A discussion on the ethics of piracy

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Fflewduur
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Post by Fflewduur »

drfsupercenter wrote: I have a few comments to that end.

One, I have quite a large collection of legally-owned movies... bigger than almost all of my friends. I'm not against paying for movies... most of the ones I copy I already own. But is it such a crime to not want to carry the original copies around with me? When it's just as easy to burn a DVD-R and not care if it gets ruined?
As far as who piracy is hurting... how does it hurt the actors and technical crew members? Those people all sign contracts, and make most of their money before the movie even comes out.
From that point, the majority of the profits goes to the studio. And does it really look like Fox, WB, Sony, Viacom, etc. need more money? The same goes with music - I once read that a recording artist only makes about 10 cents from every CD sold. I would rather send them a dime in an envelope and then download the music for free... Why would I support giving a record label 90% of the profit? (And for that reason, there are actually a few recording artists who encourage "piracy", because of issues they've had with their recording label)

So really, pirates aren't really hurting the actors, they're helping. I'm not trying to stick anything to the man, I'm simply trying to get the most out of my media. Why would I buy a DVD and then buy an iTunes copy? I can make my own iTunes copy! Why would I buy a song on iTunes and then re-buy it in WMA? Etcetera, etcetera. I always pay to see movies in theaters - with the exception of a couple of "bad" movies I wanted to see purely to see if the reviews were right, I don't watch camrips. So don't think I'm going around stealing movies. And heck, piracy isn't stealing... they still have the original!

For that matter, Sony has even admitted making money from piracy. What I mean is this. People buy PSP systems, and then flash them so they can play free games. Same with the Nintendo DS, Wii, etc. And I'm talking people would wouldn't buy the system at all if they couldn't get free games. I can find a link to the press article if you want, but I know one of the higher-ups at Sony made a press statement saying they're actually benefiting from PSP hacking. And yet they continue to hunt down and destroy the hackers. Shame.
I'm not talking about fair use/backup copies/"I-HAVE-to-be-able-to-use-the-media-player-of-MY-choice."

You suggested an iTunes re-release of a vintage Disney album should be DRM-stripped and shared among members explicitly to avoid payment on copyrighted material, and you offered to facilitate such actions. That's not a defensible position, ethically or legally, and it suggest your motives in promoting copy protection/DRM-breaking are not entitled to any benefit of doubt.

I shouldn't have to address this. There's no good reason you should be allowed to argue in defense of piracy on a site which generates income from legitimate sales and which relies on the goodwill of the studios to create content of its own.

Speaking as a creator of intellectual property and copyrighted content, your attitude about my rights sucks.

Piracy benefits no one so much as pirates. Period.

Your ideas about music royalties bear correcting, though I think it's important to note you could have fact-checked yourself in a fraction of the time you spend spouting bad information on this forum. Recording contract law is endlessly convoluted, but for simplicity's sake: songwriter/publishing royalties are 6-9 cents pert track under 5 minutes in length depending on whether or not the label has negotiated the statutory rate downward; recording artist royalties are generally 10%. On a fifteen-track album with a sticker price of $15, that's $2.50 or so due the composersand recording artists. But before the record has a chance to generate a penny in revenue, the label has laid out money which it's entitled to recoup before declaring a profit and sharing out royalties with the recording artists. That means the recording artists, being the last folks to get paid, are the first to get screwed by piracy. And since a label's recoupable expenses include costs incurred during recording, producing, mastering, pressing, distributing, and promoting the record, as well as video production and tour support, your purchase price represents monies already spent on physical resources and the work of a raft of personnel: the producer, the recording engineer, the recording studio secretary, session musicians, instrument techs, photographers, caterers, line workers at the pressing plant, graphic artists, stage managers, tour managers, hotel cleaning ladies, screenprinters, follow-spot operators, limo drivers, truck drivers, personal assistants, accountants, camera operators, gaffers, janitors, luthiers, piano tuners, vocal coaches, copy writers, wardrobe techs, welders, electricians, carpenters...and whether you like it or not, you don't get to parse out and evaluate the individual costs you wish to pay for an album any more than for your car, your computer, or an order of fries. And since you're living at home, making a negligible contribution to the GDP, without firsthand experience in the effort required to make a career and earn your own way in the world---much less the self-sacrifices required to support a family---I fail to see what would entitle you to decide who gets paid and how much.

