Pinocchio Platinum Edition Discussion Thread

[xxhplinkxx]

It's fun when Disney releases DVD's because it only happens once every 7-10 years!


YAY FOR RE-RELEASES!

:pink::pink::pink::pink::pink::pink::pink::pink::pink::pink:





Now can everyone shut the hell up and enjoy the fact that we have this at all?!

[Rumpelstiltskin]

The blu-ray also includes a normal DVD. Is it really impossible to buy a blu-ray where a DVD is NOT included? If not, I wan't buy it at all. I already have a DVD.

[UmbrellaFish]

It's impossible.

All Blu-Ray editions come with a DVD copy.

[Rumpelstiltskin]

That's frustrating. I really don't see the idea. At least there should be a choice. It will probably be a blu-ray only next time, some years from now, but that's so long into the future that I can't relate to it.

[Escapay]

Is it really that bad to buy a Blu-Ray with a spare copy of the Disc One DVD? Why not give it to a friend or a relative that doesn't care much for bonus features? It's not exactly affecting the price as the Blu-Ray would have an SRP of $35.99 regardless if the DVD (and not even the complete DVD) was included or not.

albert

[CampbellzSoup]

The DVD isn't at any cost to you...at all.

throw it away if it honestly bothers you that much, I always offer to give them to my friends on the forum.

[ajmrowland]

The DVD is for those who did not buy the DVD and don't want top buy the same movie so soon after getting the blu-ray, just so they could watch on a PC/Car player/Portable DVD Player/other tv in the house. It's much simpler and better than the Digital Copy that comes with many movies.

[Escapay]

throw it away if it honestly bothers you that much, I always offer to give them to my friends on the forum.

In that case, have you bought Bolt on Blu-Ray yet? I wouldn't mind having the DVD that comes with it.

albert

[JDCB1986]

What a stupid post... Why would you not buy something because it comes with something else for free ?

"If I have to get something free with it, I won't buy it at all !!"
Seriously ? Give me a break.

[2099net]

Well, I posted this early in this self-same thread, and I put a lot of effort into it, so I'm reposting it now hopefully to get some discussion about the actual movie going:

Well, I'm not ArielsPrince, but here's my analysis of Pinocchio (admittedly based on a 3 year or so memory rather than a recent viewing).

The first thing to note about Pinocchio is that Walt Disney cleverly decided to make a film that was similar to his first film. Indeed Snow White and Pinocchio share many similarities; but they stand far enough apart as to be unique.

The animation and backgrounds are very similar to Show White, both in style and materials used. If you took a human character or background from Pinocchio and placed it inside Snow White, it wouldn't look out of place. Not something that could be said for later films such as Fantasia or Dumbo (to pick the next two feature length classics). Yet despite this similarity (and possibly unification of design) between the two films, only a fool would fail to see the increased artistry and confidence Pinocchio possesses. Considering the Disney animators will still learning their craft, Pinocchio is an outstanding artistic achievement; more so than Snow White which occasionally has sequences that let it down. As I stated, it's been a while since I have seen Pinocchio, but I cannot for the life of me think of one sequence of "bad" animation. The fact that Pinocchio was only the studio's second feature length animation really hits home the skill and dedication of the artists and creative staff involved.

Looking at the films today, its easy to label both as fairytales – but it's important to note that Pinocchio was first published in 1883. Not that long before 1940 when Walt's animated film was released really. Pinocchio could hardly be called a "modern" tale, but neither can it have been described as "traditional" like other Disney fairytale adaptations before or since.

Indeed, if you take the time to sit down and analyse Pinocchio, it has many themes and turns that are absolutely relevant to today. In fact, it shows youth in the 1880's was probably viewed with the same suspicion and, perhaps even, fear by adults of the time as adults today have towards the youth of today.

Think hard about what are the main childish vices shown in Pinocchio; deceit, delinquency and obsession with the celebrity lifestyle. Each and every one of those flaws is still applicable today. In fact, each and every one is probably many times more applicable to today than it ever was in the 1880's or 1940's.

But that's not all; the film also warns against accepting gifts/rides from strangers – something which I'm sure has more relevance in modern times than it ever did when the story was written or filmed.

In short, unlike the totally fantastical nature of Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, Pinocchio is a story written and filmed which addresses specific issues. Yes, Pinocchio is also highly fantastical, but beneath all the fantasy there are real, earnest warnings and lessons. The fact that all of these are has relevant to today's lifestyle as they were then probably shows that Walt was a genius to select Pinocchio as his second film. Or perhaps it just shows Walt lucked out; after all, most success is based on different amounts of luck.

