Toy Story but I do think that it's his voice that turns people off when it comes to his music. As much as I love Alan Menken, I don't think that John Lasseter (as much as I have a I-like-him-but-I-don't attitude towards him) would sign off on Newman's songs for the film if they sucked.

[pap64]

I usually forget that Newman did the James and the Giant Peach songs, which are quite excellent. I do enjoy the songs in Toy Story but I do think that it's his voice that turns people off when it comes to his music. As much as I love Alan Menken, I don't think that John Lasseter (as much as I have a I-like-him-but-I-don't attitude towards him) would sign off on Newman's songs for the film if they sucked.

Just to give you an idea of how his singing affects the quality of the song go see the Ultimate Toy Box edition of Toy Story 2. The DVD has the demo recording of "When Somebody Loved Me". The Randy Newman version just lacks the heart and passion the official version has. I mean the Sarah Mclaulan (sp?) version complete breaks your heart due to the passion Sarah brings to the lyrics. You feel sad, heartbroken and sympathetic towards Jessie and its because the lyrics combined with the singing made it powerful.

If he brings that passion into the PatF's songs we could be in for something special.

[singerguy04]

When I first heard that Randy was going to do the score I wasn't going to judge until the movie came out, but after some reviews of the music from the test screenings it doesn't seem that the music is going to be anything special. I've read something like 3 or 5 reviews and all of them said great things about the film except the music. needless to say i'm just not looking forward to the music aspect as much as the total package.

[pap64]

When I first heard that Randy was going to do the score I wasn't going to judge until the movie came out, but after some reviews of the music from the test screenings it doesn't seem that the music is going to be anything special. I've read something like 3 or 5 reviews and all of them said great things about the film except the music. needless to say i'm just not looking forward to the music aspect as much as the total package.

I am well aware that reviews of the early screenings don't say much about the music. But they also said the movie in general needed more time in the oven before release.

I may look as if I am defending Randy Newman. I am not his biggest fan but I also think its unfair how Disney fans are dismissing his work simply because he's not Alan Menken. Music is also a very subjective thing, meaning that what may be weak for others might be rousing to another person. I mean, I think the musical score in Pocahontas is weak save for "Colors of the Wind". But many people love it either way.

Hell, Alan Menken did Enchanted and while it was a good musical score and the songs got nominated for the Academy Award they weren't THAT amazing either. And people still liked those songs.

[singerguy04]

I wasn't really saying Menken would've been a better choice either. Sure Menken has done good work in the past but the man isn't flawless. I mean, he did also do Home on the Range, which all for one song is completely forgettable.

Personally, I think it'd be exciting if there was some new guy that no one's really heard of before. Or Hans Zimmer, that'd be freakin' awesome!

I really like Randy's work with James and the Giant Peach and Cats Don't Dance, but those were kind of a while ago. I just find a lot of his stuff repetitive now, and has a been there done that sound to it. Being that this is a Jazz era film, I just can't imagine it's going to be a completely new side of Randy we've never seen before. I am hoping i'm wrong though. I'm also just not a huge jazz fan overall. I just don't want the whole film to be jazz and only jazz.

[blackcauldron85]

I mean, he did also do Home on the Range, which all for one song is completely forgettable.

I must defend the Home on the Range soundtrack- I think that all the songs are excellent.

http://animationguildblog.blogspot.com/ ... -ears.html

work on Princess and the Frog is wending its way to a conclusion. Staff tells me:

"Rough animation and rough layout are pretty well done on P and F. Rough animation is 95% finished ..."

"The last sequence going through is being animated with clean, tight drawings, and the inbetweening done in-house. They're not doing cleanup on it ..."

"Most of the supervising animators on Princess and the Frog have been picked up for the next project" ...

No cleanup? Is it because it's all digital?

[Disney's Divinity]

I wasn't really saying Menken would've been a better choice either. Sure Menken has done good work in the past but the man isn't flawless. I mean, he did also do Home on the Range, which all for one song is completely forgettable.

You're acting as if one man can save an otherwise forgettable film. Even with that in mind, I still completely disagree with you. The music is the only likable thing about HOTR--"Little Patch of Heaven" has a beautiful melody. Which is why I went to the effort of buying the soundtrack (and I'm not a soundtrack person).

Overall, I think people are exaggerating Menken's flaws to make Lassater's choice of Newman not seem strange. While Pocahontas is easily Menken's weakest work because I don't think it flows together well personally, it still has several great songs ("If I Never Knew You," "Just Around The Riverbend," "Colors of the Wind," and "Savages"). Even "Mine, Mine, Mine" has some temporary charm. As for Enchanted, he did what he needed to do for that film, as it is basically a mimic of past Disney work. So, I would hardly judge him on his work there, though he certainly didn't produce anything to be ashamed of. "That's How You Know" is easily one of my top ten Disney songs at this point, to be honest.

I said a long time ago that Newman could easily do a good job with TP&TF based on James and the Giant Peach and Cats Don't Dance (both of which have excellent songs), but that doesn't mean his choice for a Disney film isn't strange. It's funny, 'cause I doubt you'll ever see Menken chosen to do a Pixar film, so why is the other way around supposed to be an unquestioned decision?

