The Sword in the Stone Discussion

[Lazario]

Well actually, now that you mention it...

I find it more likable and interesting than several of the more preferred classics / masterpieces, like Lady and the Tramp, Bambi, and Beauty and the Beast.

[Flanger-Hanger]

this is somthing i wrote on this thread about a month ago and i never got an answer.... i dont think ppl saw it and i want to know what u guys think:


reply!

I saw it, way back when

I guess in response I would have to say NO CONNECTION!!!!!!!



Actually who knows, maybe there is one, it is interesting...

Maybe it's because blue and orange or complimentary colours? An artistic coincidence perhaps? Not that you'll ever reply to this, which reminds me....

BUMP!

Why is this thread not used more often? 2 pages for this awesome film which I re-watched today as part of my Going-to-WDW Disney Filmathon. It's amazing and I can safely say it's in my top 10 DAC, it's just so great and funny and Archimedes is just so lovable (see the multiple threads on IMDB about him) and it's just so great with both it's character design and sense of humour which you just don't see in Disney films anymore.

The one scene that dates it is still one of the funniest and I just can't get over how wonderful the whole affair is and how Disney really needs to do better with this film. And ditching the ceremony at WDW was not the right thing to do.

[Goliath]

I don't care much for this film. It's easily the weakest Classic from the Walt-era. But Walt had little, if nothing, to do with it, and it immediately shows.

One thing I like is Merlin's character. Often portrayed as a wise and dignified all-knowing sorcerer, in the Disney version he's an absent-minded, grumpy old man. That's funny. But his design is rather lazy and uninspired: big nose, moustache, long beard, glasses and pointy hat is the standard outfit for *every* cartoon wizard. Wart's design is not much better; he's very standard.

What I dislike, is how none of the lessons Wart learns is related to him pulling the sword out of the stone. Even this most important act is realized when his tutor, Merlin, is absent. So there's no connection between the seperate episodes in which Wart learns lessons and him becoming King Arthur. Also, there's too much deviation from the already weak and episodic structure, most apparent in the duel between Merlin and Mad Madam Mim.

Now this wizard's duel is one of the reasons I do occasionally watch the film, since it's very funny. But again, it doesn't have anything to do with the real story and it slows down the entire film too much.

There is no music in the film worth remembering. The Sherman Brothers' score is weak and unimaginative. Most people I speak who have seen the film don't even recall there being any songs in it at all. That should tell you something.

So all in all, not one of my favorites, to put it mildly.

[Chernabog_Rocks]

I kind of like Merlins simple design, I couldn't see Disney putting lots of details into Merlins clothing/hat putting Stars and Moons would have been too much like Sorceror Mickey, who also had pretty basic clothing design. I also don't see what's wrong with the big nose, the tache, long beard and glasses. What would you have rather seen on him? I think they did rather well with him considering this movie was made during a different time than the other DAC's from Walt's Era.

I think Wart's lessons in the film weren't supposed to fully be connected to pulling the sword. These lessons I believe were to prepare Wart for AFTER pulling it, for when he's King. I think Merlin was trying to prepare Wart for what comes after the Sword. Even if Wart didn't have these lessons learned beforehand he would have still been able to pull the sword out, but then he wouldn't have had the knowledge from those lessons afterwards.

I rather liked the music, it may not spring to mind faster than some of the newer songs, Whole New World, Part of Your World, I Won't Say etc. but then again I myself don't really remember a lot of songs from older classics like Bambi, many if not all the package films (aside from Three Caballeros). So it's not the first time a Disney film has had songs that are less memorable.

[Goliath]

I also don't see what's wrong with the big nose, the tache, long beard and glasses. What would you have rather seen on him?

I found it boring and lazy, because it's so standard for wizards in cartoons/comics. You need a wizard? Well, he's got a pointy hat, and a long beard, and glasses etc. I expect Disney to do more, to put more effort into their character designs.

[Flanger-Hanger]

I also don't see what's wrong with the big nose, the tache, long beard and glasses. What would you have rather seen on him?

I found it boring and lazy, because it's so standard for wizards in cartoons/comics. You need a wizard? Well, he's got a pointy hat, and a long beard, and glasses etc. I expect Disney to do more, to put more effort into their character designs.

Like Bill Peet basing Merlin's nose of Walt's? Site examples of Wizards in animation prior to Merlin that feature the same look. Some Silly Symphony cartoons? but hats and robes in general are similar to begin with. What you deem unoriginal may work best for what the character is meant to be in terms of personality in the end and another design may not have been as effective. I'm sure Disney did more than just one drawing in trying to develop his character design.

