Gargoyles Discussion

[Siren]

Damn, that's good enough for the theme parks. I keep on wishing every year I go to Mickey's Not So Scary Halloween they have Gargoyles related stuff there. Be it meet and greet characters or merchandise. Alas, nadda.

[GargoyleGoddess21]

Ahhh...a Gargoyles thread ::huggles::

Unfortunately disneyfella and I didn't get to the Gathering this year. Things got busy and it just didn't happen. I still want to get to one SOMEDAY!

I first saw/discovered Gargoyles when it aired on TDA. I was an avid Aladdin watcher and remember seeing previews for the new show. I know the first time around I missed the first part of ep 1 of Awakening, but was totally hooked by the end of the 5 parter. I remember the first time I saw Deadly Force we were in the middle of moving from one house to another, so I literally saw up to when Broadway shot Eliza, and my TV was uplugged! I didn't get to see the rest of the episode until the next go around!

I have most of the Marvel comics of Gargoyles from 94-95. At first I would just buy them from the local gas station, but I finally decided to get a year's subscription...RIGHT when it ended! So instead I got a years worth of an X-Men series, but I was still so irritated that the Gargoyles comic had ended, especially since the last comic had a foreshadowing in it. Of course, I realize the Marvel comics were just off shoots of more adventures, not EXACTLY in Greg's scheme of things, but they were still fun to read~ and to see the Gargoyles chars in a darker style.

I'm collecting the new comics, and super happy to see the story being told. I've heard the grips about the artwork, and some of it is justified, but that won't stop me from continuing from purchasing them.

[Goliath]

I know it's an old thread, but because my screen name is 'Goliath', I HAVE to reply here, of course.

I first saw Gargoyles about 10 years ago. I had read about this new series for years, but it would never air over here (Holland), while other, later Disney shows had already aired. Then suddenly, the show started on Sunday mornings as part of a line-up of other non-Disney cartoons. I think most people ever realized it was a Disney production. Not even the network airing it, because Disney shows traditionally get dubbed in Dutch. But this time, we got to watch the original English version (subtitled)... And boy, am I glad we did! This show has the greatest voice cast I've ever heard!

From episode 1 on, I was instantly hooked. I thought, and still think, this is the best animated show I've ever seen. Unfortunately, after quite some time they suddenly began to move the show around, finally settling for Saturday afternoon, which caused me to miss a lot of episodes. Suddenly, I found Goliath, Elisa and an unknown Gargoyle in a gondola traveling around the world...

I had to wait 10 years before I finally got to watch how they ended up there, when all episodes were posted on YouTube. It's the only way for me to watch the show, since no DVD's are available in The Netherlands. (So I don't get why YouTube is referred to as 'low lifers'.) I will never watch the infamous 'Goliath Chronicles', but unfortunately none of the comics are available here either...

[UmbrellaFish]

Okay... I wanting to talk about the topic of "spreading the word".

I've been thinking about it, but isn't the most obvious group to target Star Trek fans, mainly Next Generation? But it seems we've completely avoided them. I checked a couple Star Trek fansites and messageboards, but usually Gargoyles was just treated like a little factoid. Some people remembered it fondly, but were obviously not too aware by calling Elisa "Alyssa" or "Lisa" (that happens a bit too often).

On the other hand, I'm not sure if Gargoyles would be up to most of the group's taste. I've tried to watch Star Trek myself, but I just can't get through any of the versions. But then, there are Gargoyles fans that adore Star Trek, so surely there would be some Star Trek fans who would enjoy Gargoyles.

You know too that most fans would watch the show just because they're curious about all the Star Trek cast members voicing leading roles in Gargoyles. Heck, the very reason why I watched ST: TNG was because I was intrigued to see what Marina Sirtis and Johnathan Frakes did in a different series. All it takes is going on a few message boards and posting links to nayrusavatar's Gargoyles channel on YouTube and spreading the knowledge about the DVDs and comic books. I'm not going to say it'll make a big splash, but it'll make a difference. Nor am I saying we should advertise it. We just need to get the knowlege out there.

Imagine if we did get some new Star Trek fans. Say ten or twenty from every fansite. That's a lot of new fans. Say they all buy the DVDs and comics, and say they all tell their friends, and then they buy the merchandise.

