Pinocchio Platinum Edition Discussion Thread

[ajmrowland]

Yeah, I just noticed how she changed he whole avatar and signature.

[blackcauldron85]

Thank you!

Think for a minute- let's say that there's a little boy or girl (similar to how Pinocchio could have been had Disney not changed his personality- if you've seen the documentary, then you know what I mean) who always does the opposite of what they're told to do. You might think that he or she is just a brat who will learn his or her lesson eventually. Pinocchio had never done the opposite of what he is told, since he had never been alive before! The mistakes he made in the film were the first mistakes that he had ever made in his life. Now, as time goes on, hopefully real boy Pinocchio will have learned not to talk with strangers, for example. But he didn't know the consequences initially; Jiminy and Gepetto could tell him to go straight to school and not talk with strangers, but Pinocchio had no idea what would happen if he talked with strangers...now that he had some bad experiences with strangers, hopefully he learned his lesson and will be a good boy!

[2099net]

He hasn’t had different life-stages; he didn’t go through being an infant and bonding with his father, he didn’t go through the Terrible Twos stage, and he didn’t even go to preschool or kindergarten. I don’t really know what age Pinocchio is supposed to be, in boy years (probably somewhere between 6 & 8 years old?), but he just hasn’t had the life experience a normal boy of his age has had, and the only lessons he really was exposed to were to follow his conscience, don’t lie, and go to school. That should be reason enough for his naivety, right? I mean, the majority of people (and animals) he encounters are out to exploit him, to hurt him, to just be mean to him. He hasn’t had the life experience to deal with this. Sure, one could argue that he was told not to do certain things, but he did them anyway. Sure, he was told to follow his conscience, and he didn’t always listen to Jiminy; kids don’t always do what they’re supposed to do…this is realistic.

I know the reasons for his naivety, but it doesn't mean I have to like him. Where is stands out the most is in his second encounter with Honest John. He's spent the past few minutes wailing about how he got himself into his mess with Stromboli, how he should have listened to his conscience, and then he does exactly the same thing again, with barely a question or second thought. That's not naivety, that's just stupidity.

You say he doesn't know what kidnapping is, and that's fair enough, but after feeling so sorry for himself, he's too easily diverted from going home.

And that's why I say the script has little for older viewers. It is a juvenile telling of the story. Almost everything Pinocchio faces is a black or white decision. Pinocchio doesn't really question anything. What do you see now as an adult Amy, that you never saw as an infant in Pinocchio? I would hazard a guess either very little or nothing. It's not like The Little Mermaid or later Disney films. It doesn't have the multiple levels these films have.

But that's not really fair, it's a film of its time. But that's why I think the script is poor.

If Pinocchio was being made, brand new and without any past baggage, today I can see a number of changes being made. For example when Honest John tempts Pinocchio to a life on stage, instead of appealing only to Pinocchio's vanity, I could see him promising money and riches so Pinocchio could provide and look after his family. It's only a little change, but done right it not only gives us more sympathy for Pinocchio - he's ignoring his conscience but we can see he clearly thinks he is doing right, but it also adds a level of doubt for the viewer. Could Pinocchio be right to ignore Jiminy Cricket?


I'd change bits in the Amusement park too - when Lampwick is destroying the various property, I'd give Pinocchio some doubt. I dunno, he could just observe something like (off the top of my head) "People like my father spend so long making such beautiful things, and yet you destroy them without thought." Not only would this again make Pinocchio more sympathetic and show he can more or less come to the correct conclusions without Jiminy Cricket and based on only what he has seen himself in his short life - even if Lampwick later talks him around them, but it highlights the difference between what are the two main influences on him - Gepetto and Lampwick.

There's other things I'd change too - I'd give a reason Gepetto couldn't take Pinocchio to school himself. I mean, it's his first day at school, and his "father" didn't take him? It's a rather simplistic storytelling device, and not to be too blunt, it doesn't result in much sympathy for Gepetto's plight. Gepetto doesn't know about Jiminy Cricket. At the very least Gepetto could have sent Figaro to keep an eye on his "son". (Only for Figaro to fall foul of Honest John in some way later).