But while I can praise the key themes and morality of Pinocchio as (so far) being timeless, I can't say the same for its implementation. More so than Snow White, Cinderella or Sleeping Beauty, Pinocchio hasn't aged well. I know that statement won't go down well with some readers, but I stick by it totally. Pinocchio just seems dated.

It's not the animation, it's not the songs and it's not even the story (although there's something that doesn't sit quite right with Geppetto to modern eyes – but that's more down to hysterical, sensational media "reports" on paedophiles emphasising suspicion and danger to kids and parents than anything inherently wrong with how Geppetto is presented and written in the movie).

To me, the reason the film has aged so much is the portrayal of Pinocchio.

I said this earlier in the thread, and was knocked back by a couple of so members (and semi-supported by another) but Pinocchio is a child of his times. I know the story, I know the reasons he's presented the way he is. But intellectually knowing these things doesn't help if emotionally they mean you have no connection to the main character of the story.

I've seen people complain about "not connecting" with the character of Chicken Little in Chicken Little, and by and large nobody attacks or feels insulted by this. However, admit you don't have a connection to a Walt era character, and it appears certain members want to shun you!

My main problem with Pinocchio is he's just too reactive. I know it's a challenge to present a character who, by virtue of the story needs to be presented as gullible and naïve, but at no point in Pinocchio do you get the impression the filmmakers are trying to add a little depth to those (story mandated) personality attributes. Sure, Pinocchio slowly wises up and is (literally) a new boy at the end of the movie, but his whole character just seems too simplistic to me. Does simplistic equal childlike? Some would probably say "yes", but I don't think it quite works that way. There is no logic – not even a child's logic – at so why Pinocchio falls for the various scams he's easily led into, and why Jiminy Cricket's advice is so quickly ignored. Yes, the various characters around Pinocchio tempt him by appealing to various vices, but there is not major internal conflict with Pinocchio, despite the fact when watching I get the impression he certainly knows the path he is about to follow is "wrong". After all, even if you don't believe that, he has been told Jiminy Cricket is his conscience, yet he ignores it with an almost casual disregard. That's not naivety or innocence – that's outright stupidity. No film if it was being made today would have a character so obviously stupid (except for Spongebob Squarepants, which I suppose is the exception that proves the rule!)

People say the story is timeless, which I do believe it true, but it doesn't mean that the characters are timeless. This is one reason why stories such as Dickens' A Christmas Carol can be remade in countless variations, with countless characters and in countless eras. The story is indeed timeless, but the original characters are not. Their speech patterns are wrong; some of their concerns and motivations are irrelevant to a modern audience. The character archetypes are correct, but the presentation is wrong. I feel the same is true of Pinocchio.

Which brings me on to the animation filmmakers' false mantra; something I always hear coming from creators when discussing animated films, be they CGI, hand-drawn, expensive big budget epics or small, independent shorts – "The story is all important?" I bring this up because there is no doubt that the story of Pinocchio is complex. It's probably one of Disney's most complex stories – chronologically I would place only 101 Dalmatians as being the next Disney animated film of equal or greater complexity. I mean, the story of Pinocchio has it all. It has key themes about family, responsibility and the identification of what's right and what's wrong. It has intensely emotional scenes and sequences; be the emotion love, fear, sorrow or happiness. Most importantly in my book, it has scares. Scares that probably wouldn't be allowed in a family film in this day and age – which is a little ironic, considering the audience today is considerably more sophisticated and the "fright threshold" has been substantially lowered over the years. It may not be a "traditional" fairytale in the true sense of the description, but it sure feels like one.

However, there is a problem – good as the story itself may be – it is told in a juvenile manner. Artwork and animation aside, there is little to hold the interest of an older viewer. So is it the "story" that is more important, or the "script"? I absolutely maintain that Pinocchio is a better story than Finding Nemo – but I admit Finding Nemo has the better script and ultimately (even though I can see multiple flaws) is a better movie as a result. To put in bluntly, Pinocchio's script is poor. Are we sure Walt Disney was aiming his feature animation at children and adults? I see no evidence of that being the case in Pinocchio.