Yes, a lot of people get paid up front. The idea that piracy somehow doesn't hurt them is pure fallacy. It takes a lot of money to make a film. Where do you suppose that money comes from? Profits. Lost profits can't be re-invested in production: they represent films that aren't made and the thousands of people not collecting paychecks on work never commissioned. That matters more than ever at a time like this when every dime counts, when the economy is in the tank, when unemployment is going up and businesses are going under, when people realize their investments a worth a third less than they were a year ago (my kids' prepaid college tuition funds are worth less now than what we originally put into them). In 2005 they figure the US film industry lost about 8% revenue to piracy, more than 6 billion dollars. Any attempt to parse out Disney's share would be folly, but as one of the big 6 mega-conglomerate studios, it's surely not an insignificant number. Say their share of loss was $500 million---that's more than the budgets of The Pacifier, Herbie: Fully Loaded, Sky High, Chicken Little, and the first Chronicles of Narnia film <i>combined</i>; that's more than half the Disney-branded release schedule for the year, and including the single biggest-budgeted among them.
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Post by Fflewduur »

drfsupercenter wrote: I have a few comments to that end.

One, I have quite a large collection of legally-owned movies... bigger than almost all of my friends. I'm not against paying for movies... most of the ones I copy I already own. But is it such a crime to not want to carry the original copies around with me? When it's just as easy to burn a DVD-R and not care if it gets ruined?
As far as who piracy is hurting... how does it hurt the actors and technical crew members? Those people all sign contracts, and make most of their money before the movie even comes out.
From that point, the majority of the profits goes to the studio. And does it really look like Fox, WB, Sony, Viacom, etc. need more money? The same goes with music - I once read that a recording artist only makes about 10 cents from every CD sold. I would rather send them a dime in an envelope and then download the music for free... Why would I support giving a record label 90% of the profit? (And for that reason, there are actually a few recording artists who encourage "piracy", because of issues they've had with their recording label)

So really, pirates aren't really hurting the actors, they're helping. I'm not trying to stick anything to the man, I'm simply trying to get the most out of my media. Why would I buy a DVD and then buy an iTunes copy? I can make my own iTunes copy! Why would I buy a song on iTunes and then re-buy it in WMA? Etcetera, etcetera. I always pay to see movies in theaters - with the exception of a couple of "bad" movies I wanted to see purely to see if the reviews were right, I don't watch camrips. So don't think I'm going around stealing movies. And heck, piracy isn't stealing... they still have the original!

For that matter, Sony has even admitted making money from piracy. What I mean is this. People buy PSP systems, and then flash them so they can play free games. Same with the Nintendo DS, Wii, etc. And I'm talking people would wouldn't buy the system at all if they couldn't get free games. I can find a link to the press article if you want, but I know one of the higher-ups at Sony made a press statement saying they're actually benefiting from PSP hacking. And yet they continue to hunt down and destroy the hackers. Shame.
I'm not talking about fair use/backup copies/"I-HAVE-to-be-able-to-use-the-media-player-of-MY-choice."

You suggested an iTunes re-release of a vintage Disney album should be DRM-stripped and shared among members explicitly to avoid payment on copyrighted material, and you offered to facilitate such actions. That's not a defensible position, ethically or legally, and it suggest your motives in promoting copy protection/DRM-breaking are not entitled to any benefit of doubt.

I shouldn't have to address this. There's no good reason you should be allowed to argue in defense of piracy on a site which generates income from legitimate sales and which relies on the goodwill of the studios to create content of its own.

Speaking as a creator of intellectual property and copyrighted content, your attitude about my rights sucks.

Piracy benefits no one so much as pirates. Period.

Your ideas about music royalties bear correcting, though I think it's important to note you could have fact-checked yourself in a fraction of the time you spend spouting bad information on this forum. Recording contract law is endlessly convoluted, but for simplicity's sake: songwriter/publishing royalties are 6-9 cents pert track under 5 minutes in length depending on whether or not the label has negotiated the statutory rate downward; recording artist royalties are generally 10%. On a fifteen-track album with a sticker price of $15, that's $2.50 or so due the composersand recording artists. But before the record has a chance to generate a penny in revenue, the label has laid out money which it's entitled to recoup before declaring a profit and sharing out royalties with the recording artists. That means the recording artists, being the last folks to get paid, are the first to get screwed by piracy. And since a label's recoupable expenses include costs incurred during recording, producing, mastering, pressing, distributing, and promoting the record, as well as video production and tour support, your purchase price represents monies already spent on physical resources and the work of a raft of personnel: the producer, the recording engineer, the recording studio secretary, session musicians, instrument techs, photographers, caterers, line workers at the pressing plant, graphic artists, stage managers, tour managers, hotel cleaning ladies, screenprinters, follow-spot operators, limo drivers, truck drivers, personal assistants, accountants, camera operators, gaffers, janitors, luthiers, piano tuners, vocal coaches, copy writers, wardrobe techs, welders, electricians, carpenters...and whether you like it or not, you don't get to parse out and evaluate the individual costs you wish to pay for an album any more than for your car, your computer, or an order of fries. And since you're living at home, making a negligible contribution to the GDP, without firsthand experience in the effort required to make a career and earn your own way in the world---much less the self-sacrifices required to support a family---I fail to see what would entitle you to decide who gets paid and how much.