Also the life lessons taught by Wart do have a connection to him pulling the sword from the stone. Pulling the sword only represented a change in Wart's life and he needed to be taught certain things like the power of education in order to be a great king and not end up like his foster brother Kay. the wizard's duel was the ultimate way of proving this point and showed just how far Merlin was willing to teach Wart this ("you could have been killed", "it was worth it boy if you learned something").

Those events are all based off the book and Disney cut two additional transformations in order to tighten the plot which has very good pacing. If you have an issue with them I suggest you read the book and then make an informed opinion.

As for the songs, once again it's a matter of opinion. Weak or just different? People today are just too used to the modern Broadway style of recent Disney songs to appreciate the older, simpler style that dominated most of Disney's earlier features. Also you may know lost of people who can't remember them, but I know people who do like them.

[Flanger-Hanger]

I also don't see what's wrong with the big nose, the tache, long beard and glasses. What would you have rather seen on him?

I found it boring and lazy, because it's so standard for wizards in cartoons/comics. You need a wizard? Well, he's got a pointy hat, and a long beard, and glasses etc. I expect Disney to do more, to put more effort into their character designs.

What exactly would you suggest?

[Disney's Divinity]

How can it be possible that I've never posted in this thread?

I love this movie! I was absolutely obsessed with it as a child, to the point that my mother had to hide the flour. Merlin and Archimedes are the most hilarious characters, particularly Archimedes at the end of the fish sequence (his screaming cracks me up everytime I watch this movie). Mim is entertaining, too, but not on the same level. And the magic is done better in this film than perhaps any other, mostly with the dish-washing and packing scenes. They're absolutely amazing!

Today, TSitS has certainly moved down my ranks, but it still remains in my top ten--definitely! It's one of the few movies that never wears for me.

[yukitora]

It's a film I like.

Maybe if they gave Arthur ONE voice actor, I'd love it.

[Stats87]

The duel between Merlin and Madame Mim is one of the best scenes in Disney Animation history.

[Flanger-Hanger]

It's a film I like.

Maybe if they gave Arthur ONE voice actor, I'd love it.

Or stunted his growth so that his voice wouldn't naturally change and require the director's kids to record some lines.

[Jules]

I think the most amazing thing in this thread is finding out that netty is a husband and a father!

How could I be so stupid all these years!? For three years I've pictured netty as a (more or less) 35 year old bachelor.

[yukitora]

I know the reason why they had three voice actors, and I also know that it wasn't necessary.

Actually, I don't know why they had to use two of the Reitherman brothers when one clearly had a very stable voice. I dont know why they couldn't have just had that boy re-recorded all the lines. Sure it's costly, but its done all the time.

[kbehm29]

...which I re-watched today as part of my Going-to-WDW Disney Filmathon.

You do that too?!?????? I thought I was the only one. I make myself and my kids sit down and watch every Disney animated (and some live-action) movie we own before going on each and every Disney trip.

And, also to put in my 2 cents - I love The Sword in the Stone. I had never seen it before it was re-released last year, and it's now one of my favorite Disney movies.

[Flanger-Hanger]

...which I re-watched today as part of my Going-to-WDW Disney Filmathon.

You do that too?!?????? I thought I was the only one.

There are certain films I even save watching until I'm about to go. Stuff like Sleeping Beauty. Bedknobs, Cinderella, 101 Dalmatians etc. I break that rule if a new release happens (like Beauty last October) but I try to keep it like this.

Mary Poppins started it this year two days ago and I'm not sure what I'll watch today but I have a list!

[Goliath]

Like Bill Peet basing Merlin's nose of Walt's?

What's original about that? It still is just a nose. I'm talking about the whole character design.

I'm sure Disney did more than just one drawing in trying to develop his character design.

As I've understood it, Disney himself didn't have much, if anything, to do with the film. He gave Peet and Reithermann the free hand.

Those events are all based off the book and Disney cut two additional transformations in order to tighten the plot which has very good pacing. If you have an issue with them I suggest you read the book and then make an informed opinion.

I don't have an 'issue' with them, because that sounds so overly dramatic. I just don't like it. And that has nothing to do with being uninformed. Frankly, saying it's uninformed isn't very polite. Besides, a good film stands on its own. One shouldn't need to read a book first to appreciate a film.

As for the songs, once again it's a matter of opinion. Weak or just different? People today are just too used to the modern Broadway style of recent Disney songs to appreciate the older, simpler style that dominated most of Disney's earlier features.

While that undoubtely is true for alot of people, it isn't true for me. There are tons of memorable songs in classic films like Snow White, Peter Pan, Junglebook etc. Just none in Sword.