My final thought – while the Princess movies may have become a Disney mainstay (mainly thanks to in-your-face marketing) it is Pinocchio which is responsible for the Disney "formula" more so than Snow White ever was. Think about it. We have animal sidekick [check], father with absent mother [check], villain[s] with their own goofy sidekicks [check], a benelovant older/wiser entity guiding the hero(es) [check] and a main character who doesn't quite fit in and has to find his own place in the world [check]. All of these, to some extent or another appear in most Disney films since.

There's certainly an argument that Pinocchio was more influential on modern day Disney than Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs ever was.

There are lots of aspects on which Pinocchio succeeds – I've run through them all above. Don't think that I hate the film, because I don't. But the film does fall flat on the most important aspect of a film of this nature – I just have no empathy for the hero, and too me, that is a big hurdle to clear.

[Rumpelstiltskin]

If the DVD comes separately, then I will buy the Blu-ray. But if it is placed inside the same case, I will not. If I give the DVD way, I know there is something missing inside the case, since it was made for more than one disc. I can see there is an empty space there.
If I keep it, I will have a case containing a useless disc. Both alternatives are huge irritants for me. I actually prefer the third alternative: not buying it at all.

Unless Disney starts releasing the Blu-rays and the DVDs in separate cases, if they absolutely have to add a DVD, then I have no interest in them at all.

[CampbellzSoup]

Ok so then don't buy it.

I don't like to say things like this, but your logic has to be one of the dumbest things I've personally read on this forum. The DVD is at no extra cost to you at all...nothing. They're trying to make blu ray the standard, and trying to win over consumers of DVD by including it as well...

So because there is an extra space in the casing that you only open to take the movie out of you don't want the DVD

Am I missing someting??

[JDCB1986]

If the DVD comes separately, then I will buy the Blu-ray. But if it is placed inside the same case, I will not. If I give the DVD way, I know there is something missing inside the case, since it was made for more than one disc. I can see there is an empty space there.
If I keep it, I will have a case containing a useless disc. Both alternatives are huge irritants for me. I actually prefer the third alternative: not buying it at all.

Unless Disney starts releasing the Blu-rays and the DVDs in separate cases, if they absolutely have to add a DVD, then I have no interest in them at all.

Buy a case with 2 disc spaces and give the DVD away... No, wait... Then you will have to find someway to remove "1-Disc DVD" off of the back cover. Because having cover art that misrepresents what is in the actual case is worse than not even having the movie too !

[ajmrowland]

2099Net, I find Pinocchio's lack of logic easily justifiable, as the character is only a day old when all this happens to him.

[pap64]

I saw the complete DVD set last weekend and forgot to post my thoughts on it.

Its amazing how easy it is to take a great film line "Pinnochio" for granted. I saw it and I was amazed at the level of detail and thought that went into nearly every aspect of the film. The characters are very complex. They might not appear to be at first, but look closely and you'll see that they exhibits many real traits that make them wonderful in the first place.

Geppetto might be a kind old man, but he has a sarcastic, prankful and witty side that's a bit subdued but still present. Like when he tells Figaro "Oh, I forgot to open the window". It was mean spirited but definitely adds fun to what would have been a cookie cutter character.

The animation and backgrounds is amazing. You would never suspect that this was Disney's second film! Maybe its the sharpness of the new DVD but I noticed details I completely missed in my many sessions! Like for example, I never noticed that the Blue Fairy was translucent and transparent and if you look closer you can see the background through her! Its a very subtle effect that makes her magical and unique.

I will also agree with many that the movie is very, very timeless, even in its humor.

The DVD set was also quite nice. Even if the set is not as expansive as, say, Sleeping Beauty, the documentaries were very nice.

[SpringHeelJack]

I don't think the problem is that his naivete / lack of logic is unfounded, it's that it makes him difficult to connect to. Netty was saying that he IS too reactionary and simple for much of the movie, not that he doesn't understand WHY that is so.

[blackcauldron85]

Considering the Disney animators will still learning their craft, Pinocchio is an outstanding artistic achievement

I completely agree. I love the multiplane camera anyway (total déjà vu here..did I write this already?), and the shots of Italy give me goosebumps (I don’t know about literal goosebumps, but they sure make me happy!). Something that stands out to me, though, is the Blue Fairy- surely she was rotoscoped, right? It totally looks like she was.

But that's not all; the film also warns against accepting gifts/rides from strangers – something which I'm sure has more relevance in modern times than it ever did when the story was written or filmed.

Well, to SW&t7D’s credit, that movie also warns against accepting gifts from strangers (the apple).