Yes, a lot of people get paid up front. The idea that piracy somehow doesn't hurt them is pure fallacy. It takes a lot of money to make a film. Where do you suppose that money comes from? Profits. Lost profits can't be re-invested in production: they represent films that aren't made and the thousands of people not collecting paychecks on work never commissioned. That matters more than ever at a time like this when every dime counts, when the economy is in the tank, when unemployment is going up and businesses are going under, when people realize their investments a worth a third less than they were a year ago (my kids' prepaid college tuition funds are worth less now than what we originally put into them). In 2005 they figure the US film industry lost about 8% revenue to piracy, more than 6 billion dollars. Any attempt to parse out Disney's share would be folly, but as one of the big 6 mega-conglomerate studios, it's surely not an insignificant number. Say their share of loss was $500 million---that's more than the budgets of The Pacifier, Herbie: Fully Loaded, Sky High, Chicken Little, and the first Chronicles of Narnia film <i>combined</i>; that's more than half the Disney-branded release schedule for the year, and including the single biggest-budgeted among them.
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Post by drfsupercenter »

You suggested an iTunes re-release of a vintage Disney album should be DRM-stripped and shared among members explicitly to avoid payment on copyrighted material, and you offered to facilitate such actions. That's not a defensible position, ethically or legally, and it suggest your motives in promoting copy protection/DRM-breaking are not entitled to any benefit of doubt.
Oh. Right... that was quite some time ago. Well, I also like to collect hard-to-find stuff... and not everyone likes using iTunes. I may use it more now, now that they're going DRM-free.
Plus, aren't just about everyone who worked on those vintage albums dead? That would mean iTunes and Disney get all the profits, and I don't see them crying broke anytime soon.
Plus, if there is no DRM on it anymore, the sharing might no longer be needed. DRM pretty much fuels piracy more than anything... I don't feel like explaining it, but it goes along the lines of "I want to do what I want, when I want, with the stuff I paid for".

I completely agree with what this guy said. I bought The Dark Knight on DVD, the 2-disc set (because I wanted the IMAX scenes)... it works fine in my TV, but a lot of software players don't support it due to its insane new copy protection.
So people who aren't technically knowledgable like me might find it easier to open LimeWire and just download an AVI, instead of wasting 20 minutes trying to find a program that will play the stupid DVD to begin with.
If there was no copy protection, people would have less incentive to pirate it.

Yes, I know there are people who just pirate stuff to be cheap, but DRM has a lot to do with it. You notice how you don't see stuff from Amazon mp3 store floating around torrents? It's because people who just want to use their files legitimately are happy that there's no DRM and don't have a need to go uploading it... DRM was the by-product of the RIAA freaking out over the monster that was Napster (the illegal one, not the new WMA store)... and they just added to the problem.
That matters more than ever at a time like this when every dime counts, when the economy is in the tank, when unemployment is going up and businesses are going under, when people realize their investments a worth a third less than they were a year ago
Well, considering how bad the economy is, maybe the studios shouldn't rip off their customers like they do now. Putting Blu-Ray/DVD picture quality aside, over the years it seems like they've been putting LESS and LESS extras on their releases, and given them less care.
There are some real good 2-disc DVD sets... The Last Samurai, Lord of the Rings, etc. There's no "one disc" and "two disc collector's set with digital copy" crap, it's just one release, now you can find them for about $10, and they actually have a TON of extras.

Look at releases nowadays... I bought Eagle Eye's 2-disc set at Target the other day, it was $22.99 (And that was a special sale!)... the second disc is a single layer and doesn't have any really GOOD extras. Why I paid extra for that disc is beyond me.

It's not that I have a problem paying for movies, it's that I have a problem paying for JUNK. Occasionally you get a truly good set, such as Wall-E's 3-disc (which I will buy once I can find it in a plastic case). But it seems now more and more, the studios are releasing crappy sets with just the movie and maybe a commentary... and the price is the same as the good sets.

And for those I'll just go to Blockbuster and rent them (I get free rentals since we use Blockbuster Total Access)... who's losing money if I just put a copy on my computer? It's not like I would have given them my money for their inferior crap to begin with...