Also Pinocchio's escape from Stromboli is a little too convenient too. There's no real consequence to his imprisonment, like other choices, it happens because the story demands it happens.

Or another. Gepetto et al is swallowed by a whale. It's fantastical, but so is the whole story, so it sort of works. What doesn't work is why on Earth did Gepetto bundle everyone up, and look for Pinocchio on an Ocean? All it needs is one scene of Gepetto talking to someone and being told Pinocchio went overseas for that to make sense. He could even have been talking to Honest John, who lies to cover his tracks. Or seen a poster for Stromboli's show with Pinocchio on it and reading the next engagement would be overseas. As it is, we're just asked to accept the fact Gepetto decides to look for Pinocchio by sailing across an ocean.

That's what I mean by Juvenile. I mean really examine Gepetto in the film and it just falls to pieces.

Gepetto wants a child so badly, yet when he gets one doesn't parent him right just because the story demands it in order to work. Put Gepetto in a situation where he cannot be the parent he should be/wants to be and you'll not change the story, but make it stronger. Motivation and reactions would be stronger. Gepetto would be able to exhibit guilt as well as sadness. Pinocchio's experiences could be as much of a lesson for Gepetto as Pinocchio.


None of any of my suggested changes is changing the story - the story is fundamentally the same, but its adding layers. As I say, I don't hate the film, but I find it hard to connect to Pinocchio at all, or even some of his supporting characters. It's something when you feel a non-speaking cat has more sympathy than the title character or the title character's father.

Most modern family movies are judged on how much "heart" they have (something I've never really understood the definition of) but in my book, Pinocchio has no heart - and I say that because motivations are poor and often overlooked. How can you have emotional attachment to two-dimensional characters?

[Wonderlicious]

Well I didn't listen to my Jiminy Cricket and went and bought the DVD despite telling myself I should wait to get a Blu-Ray player first and then get the Blu-Ray version (considering that would be a good two years though, I suppose it's okay to cave in ). Regardless to say, watching Pinocchio again was a real treat. Lovely story, lovely animation, lovely everything. It's always been a favourite, and it's nice to see it in such a good presentation. I have the 2003 UK Special Edition, and the restoration on that looked rather sterile; not an overall distraction, but quite a shame none the less. However, this one looked actually quite nice; despite what some people say, there was enough warmth and glow in this presentation.

Thanks for the review, Netty! It was a good read. I can understand some of your opinions. To be honest, most films, no matter how good or bad they are, are going to date a bit. Snow White has; The Wizard of Oz has; Citizen Kane has; Star Wars has. It's not so uch a bad thing, it's just that styles change, and in a visual medium such as cinema, it is quite noticeable. Pinocchio often has a bit of datedness (such as some of the dialogue, the look of some of the characters etc), but the fact is, the story's themes are timeless, which is (in my book) more a triumphing factor. It's like A Christmas Carol, Alice in Wonderland, Peter Pan and a good few others in that it's both a fairy-tale fantasy and a critique on the state of the world.

It was also interesting to see Pinocchio again after having read the original Collodi book (in translation, obviously: I can only say "hello, how are you?" when it comes to Italian ). I got it out from the library back in England last Summer, and found it quite a fun read, even if I had some reservations about what the translator did in creating the translation. Although the film does tend to just take a huge chunk of plot elements and create a somewhat new story (something most adaptations of Pinocchio do due to the highly episodic nature of the book), I felt that the film (although toning down some elements) kept the spirit of the book a bit, and arguably improved upon it.

[gregmasciola]

I know the reasons for his naivety, but it doesn't mean I have to like him. Where is stands out the most is in his second encounter with Honest John. He's spent the past few minutes wailing about how he got himself into his mess with Stromboli, how he should have listened to his conscience, and then he does exactly the same thing again, with barely a question or second thought. That's not naivety, that's just stupidity.