And we do have to take into account that several reviews have mentioned the music as somewhat lackluster (or just not mentioned the music at all, which is as equally damning for a "musical" film). Somehow, I doubt all the reviews were based on an Alan Menken bias. I don't think the music is going to get changed much between now and December--I would think only the animation is being finished at this point in time. So it's entirely possible that TP&TF's soundtrack will be forgettable. We'll just have to wait and see. Sometimes you hit, sometimes you miss.

Also, I don't think Newman's a horrible singer personally. Different voices, different reactions. I personally liked his songs for Toy Story because they fit the mood of the movie and are kind of iconic of that film now. I don't want him singing everything, but I don't think there's anything wrong with him singing certain songs that his voice is suited to.

[Kyle]

No cleanup? Is it because it's all digital?

Doubt it. it probably just means their working tighter than usual. They tend to work loose so they can get as much footage out as fast as possible, but considering their on their final shots, they don't need to rush, they can take more time to make it clean in a single pass, and it saves time and money by not having to pass it off to the clean up artists.

[Mooky]

New stills from the movie!!!

http://www.ropeofsilicon.com/movie/prin ... og/stills/

[nomad2010]

New stills from the movie!!!

http://www.ropeofsilicon.com/movie/prin ... og/stills/

beautiful! it's looks like classic disney. i think these put an end to the whole "it looks direct to video seuqel-ish" debate.

[pap64]

These new stills are beautiful! I love that shot of Tiana and her parents. The room is so classy, so warm and so detailed...

And that shot of froggy Naveen and Tiana dancing on the lily pads? I am smelling a new classic Disney scene.

This movie is going to be magical.

[blackcauldron85]

Awww, Ray is providing the lighting for Tiana and Naveen!!! <3

Ooh, and I haven't seen the turtle character before! I wonder if he or she will have a decently-sized part, of if he or she is shown for only a brief while...

Hahaha, Tiana has to paddle the boat, while Naveen plays the lute.

At first, I thought the guy in the green jacket and purple pants & umbrella was Dr. Facilier, even though it didn't quite look like him, but no- Facilier is behind that guy!!!

Aww, look- it's Tiana's parents!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And Tiana's doll is on the table- I find that exciting!!! I like it when characters have dolls (like Lilo's Scrump).

Thanks soooo much, Mooky! I am beyond excited for this movie!

[singerguy04]

I wasn't really saying Menken would've been a better choice either. Sure Menken has done good work in the past but the man isn't flawless. I mean, he did also do Home on the Range, which all for one song is completely forgettable.

You're acting as if one man can save an otherwise forgettable film. Even with that in mind, I still completely disagree with you. The music is the only likable thing about HOTR--"Little Patch of Heaven" has a beautiful melody. Which is why I went to the effort of buying the soundtrack (and I'm not a soundtrack person).

Overall, I think people are exaggerating Menken's flaws to make Lassater's choice of Newman not seem strange. While Pocahontas is easily Menken's weakest work because I don't think it flows together well personally, it still has several great songs ("If I Never Knew You," "Just Around The Riverbend," "Colors of the Wind," and "Savages"). Even "Mine, Mine, Mine" has some temporary charm. As for Enchanted, he did what he needed to do for that film, as it is basically a mimic of past Disney work. So, I would hardly judge him on his work there, though he certainly didn't produce anything to be ashamed of. "That's How You Know" is easily one of my top ten Disney songs at this point, to be honest.

Ok, so you went out and bought the soundtrack. That doesn't mean that it's a overall great soundtrack. It's just that you personally like it. I didn't mean to push my opinion upon the general audience, but I just haven't run into many people who think of Home on the Range when they think of great Disney music.

Also, I couldn't disagree more with your point with Pocahontas. I love it, doesn't mean that everybody else does but i do, lol.

The Photos are great. I think this film is going to look beautiful!

[toonaspie]

See, one of the reasons I am willing to give Randy Newman a chance is because he can write some pretty damn good songs, as long as he doesn't sing them.

Cats Don't Dance had an amazing musical score that incorporated Broadway Tunes, Jazz, ballads and many other musical influences. The lyrics were also powerful and very entertaining.

James and the Giant Peach also had some really great songs.

I think people are judging Randy because of his work at Pixar. Everyone should note that the films he wrote the music for weren't really musicals. Toy Story had him singing all of the songs, while the other movies he had just one song at the end of the film.

Its more than likely that his work in Princess and the Frog will be very strong because the story is design to resolve around song, an area he is particularly good at. Not to mention that other people will be singing his songs. No offense to Randy but he isn't a good singer and its perhaps one of the reasons why his music is disliked by some Disney fans.

So before you think of Randy Newman and remember his Pixar work go back a few years before his involvement and you will learn that he has many hits under his belt.

The Princes and the Frog should be fine. I'm not worried.

When you think about it, Randy Newman music will probably fit the 1920s New Orleans theme of the film more than Alan Menken would. Okay so I know that's ridiculous since both artists are capable with working in music for a lot of films. I for one prefer the unique style that Disney is using for this Princess film and I hope future Princess films are also given their unique style as well. The medieval European settings can be an overkill sometimes. Heh.