By the way, you double-posted...
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Post by Mollyzkoubou »

This.

I'm all for taking stuff that's ONLY available drm'd and breaking it and sharing. I'm not so likely to do that with stuff that's easy to get without the drm.
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Post by Rudy Matt »

drfsupercenter wrote:
Plus, aren't just about everyone who worked on those vintage albums dead? That would mean iTunes and Disney get all the profits, and I don't see them crying broke anytime soon.
Wow.

Just wow.

As if the musicians and artists don't have families and weren't able to pass interests to their heirs?
DRM pretty much fuels piracy more than anything... I don't feel like explaining it, but it goes along the lines of "I want to do what I want, when I want, with the stuff I paid for".
No, its pretty much "I want to do what I want, when I want, and I don't want to pay for anything, and if you make me, I'll scream rape."
If there was no copy protection, people would have less incentive to pirate it.
If copy protection existed 15 years ago, my cousin might still have a job with BMI. File sharing devastated the music industry.
There are some real good 2-disc DVD sets... The Last Samurai, Lord of the Rings, etc. There's no "one disc" and "two disc collector's set with digital copy" crap, it's just one release, now you can find them for about $10, and they actually have a TON of extras.
The Lord of the Rings has been released on DVD three times already. Standard, Extended, and Standard + Extended with new Bonus Features. What do you mean, it's only one release?
Look at releases nowadays... I bought Eagle Eye's 2-disc set at Target the other day, it was $22.99 (And that was a special sale!)... the second disc is a single layer and doesn't have any really GOOD extras. Why I paid extra for that disc is beyond me.
That's too easy a setup for a punchline.
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Post by drfsupercenter »

As if the musicians and artists don't have families and weren't able to pass interests to their heirs?
OK, so maybe they DO pass on their profits... that's assuming iTunes is being the "good guy" here. Or did they just work out a deal with Disney and keep all the profits?
No, its pretty much "I want to do what I want, when I want, and I don't want to pay for anything, and if you make me, I'll scream rape."
Um, no.

Look at how many DVDs I legitimately own. And I have about 20 more floating around my room, until we get a bigger shelf.
And look at all my CDs. THOSE shelves are overlowing too. Plus, those are just *my* CDs... my parents and my sisters also have their own collections, and US copyright law says it's legal to make copies of stuff others in your house own.
And heck, we even have a huge VHS collection still!

And not to mention, I've spent at least $200 on the iTunes store. I don't know the exact number, I don't keep track.

So anyone who says I'm just being cheap or not wanting to pay for stuff is just being stupid.

And here's my theory on piracy. There are basically 3 types of people when it comes to buying/pirating media. (The middle group should really be two, but eh)

First we have the goody-goodies. Like those of you ranting at me about being related to Satan or somethng like that. The type who never, EVER pirates ANYTHING. They'll pay to see movies in theaters, they'll buy movies on DVD, if it's not showing near them, they just won't see it. Or if it's out of print on DVD, they just won't complain about not being able to buy it.

Then we have the reverse end of the spectrum... the 100% pirates. These are the people who never BUY anything. They raid the torrent sites and p2p networks all day long. If a movie hasn't been ripped yet, they just don't watch it. They would never set foot in a Blockbuster except to write down titles they'll go pirate when they get home.

Then there's the middle group, which I refer to as "Laziness/Convenience pirates".
On the slightly more evil side, we have the people who will pirate everything if it's out there. If a movie just came out and hasn't been bootlegged yet, though, they'll go see it in a theater. Or maybe there are no good rips of that hot new song, so they'll buy the track on iTunes.
Then there's the other side. This is the one I'd probably consider myself in. They will pay to see movies in theaters if they're available, but if it's not showing near them they'll just look for a rip. Or if they can't get a certain movie in the stores, they might download a DVD rip instead. And instead of flaming and spamming the iTunes store 20 times a day saying "PLEASE ITUNES MAKE SUCH AND SUCH ARTIST AVAILABLE!!!" they'll download a song or album for free if it can't be found legally.

So with movies like Song of the South, I see nothing wrong with sharing it. It's been banned by Disney, it's likely we'll ever see a legit release. So you call can complain about me stealing profits from the actors, but don't complain when you can't see that movie.

My eternal hatred of copy protection is just a different side view, but it's the same concept. I refuse to buy copy-protected files unless it is THE only way. (I'm not really counting DVDs because decrypting them is as simple as clicking twice)

As a friend once said, "It's not stealing, you still have the original!"
Say there's a certain movie that I want to see. I have no intent of buying it, as I know nothing about it. So I get the DVD from a friend or local library, and make myself a copy. Who is that hurting? I never had the intention to buy it to begin with, so it's not as if the studio would have gotten my money. And my friend has already paid for it, so the same applies there. I'm usually against just downloading AVI rips of movies from torrents and such for that reason... but as far as under-the-table DVD copying, I really have no problem with it.