Well, Pinocchio does try to tell Honest John that he can't go to Pleasure Island, and when Honest John gives him his "ticket", Pinocchio shakes his head and tries to hand it back. Then at the end, Honest John & Giddeon pick him up and carry him off, so he did try to get out of it at first, but then I always found it weird that once he's on the coach, he's all excited to go.

[ajmrowland]

Well, since he's clearly forced to go, he never really learned how to actually avoid falling for it once he was on the coach.

[blackcauldron85]

What do you see now as an adult Amy, that you never saw as an infant in Pinocchio? I would hazard a guess either very little or nothing. It's not like The Little Mermaid or later Disney films. It doesn't have the multiple levels these films have.

I agree with you about the newer films having more levels than Pinocchio. As far as what do I see now that I didn’t when I was younger, if nothing else, I have a more emotional connection; as I got older, I got more emotional. I didn’t watch Pinocchio as much as other DACs growing up, since I didn’t have it on video, so I can’t really give many examples besides just feeling more for Pinocchio. When he feels alone and sad (like in the birdcage), that just makes me sad. Not that I was heartless as a kid, but still, I feel more now.

I'd give a reason Gepetto couldn't take Pinocchio to school himself. I mean, it's his first day at school, and his "father" didn't take him? It's a rather simplistic storytelling device, and not to be too blunt, it doesn't result in much sympathy for Gepetto's plight. Gepetto doesn't know about Jiminy Cricket. At the very least Gepetto could have sent Figaro to keep an eye on his "son". (Only for Figaro to fall foul of Honest John in some way later).

I definitely think that that’s a good point. One must wonder if Gepetto gave Pinocchio detailed directions- we assume (or, at least I assume) that Pinocchio has never been to the school before; if Gepetto doesn’t show him how to get there, then Pinocchio must have an awesome memory to remember all the directions Gepetto gave him.

Gepetto wants a child so badly, yet when he gets one doesn't parent him right just because the story demands it in order to work. Put Gepetto in a situation where he cannot be the parent he should be/wants to be and you'll not change the story, but make it stronger. Motivation and reactions would be stronger. Gepetto would be able to exhibit guilt as well as sadness. Pinocchio's experiences could be as much of a lesson for Gepetto as Pinocchio.

Well, to Gepetto’s credit, he has never parented before; I don’t know if parenting books existed back then. I definitely agree with you on the story demands Gepetto to be a not-so-attentive father.

[ajmrowland]

What do you see now as an adult Amy, that you never saw as an infant in Pinocchio? I would hazard a guess either very little or nothing. It's not like The Little Mermaid or later Disney films. It doesn't have the multiple levels these films have.

I agree with you about the newer films having more levels than Pinocchio. As far as what do I see now that I didn’t when I was younger, if nothing else, I have a more emotional connection; as I got older, I got more emotional. I didn’t watch Pinocchio as much as other DACs growing up, since I didn’t have it on video, so I can’t really give many examples besides just feeling more for Pinocchio. When he feels alone and sad (like in the birdcage), that just makes me sad. Not that I was heartless as a kid, but still, I feel more now.

Same here.

I'd give a reason Gepetto couldn't take Pinocchio to school himself. I mean, it's his first day at school, and his "father" didn't take him? It's a rather simplistic storytelling device, and not to be too blunt, it doesn't result in much sympathy for Gepetto's plight. Gepetto doesn't know about Jiminy Cricket. At the very least Gepetto could have sent Figaro to keep an eye on his "son". (Only for Figaro to fall foul of Honest John in some way later).

I definitely think that that’s a good point. One must wonder if Gepetto gave Pinocchio detailed directions- we assume (or, at least I assume) that Pinocchio has never been to the school before; if Gepetto doesn’t show him how to get there, then Pinocchio must have an awesome memory to remember all the directions Gepetto gave him.