[Escapay]

Found this on the Comcast home page (and yes, it's real, unlike the other "article" I posted)...

• Disney’s First Black Princess Draws Fire
  By Chelsea-Badeau
  Tue, 09 Jun 2009 19:51:58 GMT
  
  After seventy-two years and seven princess movies, Disney finally has its first black princess, Tiana, in the upcoming animated flick The Princess and the Frog. The film is set to open later this year, but the Internet is already buzzing with some cheers and a lot of jeers.
  
  In 1937, Snow White became Disney’s first animated princess. Since then, the majority of movie princesses have been white, although other ethnic princesses have included a Chinese Mulan, a Native American Pocahontas, and an Arabic Jasmine.
  
  The Princess and the Frog, an adaptation of the classic story The Frog Prince, is set in New Orleans in the 1920s. Tiana is a waitress and gifted chef who dreams of owning her own restaurant (and of course there is a frog and some kissing in the picture as well). Anika Noni Rose is the voice of Princess Tiana, and Oprah Winfrey, John Goodman, Terrence Howard and Keith David also voice characters in the movie.
  
  Rumor has it that Tiana was originally going to be a maid named Maddy (short for Madeleine) who worked for a white woman. Critics quickly slammed that storyline, saying it reinforced stereotypes and demeaned black people. John Lasseter, chief creative officer at Pixar and Walt Disney Animation Studios, who is overseeing the project, told the Washington Post that was just a hiccup along the way. He noted that Buzz Lightyear in Toy Story had the name "Tempest" for a bit.
  
  Many are praising the fact that Disney has finally created a role model for African-American girls. "Finally, here is something that all little girls, especially young black girls, can embrace, and that is huge," Cori Murray, an entertainment director at Essence magazine, recently told CNN. "This sends a message that no matter what you look like you can be beautiful, that you can be a princess, that you can be first lady."
  
  However, there is plenty of controversy swirling around this new film, from the too-ethnic name, to the too-light skin tone of Tiana, to the fact that she is a frog for a portion of the movie, to her prince not being black, to the New Orleans setting of the film, to the firefly being seen as a stereotype of an uneducated Southerner.
  
  And some people just hate princesses altogether. The Root Blogger Monique Fields writes “Forget about whether the new Disney princess is black or white. The problem is with princesses. Period.” Fields writes that princess ideals are not realistic and that she would prefer a “dash of reality” mixed into her two daughters’ entertainment.
  
  Some critics are wondering why Disney would choose to set this film in New Orleans so soon after the devastation of Hurricane Katrina.
  
  "Disney should be ashamed," William Blackburn, a former columnist at The Charlotte Observer, told London's Daily Telegraph. "Despite all its resources and experience, it has failed to create a black princess to rival its predecessors. This princess story is set in New Orleans, the setting of one of the most devastating tragedies to beset a black community. And then they throw in the voodoo theme and an alligator sidekick. When you put New Orleans, alligators and voodoo together, there's no beauty there."
  
  The biggest hubbub around the movie centers on the fact that Tiana ends up with a racially-ambiguous prince rather than a black prince. Prince Naveen, from the fictional land of Maldonia, is voiced by a Brazilian actor, who many are saying looks white. Disney says that the prince is not white. Why didn’t Disney use this opportunity to showcase a healthy black couple? Why can’t a black man be seen as a hero? These are just a couple of the questions critics are asking.
  
  In a blog post on AOL's Black Voices, Angela Bronner Helm wrote “Even though there is a real-life black man in the highest office in the land with a black wife, Disney obviously doesn't think a black man is worthy of the title of prince.”
  
  Disney says they are trying hard to make the African American community happy with the movie. "Our first goal is to make a great motion picture," says John Lasseter told the Washington Post. "But we have also worked very closely with a lot of leaders in the African American community, all across the nation to make sure we're doing something African American families will be proud of. It's very important for us to do it right. We've been very careful and cognizant about what we're doing."
  
  There was probably no way that Disney could have avoided controversy with this one, especially considering the history of their relationship with the black community. Disney has often been accused of perpetuating racial stereotypes through the depictions of animated characters such as the hyenas in the Lion King, the apes in Jungle Book, and the crows in Dumbo.
  
  However, I think it’s a good sign that Disney execs finally took that step and created a black heroine, despite the fact that I am sure they realized they were opening themselves up to a firestorm of criticism. Would it have been better if this movie was set in Atlanta and the princess had darker skin, a black prince, and the name Tiffany? Maybe. Maybe not. I will have to wait to see the film before making a full judgment based just on promotional images and a short trailer.

albert

[pap64]

Damn it, Albert! Here I was trying to steer the discussion away from the racial focus and focused on the music and new stills, and you bring it back to where we started!




All kidding aside, the racial issue thing is old and very tired.

[Simba3]

All kidding aside, the racial issue thing is old and very tired.

For realz!! I'm not even interested in reading the articles to hear what people have to say about it anymore. I'm 100% over it. I'm only allowing myself to feel happiness and excitement about this film. From what I can tell, it is gong to be magical, and I can't wait until December to see it.