And this also applies with imports. Certain titles just don't exist in NTSC, or at least in a certain format.
For example: Aladdin and the King of Thieves in 4:3. Yes, it's on a VHS. But the only DVD they released here is stupidly cropped to 16:9. So I managed to get a copy of a European PAL release, and subsequently slowed it down to NTSC speed to make my own home-made NTSC DVD. What's so bad about sharing that around? If Disney wanted to make money off it, they could be a bit wiser with their DVDs and actually release it correctly to begin with. All I'm doing is a public favor to those who want it.

Or a movie like Armageddon. For whatever reason, it has never been released anamorphic here. And it's not on Blu-Ray either... The original Touchstone DVD was horribly authored, and was 4:3 letterboxed. A little while later, Criterion released a 2-disc set with extras, but IT TOO was letterboxed. Well for whatever reason, in the UK they have an anamorphic version. So my current project is to get ahold of that, and convert it to NTSC. Therefore I'd be able to make an NTSC anamorphic widescreen version.

And again. It doesn't exist legally. So what's so bad about it?
If copy protection existed 15 years ago, my cousin might still have a job with BMI. File sharing devastated the music industry.
It did. Even 25 years ago. It's called "Macrovision". Disney has been putting copy protection on their tapes for years. Now, I know MUSIC didn't have copy protection up until digital music stores and the rootkit, but that's only because they tried a sort of copy protection on cassette tapes, and everyone complained. Apparently you could hear the jumbled signals even when playing it legitimately. So that disappeared as soon as it began.

But yes, copy protection has been around for ages. People just never complained about people breaking it before Napster. Heck, my parents have a good size collection of "pirated" cassette tapes, in which they would take a tape a friend owned, hook up two tape decks, and record it to a blank tape. Did anyone ever get arrested for that? I don't think so... unless they were selling them, maybe. But now everyone needs a scapegoat. The MPAA and RIAA can't cope with the bad economy, so who do they blame? The "pirates". I wouldn't consider myself a pirate, I own more stuff than I download. What they would say is a different story, though.

As far as file sharing devastating the industry... well, I think it was a good idea that went wrong. It WOULD have worked out fine and dandy, except when Napster first came out, it was 100% free and the RIAA got pissed. Same with KaZaA or whatever those early p2p programs were.
Heck, the MPAA tried to team up with BitTorrent a while back. They were going to release free movies that were LEGAL over torrents, realizing that it's impossible to stop people from sharing stuff, and it might lower their losses that way.
But the problem: DRM. As usual, they decided that they needed to put DRM encryption on it... so all the hardcore torrent junkies just avoided it. Why would you need DRM on a free file? They're just being stupid.

Honestly, I think having official free music download sites would work out well. They could make them ad-supported... and then they'd still be making money, but people could get the songs for free. You know how many ads The Pirate Bay has? How much money do you think they're making off that? Imagine that revenue went to say, Walt Disney Records instead... then they wouldn't have to piss and moan about file-sharing and the people who don't want to buy the CDs would still be happy.
The Lord of the Rings has been released on DVD three times already. Standard, Extended, and Standard + Extended with new Bonus Features. What do you mean, it's only one release?
OK, so maybe that's a bad example.
I was just talking about the standard one. There was never a single disc set. It just came out with two discs and a load of bonus features... I got Return of the King the week it came out at Wal-Mart for $15.
I guess the Disney Platinum Editions are a good example, despite how cheap they've become now. (Not price, I mean production value)

But I mean, just a few years ago, DVDs would be released and they'd either have one disc or two. Not both. And typically the sale price was no more than $20 for a single title. Now you have these collector's sets that go for $25 and up, and the content isn't even as good as these $15 DVDs they had just a few years ago!
Last edited by drfsupercenter on Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by The_Iceflash »

As far as movie and music piracy go, I don't support it at all. I have no respect for illegal downloading (not that thrilled on legal downloading either to be honest). People are saying it's a great thing that the music industry is crumbling (or hurting) but I believe it's done more bad than good. I'm not one of those "down with the music industry and establishment" type of people and I never will. I don't like those who insist that music and movies should be free. I've seen people go on rants on why they shouldn't have to pay for music.
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Post by drfsupercenter »

I'm not one of those type of people... and I'm not saying everything should be free.