Well, if you look at the scene again, you'd notice that no parent on-screen actually escorts their kids to school; they all send them off, no matter what.

[SpringHeelJack]

Well, if you look at the scene again, you'd notice that no parent on-screen actually escorts their kids to school; they all send them off, no matter what.

True, but I also presume those children have been to school previously, and were not marionettes the night before.

At least, none of them that I know of. Maybe the blue fairy was busy that night granting humanity all over the place.

[blackcauldron85]

Yeah, the kids' parents surely brought them to school their first time, or at least had showed them how to get there prior to them starting school.

An addition to my last post that I thought of as I was trying to fall asleep last night:

Pinocchio (and Dumbo, to some extent, anyway), differ somewhat from other DACs in that we don't have many scenes that really focus on other characters besides the main character. In TLM, for example, we have scenes that focus on Eric, without focusing on Ariel, and in Tarzan, we focus on the apes and Jane at times, and in Aladdin, we focus on just Jasmine at times, and the list goes on. Aside from the beginning (Jiminy coming in to get warm), Gepetto wishing for a son, and when Jiminy gets his medal, it's all Pinocchio, all the time, pretty much. Just an observation I made, I guess.

[Matt]

I will post this here as well

As promised here is the Deleted Song, Honest John!

Sorry it took so long. Thank GOD for Nero . I forgot all about Nero, which did the trick

ENJOY!
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=542D6XFS

[ajmrowland]

Back on the school subject, This was still a time when parents couldn't wait to get their kids off to school. I feel certain that a kindergartener was either given directions, or went with an older sibling. Maybe the younger kids were given notes, too. It's all weird, but seems perfectly logical.

And the film does focus more on the main character, which is nice.

[Goliath]

Where is stands out the most is in his second encounter with Honest John. He's spent the past few minutes wailing about how he got himself into his mess with Stromboli, how he should have listened to his conscience, and then he does exactly the same thing again, with barely a question or second thought. That's not naivety, that's just stupidity.

If I remember correctly, Hones John pretends to be shocked by the horrible treatment Stromboli gave Pinocchio, thereby cleaning up his own role. Then he and Gideon cheat Pinocchio on believing he's ill and needs a vacation to get better, and that's why he needs to go to Pleasure Island.

What do you see now as an adult Amy, that you never saw as an infant in Pinocchio? I would hazard a guess either very little or nothing. It's not like The Little Mermaid or later Disney films. It doesn't have the multiple levels these films have.

I know this question wasn't directed at me, but I wanted to answer it anyway. What I see now as an adult, is the darkness of the film; the fact that Pinocchio only encounters bad people; that everybody is out to trick him; that the villains never get punished. Just the overall realistic, mature tone of the film I didn't grasp as a kid.

[2099net]

Where is stands out the most is in his second encounter with Honest John. He's spent the past few minutes wailing about how he got himself into his mess with Stromboli, how he should have listened to his conscience, and then he does exactly the same thing again, with barely a question or second thought. That's not naivety, that's just stupidity.

If I remember correctly, Hones John pretends to be shocked by the horrible treatment Stromboli gave Pinocchio, thereby cleaning up his own role. Then he and Gideon cheat Pinocchio on believing he's ill and needs a vacation to get better, and that's why he needs to go to Pleasure Island.

Indeed. But you know the old saying "Fool me once..." Honest John may protest innocence but ultimately Pinocchio vowed to listed to JC more (that's Jiminy Cricket, not Julian Carter), and in the end, doesn't. It's still stupidity.

What do you see now as an adult Amy, that you never saw as an infant in Pinocchio? I would hazard a guess either very little or nothing. It's not like The Little Mermaid or later Disney films. It doesn't have the multiple levels these films have.