My main problem with Pinocchio is he's just too reactive. I know it's a challenge to present a character who, by virtue of the story needs to be presented as gullible and naïve, but at no point in Pinocchio do you get the impression the filmmakers are trying to add a little depth to those (story mandated) personality attributes.

I understand what you’re saying, and I agree, to an extent. I guess the biggest reasoning for this could be the fact that Pinocchio is a puppet. He hasn’t had different life-stages; he didn’t go through being an infant and bonding with his father, he didn’t go through the Terrible Twos stage, and he didn’t even go to preschool or kindergarten. I don’t really know what age Pinocchio is supposed to be, in boy years (probably somewhere between 6 & 8 years old?), but he just hasn’t had the life experience a normal boy of his age has had, and the only lessons he really was exposed to were to follow his conscience, don’t lie, and go to school. That should be reason enough for his naivety, right? I mean, the majority of people (and animals) he encounters are out to exploit him, to hurt him, to just be mean to him. He hasn’t had the life experience to deal with this. Sure, one could argue that he was told not to do certain things, but he did them anyway. Sure, he was told to follow his conscience, and he didn’t always listen to Jiminy; kids don’t always do what they’re supposed to do…this is realistic.

Artwork and animation aside, there is little to hold the interest of an older viewer

I don’t agree…what makes you say this? A lot of older viewers love this movie! I get more entertainment value out of Disney movies now than I did when I was younger, even the movies I watched all the time growing up. As a grown-up, I understand certain things more…like, (this is the first example that popped into my head) when King Triton destroys Ariel’s grotto; as a kid, maybe I thought that he was just being a mean daddy, but now I understand that he doesn’t want Ariel to get hurt by the world above, that he wants to shelter her.

To put in bluntly, Pinocchio's script is poor.

Again, I disagree, and again, what makes you say this?

is Pinocchio which is responsible for the Disney "formula" more so than Snow White ever was…There's certainly an argument that Pinocchio was more influential on modern day Disney than Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs ever was.

That’s an interesting observation. I’ve never thought of that before, but it seems that you’re right!

I just have no empathy for the hero, and too me, that is a big hurdle to clear.

I guess that answers some questions I had about why you think what you think about the film. I have empathy for Pinocchio…I can’t help but feel for him. He has all these people who, as I said earlier, “the majority of people (and animals) he encounters are out to exploit him, to hurt him, to just be mean to him. He hasn’t had the life experience to deal with this.” He just doesn’t always know what to do, since he’s never been in any situations as a boy before…he just always sat as a wooden puppet in Gepetto’s shop. When he’s crouching in the corner of the birdcage, crying, I can’t help but feel sad for him- he knows that he messed up, but he doesn’t know how to fix it. Luckily for him, he had Jiminy and the Blue Fairy to help him out (even though Jiminy wasn’t of much help, at least he was there for his friend). If I were kidnapped, I’d be scared, too, and I know about kidnapping- Pinocchio probably had no idea that people could get kidnapped- he just didn’t know much at all about the world.

I don't think the problem is that his naivete / lack of logic is unfounded, it's that it makes him difficult to connect to. Netty was saying that he IS too reactionary and simple for much of the movie, not that he doesn't understand WHY that is so.

So you’re saying that Netty’s problem is that he just can’t relate to such a naïve character? I think that his naivety makes me care about Pinocchio more, maybe? Like I know that he doesn’t really know what to do, so I want him to be protected…I know that he doesn’t really know better, that everything is so new to him (as ajmrowland said:

the character is only a day old when all this happens to him

), and it’s sad to watch people take advantage of someone who has no clue about anything.

[SpringHeelJack]

I'm not saying it's Netty's problem, per se, but when you have a character who is totally oblivious to all of humanity's ills for 90% of a story, it makes them harder to connect with. People can only connect to wide-eyed innocence for so long.

[Big Disney Fan]

Who do you think does the voice of Pinocchio in the bonus sections of the DVD, such as the deleted scenes?

[Goliath]

I wanted to say I agree with 'blackcauldron1985'. It's Pinocchio's innocence and naievity (sp?) that makes me feel for him. I think the strongest element of the script is placing this clueless little fellow in a world where everybody he encounters, literally everybody, is out to hurt him in some way. That's what makes the film one of Disney's darkest, I think, and therefore the most interesting. To me, at least.

I like your collage of pictures in your signature, too. I like how you included Penny and Rufus.