But I also think they're blowing things way out of proportion, the music industry is crumbling for more than just piracy. We'll see what happens once iTunes goes completely DRM free, we already have Amazon and Walmart.com, hopefully the rest will follow. "Piracy" has been going on for years and on one ever complained until it went mainstream.
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Post by The_Iceflash »

drfsupercenter wrote:I'm not one of those type of people... and I'm not saying everything should be free.

But I also think they're blowing things way out of proportion, the music industry is crumbling for more than just piracy. We'll see what happens once iTunes goes completely DRM free, we already have Amazon and Walmart.com, hopefully the rest will follow. "Piracy" has been going on for years and on one ever complained until it went mainstream.
Don't worry I didn't say you were. :P

I just had to say it. :wink:
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Post by drfsupercenter »

OK, I just had to make sure :lol:

The type of people you're talking about is that second extreme I described.

I really think the groups I summed up pretty much can categorize anyone :D
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Post by Elladorine »

When did this turn into a discussion on the ethics of piracy? :o

Anyway, I just wanted to pop my head in here and point out that anytime one of our favorite artists loses sales (due to piracy, poor publicity, bad marketing, etc.) they carry less clout to continue the kind of work that attracted our attention in the first place. To argue that the artist(s) and production people have already been paid for the finished work is a moot point, as sales help dictate their future decisions that involve the active creators.

I mean, look what happened to Narnia. While I'm sure there were many contributing factors (with piracy being probably being minimal), the bottom line is that Disney is dumping the series because it did not meet their financial expectations, am I right? So with the directions things are going, how long before piracy really affects the film industry in the same way it has the music industry? How long will it be before Hollywood is crippled in the same way Hong Kong is when it comes to films? Hollywood's already losing what, $670 million a year? At least that's what they lost to piracy in 2007, I imagine the numbers will continue to grow.
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Post by drfsupercenter »

Well, those estimates are hardly accurate.

As I said, there's a group of people who simply will not ever pay to see a movie. So assuming you had a movie that was *physically impossible* to pirate, you'd still have thousands of people not seeing it. So when they download it for free, they're not really losing money... they would never have made that money in the first place!

They're just throwing a bunch of big numbers out there to make people feel bad. I went to see Narnia 2 with a friend, we paid $10 a ticket. I then bought the 3-disc DVD set when it came out. Really, it was Disney's own fault for releasing it right before the hottest movies of the summer... people went to see those and not Narnia.

And as for the artists losing money... I know there are several recording artists who actually encourage people to pirate their songs. There are different reasons, but some of them are bands who broke up and thus the record label won't make their stuff... so they want people to share it around for free.
Or there's the groups who just hate their record label with a passion and wants to make sure they don't profit from their music.

I guess it turned into a discussion about the ethics of piracy when a few people started bashing me, saying what I'm saying is meaningless because I'm a pirate, etc. etc.
I'm fine with people disliking me... but what I hate is people (and the media) blowing things out of proportion. Yes, they lose money from piracy. No, it's not as much as they say it is.

--EDIT--

LOL, so I replied, only to find out someone made this a separate topic.
So I pasted it here.
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Elladorine
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Post by Elladorine »

I wasn't claiming that piracy had anything to do with Disney dropping Narnia, I was only using it as an example of how sales affect future productions. Anyway, look up bootlegging in Hong Kong and see how people skip out on seeing theatrical runs when they can literally cross the street and buy the same movies as a bootleg for a dollar. And while you're at it, check out what's it's done to their film industry.

Sure, there are people that download movies they'd have never paid to see, but I seriously doubt it accounts for the majority of pirated movies out there. Why do I say so? I've seen it myself many, many times. There are plenty of people who'd rather not monetarily support any entertainment they can find for free online, and there are plenty of people willing to rent a movie and copy it rather than paying for an official copy from the store. This especially goes for Disney movies. I used to work in childcare . . . do you have any idea how many parents feel their children are entitled to grow up with Disney movies? So "entitled" that they also feel they shouldn't have to pay for them. And people will find any excuse to justify their actions, such as . . .
  • ~It's a big company, they make enough money as it is

    ~They've already paid those who worked on it (let's forget that royalties exist)

    ~It's not a "physical item" (it's not like I'm stealing any discs from the store)

    ~I'm entitled to be able to watch/listen to it whenever I want since it's on and/or will be on TV/the radio anyway

    ~I didn't plan on actually buying it/renting it, that's just a waste of money
Nothing personal but it sounds like a bunch of BS to me. :roll:

Oh, and if artists hate their record label with a passion, that's too bad. Regardless of the situation that made them "hate" their label, if it hadn't been for the financial backing of said label their recordings would never have been produced and distributed in the first place. :P
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drfsupercenter
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Post by drfsupercenter »

Well with renting and copying... how is that any different than TiVo'ing your favorite movie off AMC? You can even cut the commercials out. And it's 100% legal to record stuff from TV for your personal use.
(Yay, free trial of Starz + DVR? My friend has like 20 HD movies he got legally that way)

I know Hong Kong is famous for bootlegs... but aren't most of those American films that end up over there? Kinda like how they banned The Dark Knight due to "racism", and the Yahoo! News article said "Bootleg copies have been available for months."