I know this question wasn't directed at me, but I wanted to answer it anyway. What I see now as an adult, is the darkness of the film; the fact that Pinocchio only encounters bad people; that everybody is out to trick him; that the villains never get punished. Just the overall realistic, mature tone of the film I didn't grasp as a kid.

And indeed, I praise the Darkness in my initial critisism. But I don't think that counts a multiple levels of storytelling - its still pretty flat. Just dark and flat.

I know its a film of it's time, but the actual script (not the story, the script) would be seen as too simplistic these days.

I also don't think it's mature. Grimm's fairy tales were dark and full of villains, and full of actual violence too. But I don't think that they're mature. (I know, some people read issues of sexuality into them - see the film Company of Wolves for example, based on academic papers I believe) but I still don't think Grimm's fairy tales are mature.

The storytelling of Pinocchio is far from mature - like I say, things happen to progress the story, and we just have to accept them. I know things "happen" in real-life, but generally literature (including great literature) goes to great pains to explain why stuff happens - the motivation behind it, the consequences of it and the pattern of influences around each event. Pinocchio doesn't have any of this for the most part.

And that's not just down to it's age - Bride of Frankenstein was made in the mid-to-late 30's (I can't be bothered to check) and its still one of the best scripted films of all time, which works on so many different levels, its a master class in film scripting. But Bride of Frankenstein is too, somewhat dated in it's turn of phrase - but it doesn't matter, because it has so much more.

I guess what I'm saying is... I know Walt talked about making his animated films for adults as well as children, but I really can't see much evidence of that in Snow White and Pinocchio.

[KubrickFan]

Back on the school subject, This was still a time when parents couldn't wait to get their kids off to school. I feel certain that a kindergartener was either given directions, or went with an older sibling. Maybe the younger kids were given notes, too. It's all weird, but seems perfectly logical.

And the film does focus more on the main character, which is nice.

You can see all the children running towards the school, so Pinocchio could just follow the other kids. Also, the town isn't too big, so it's not like he could get lost or anything. Plus he had Jiminy with him.

[SpringHeelJack]

True, but Gepetto didn't know he had Jiminy with him. In my mind, any kid who lit himself on fire the night before playing with a candle then asked "Why?" until 4 AM should probably be taken to school by a parent, especially considering it was his first day, and 24 hours ago he was a hunk of wood.

[Sotiris]

True, but Gepetto didn't know he had Jiminy with him. In my mind, any kid who lit himself on fire the night before playing with a candle then asked "Why?" until 4 AM should probably be taken to school by a parent, especially considering it was his first day, and 24 hours ago he was a hunk of wood.

Although you are absolutely right, Gepetto not taking Pinocchio to school is just a convention in order for the movie to move forward. If Geppetto had escorted Pinocchio to school and back probably nothing would have happened.

[CampbellzSoup]

I thought at least he could have escorted Pinnoch TO school and then have him give him a hug or something and when Gepetto leaves Honest John comes in for the kill...like not directly to the school but in front of it while Honest John lurked.

[Ioz]

Anybody notice the missing dialog referred to on this site?
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/3523290-post1.html

Are both the Blu-Ray and DVD missing these parts or just the Blu-Ray?

[Disney Duster]

Ioz, many have noticed the missing dialogue, and it is a blasphemous travesty. It is on both the Blu-ray and the DVD...except possibly not in other countries.

I guess what I'm saying is... I know Walt talked about making his animated films for adults as well as children, but I really can't see much evidence of that in Snow White and Pinocchio.

Is it possible that Walt thought he was making these films for adults. He said "adults are just children grown up anyway". I think he believed he could find what appealed to all people.

I've found many different levels and things in Disney films and I guess things that would appeal more to adults whatever that would be.

I also wanted to say, I really like how Pinocchio promises to do something and breaks it. Really, I guess he's such an irresponsible, naughty, selfish, maybe even "stupid" kid, yet, we feel sorry for him. Isn't that great? And by the way, he totally risks his life to save his dad from a giant scary whale in the end, so that totally makes up for everything he did before.