[blackcauldron85]

I think that The Sword in the Stone has memorable music!!! Madam Mim's song not so much, but the opening song, and "That's What Makes the World Go Round" and "Higitus Figitus" are good songs!

[Flanger-Hanger]

What's original about that? It still is just a nose. I'm talking about the whole character design.

All based of Peet's original drawings like the other characters, backgrounds etc. If you look at his children's books you can see how he draws his charactres and the animator's adapted this style, and just labeling it "unoriginal" shows how unfamiliar you are with it (which is not your fault but just look more into what the artists does first, I doubt he intended his creations to look "unoriginal). Note how Merlin's hat isn't just a pointed one it bends with odd angles and such and having comedic touches like his pink boxer shorts and white undershirt beneath it all add to his design.

As I've understood it, Disney himself didn't have much, if anything, to do with the film. He gave Peet and Reithermann the free hand.

Because of their success with Dalmatians. Peet was the only man Walt trusted to single handedly board and entire movie. Also Disney had reasons to get less involved with animation (this was way before sword came along) with projects like Disneyland ,The World's Fair, Mary Poppins etc. He know doubt trusted hi team and called the shots as to who did what, it still shows his stamp because of the way he had taught the animators and directors beforehand. the film is unmistakably Disney and just because it's not heavy with drama (and why should it be? Sleeping Beauty was criticized for being too serious and Dalmatians was a hit for being light hearted and comedic) it's not "Walt" enough for some?

I don't have an 'issue' with them, because that sounds so overly dramatic. I just don't like it. And that has nothing to do with being uninformed. Frankly, saying it's uninformed isn't very polite. Besides, a good film stands on its own. One shouldn't need to read a book first to appreciate a film.

Yes but one should at least get the purpose of these episodes as clearly explained through the situations, the dialouge, lyrics of the songs etc. It's hard to miss. saying they have "nothing to do with pulling a sword from a stone" is ridiculous as the sword pulling is trivial compared to the main issues addressed before and after it. Besides wart had to do that act on his own anyway and find out it's importance.

[Goliath]

All based of Peet's original drawings like the other characters, backgrounds etc. If you look at his children's books you can see how he draws his charactres and the animator's adapted this style, and just labeling it "unoriginal" shows how unfamiliar you are with it (which is not your fault but just look more into what the artists does first, I doubt he intended his creations to look "unoriginal).

You really shouldn't keep insulting me by repeating I'm not familiar with the process of animation, just because I hold a different opinion. I would bet I know as much as you, if not more, about it. Of course I'm not saying Peet intended it to look 'unoriginal'. I'm just saying I find it to be unoriginal, because it's a standard outfit for wizards in comics/cartoons.

[...] the film is unmistakably Disney and just because it's not heavy with drama it's not "Walt" enough for some?

Who said a film has to be 'heavy on drama' to be "Walt enough"? Ever seen One Hundred and One Dalmatians or The Jungle Book? They are at least as light-hearted as Sword. Jungle Book shows Walt's hand in the departure from the Kipling stories and making it into a unique *Disney*-film. It shows Walt's hand in the characters, their acting, interaction, personalities etc. Jungle Book, besides being funny, has a heart. Sword comes off as an assembly line product.

saying they have "nothing to do with pulling a sword from a stone" is ridiculous as the sword pulling is trivial compared to the main issues addressed before and after it. Besides wart had to do that act on his own anyway and find out it's importance.

I'm talking about storytelling here. How do you best translate the message that Merlin's lessons are connected with Wart pulling out the sword? They failed at doing a good job on that; they dropped the ball. Wart still want to be Kay's assistant, and that's why he looks for a sword. He's still captivated by the idea of one day becoming a knight himself. He isn't thinking about Merlin's lessons, or studying or those kind of things.

Had Disney told the story right, they would have put in an additional scene in which Wart is sad about losing Kay's sword, thinking he would never be a knight. Then Archimedes could have told him to forget about becoming one, and remember Merlin's lessons instead. Wart could have seen Archimedes was right, and decide to study more, like Merlin wanted. Then they could happen to walk past the sword, and Wart pulling it out. That way you connect Merlin's lessons far better with pulling out the sword.

[witchkitten]

I really love this film. I rented it so many times my mother should have just bought it for me. I always felt it was underrated and overlooked. Although there weren't many songs, I feel that they were all good and What Makes the World Go Round is one of the catchiest Disney songs. Once it's in my head, I can't get it out. This movie has a very unique feel to it. It's unlike any other Disney film. I like this film better than all of the Disney animated features from the 1970s.

Question: Does anyone know why they used three different voice actors for Wart? I searched for an answer but I couldn't find it.