See the pictures I put up of my media collections. Most of my friends come over and are amazed how many movies we have. It's not like I'm trying to shaft the movie/music industry or undermine anything. But there are just those movies that you either can't get, they're hard to find, etc. Typically, if something's easily available, I'll buy it. Unless it's ruined by DRM. In which case I'll only download it if I'm 100% I can remove the DRM. Which is how I can use my legally owned Digital Copy movies on a Zune that doesn't support DRM'ed files.

--EDIT--

What the heck? Imagehost expired already? Man... I need a better server I can hotlink. I deleted the original pictures - I guess I have to retake them!
Last edited by drfsupercenter on Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Goliath »

Rudy Matt wrote:If copy protection existed 15 years ago, my cousin might still have a job with BMI. File sharing devastated the music industry.
:lol: I've never heard so much utter crap in my entire life!

I don't know whether to laugh or to cry about regular people who feel they need to defend big corporations who are ripping them off against the 'mean and vile pirates'... :roll:
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Post by drfsupercenter »

LOL, seriously.

I'm not pro-piracy but I'm not pro-"buy everything" either. I buy a fair number of DVDs and CDs a year compared to others my age... who are they to complain? Plus, there's always double dipping.

For example: I own National Treasure on DVD. The original one with a single disc. Then recently they came out with a two-disc set, where the first disc is literally identical. Why would I buy that again just to get the second disc? I already gave Disney some $15 for the movie already (Plus the ticket I bought to see it in the theater!) So I'd just as easily rent the second disc and make a personal copy for myself.
Not to sell on the black market, just to add to my collection.

I'm 100% against "commercial piracy". The seller didn't likely pay for it, why should they force others to? Especially with super-rare things that you can ONLY find pirated... I had to pay a guy $10 to get a bootleg Song of the South Japanese laserdisc rip... which totally sucked because it's the only source I could find that didn't involve spending $300 to import the laserdisc.

So in my book, "under the table" copying, like what I've described, is fine... but making profits or giving out copies to the whole neighborhood isn't. I also try to avoid downloading torrented movies, as they're horrible quality and I like having menus and special features. But if it's the only option I will...
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Post by Goliath »

drfsupercenter wrote:LOL, seriously.

I'm not pro-piracy but I'm not pro-"buy everything" either. I buy a fair number of DVDs and CDs a year compared to others my age... who are they to complain? Plus, there's always double dipping.
Same here. The only thing I ever download are songs. Not entire albums, but songs I like. And I have bought records of artists I would otherwise never habe bought if I hadn't downloaded some of their songs in the first place. I never downlaod movies or tv series. For one, I'm a technical n00b and I can't figure out how 'torrents' etc. work. Yes, pathetic for a 23 year old, but true. But even if I could, I wouldn't, because I'm a movie fan and I want my favorite movies on original releases.

But that doesn't mean I'm against copying or 'piracy' at all when it comes to the way you do it. I see nothing wrong with that.
drfsupercenter wrote:For example: I own National Treasure on DVD. The original one with a single disc. Then recently they came out with a two-disc set, where the first disc is literally identical. Why would I buy that again just to get the second disc? I already gave Disney some $15 for the movie already (Plus the ticket I bought to see it in the theater!) So I'd just as easily rent the second disc and make a personal copy for myself.
Not to sell on the black market, just to add to my collection.
Yes, that's what I meant. That's the sort of cynical marketing ploys of corporations I'm against, and why I support 'piracy' in those cases. They rip you off. And you know they're gonna rip you off. The instance you buy a cd/dvd, you just know that within a year, they'll rerelease it three times, each time with a different new added song/bonus feature. Screw them! Copy them!
drfsupercenter wrote:I'm 100% against "commercial piracy". The seller didn't likely pay for it, why should they force others to? [...] So in my book, "under the table" copying, like what I've described, is fine... but making profits or giving out copies to the whole neighborhood isn't. I also try to avoid downloading torrented movies, as they're horrible quality and I like having menus and special features. But if it's the only option I will...
I agree. I'm not encouraging or applauding downloading movies for free and then selling them to others. But, like you say: when corporations try to rip you off, or when a movie isn't available: sure. A friend had to download a movie for me because it isn't available in Europe: Saludos Amigos has never been released here! I'm not gonna pay all the extra shipping costs just because Disney is so stupid as to not release it here.

I also agree with you about the scapegoating. The profits these corporations are making are insane! Now some people in this thread are saying: the studio's need those profits, otherwise no new films will be made. No! No, they don't need those huge, enormous, absurd profits to make new films. That's an excuse they use to get you to pay way, way, way too much for their re-re-re-releases. Why people still fall for that is beyond me.

And what do you all think about YouTube? Complete movies and tv series can be seen there! I, for one, am glad YouTube exists, because otherwise I wouldn't be able to follow a lot of shows.
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Post by drfsupercenter »

I think putting copyrighted stuff on YouTube only gives the studios' free advertising.

Even those of us who do know how to leech YouTube videos, they're like 640x360. That's hardly good quality. So people who really want to own it will still buy the DVD.
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Post by Elladorine »

drfsupercenter wrote:Well with renting and copying... how is that any different than TiVo'ing your favorite movie off AMC? You can even cut the commercials out. And it's 100% legal to record stuff from TV for your personal use.
(Yay, free trial of Starz + DVR? My friend has like 20 HD movies he got legally that way)
The difference is that whatever films you're recording off of AMC have been paid for by AMC to be aired, and are being sponsored (regardless of whether or not you cut the commercials). Plus the people who hold the rights to the films being shown have chosen AMC as a venue for you to watch and/or record it. And even if it's a free trial, AMC/Starz/whatever channel is part of either part of the cable/satellite that you pay for (unless you're talking about locally broadcast channels and rabbit ears, in which case we're talking about sponsorships all over again).

DVD's are typically licensed for private home use of course, and take in money a totally different way (by people directly buying/renting them).
I know Hong Kong is famous for bootlegs... but aren't most of those American films that end up over there? Kinda like how they banned The Dark Knight due to "racism", and the Yahoo! News article said "Bootleg copies have been available for months."
I'm actually referring to films made in and marketed for Hong Kong, although it happens to American films as well.
See the pictures I put up of my media collections. Most of my friends come over and are amazed how many movies we have. It's not like I'm trying to shaft the movie/music industry or undermine anything. But there are just those movies that you either can't get, they're hard to find, etc. Typically, if something's easily available, I'll buy it. Unless it's ruined by DRM. In which case I'll only download it if I'm 100% I can remove the DRM. Which is how I can use my legally owned Digital Copy movies on a Zune that doesn't support DRM'ed files.
As I said in my previous post, this is nothing personal and I'm not trying to say that you're out to shaft the entertainment industry. :lol:

I understand wanting to do the back-up copies or wanting to put a copy you already paid for on your portable device. I even understand wanting to get your hands on rare, out of print, or completely unavailable titles. I have a DVD of Song of the South as well as a set of the Daria series, which I plan on replacing with official copies if they ever get released (like I've been able to halfway do with my Darkwing sets).

My only real point is that the line begins to blur when bootlegs get discussed, as you can see people quickly make assumptions and take sides.
For example: I own National Treasure on DVD. The original one with a single disc. Then recently they came out with a two-disc set, where the first disc is literally identical. Why would I buy that again just to get the second disc? I already gave Disney some $15 for the movie already (Plus the ticket I bought to see it in the theater!) So I'd just as easily rent the second disc and make a personal copy for myself.
Not to sell on the black market, just to add to my collection.
I must admit I did the same when a similar thing happened with Pirates and the "lost disc." :lol:
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Post by DarthPrime »

I will admit I didn't read all this thread.

Anyway on DRM/copy protection, it only hurts those who are going to buy the product anyway. "Pirates" will always find a way around, and some DRM is getting just ridiculous.

I'm all for being able to backup your DVDs/CDs. I think digital copies are a waste because of how easy it is to do the backups. However DRM makes it hard sometimes to do what should be easy.

Using the Nintendo Wii as an example. The DRM they use for the Wii Shop ties everything to the console itself. If it dies, and you don't pay Nintendo to fix it (or get it fixed under warranty) you loose your rights to everything you download. Hardware doesn't last forever. If I buy a digital download I want to know that I can continue to use this if the physical hardware dies and needs replacing.

Windows Activation/Windows Genuine Advantage was another thing that did not stop people from pirating Windows. All it did was add more steps if you need to reactivate on a upgraded, or new machine.
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