I mean, it's been four years since the last DVD release, but I'm convinced we can get the last volume of season 2. 2009 can be a big year for Gargoyles. What with the possibility of graphic novels and the hope that Disney XD will find a spot for the television show on its schedule and earn us some even younger Gargoyles fans. Think about acquiring a whole new fresh crop of fans for the year 2009. If we can do that in one year, there's no reason why we can't get Season Two, Vol. 2 on DVD and Blu-Ray. There would be no reason why we wouldn't get the graphic novels. There would be no reason why wouldn't get a movie either (which I think Gargoyles would be the perfect franchise for Disney to spin into an action movie). So, all I'm saying is, we should make 2009 stick out on Gargoyle timelines.

1994- The series begins.
1995- Eisner orders 52 episodes of the 2nd season.
1996- The show is canceled.
1997- The first annual Gathering of the Gargoyles convention.
2004- Gargoyles becomes the first Disney animated TV show to be released on a season set.
2005- Gargoyles comic book begins.
2009- The fans kick Gargoyles back into motion.

[Goliath]

I mean, it's been four years since the last DVD release, but I'm convinced we can get the last volume of season 2. 2009 can be a big year for Gargoyles.

If I were Disney, I would have released Season 2, Volume 2. Not because it might sell well, not because it may return (much) profit, but simply because I had already released Volume 1 and Iwanted fans to have the complete series. But then again, I care about animation, not dollars.

There would be no reason why wouldn't get a movie either (which I think Gargoyles would be the perfect franchise for Disney to spin into an action movie).

The only thing I would accept is a fully 2D hand-drawn animated movie. I don't want to see a CGI-animated Goliath, nor do I want to see a life action Elisa. And only if the full original voice cast would participate.

[witchkitten]

If I were Disney, I would have released Season 2, Volume 2. Not because it might sell well, not because it may return (much) profit, but simply because I had already released Volume 1 and Iwanted fans to have the complete series. But then again, I care about animation, not dollars.

I agree with you. It upsets me that when I buy Disney TV shows I can't be sure that I'm going to get a complete series. Sometimes I don't even bother buying them because I hate having an incomplete set (I know it's crazy but I really feel that way. Not only have they not finished this series but they still haven't finished Gummi Bears, Ducktales, Darkwing Duck, and Chip n' Dale's Rescue Rangers (among others that I'm not waiting for) which is really sad. I think that Disney should have more consideration for their fans. There are plenty of other companies out there that finish releasing TV series even though the profits are minimal. I can't see them losing money if they finish releasing these TV series.

That's my .02 cents. Sorry, this is one of the things that bugs to no end. I routinely check this site just to see if there's any updated info for the Disney Afternoon shows.

[UmbrellaFish]

I agree with you. It upsets me that when I buy Disney TV shows I can't be sure that I'm going to get a complete series. Sometimes I don't even bother buying them because I hate having an incomplete set (I know it's crazy but I really feel that way. Not only have they not finished this series but they still haven't finished Gummi Bears, Ducktales, Darkwing Duck, and Chip n' Dale's Rescue Rangers (among others that I'm not waiting for) which is really sad. I think that Disney should have more consideration for their fans. There are plenty of other companies out there that finish releasing TV series even though the profits are minimal. I can't see them losing money if they finish releasing these TV series.

If I were Disney, I would have released Season 2, Volume 2. Not because it might sell well, not because it may return (much) profit, but simply because I had already released Volume 1 and Iwanted fans to have the complete series. But then again, I care about animation, not dollars.

Every fan of every Disney animated show feels that way. But Disney doesn't feel it needs to cater to our needs. Of course, we feel that Disney is missing out on a goldmine. Another reason why the DVDs don't sell well is because they don't ADVERTISE! Or get them in the STORES! I've never seen a single Gargoyles DVD in stores. The only Disney Afternoon DVDs that I've seen in stores are Talespin and Chip 'n Dale: Rescue Rangers in a Barnes and Noble. Ugh.... The stupidity at Disney!!!!

The only thing I would accept is a fully 2D hand-drawn animated movie. I don't want to see a CGI-animated Goliath, nor do I want to see a life action Elisa. And only if the full original voice cast would participate.

I disagree, I would accept a CGI Goliath and a live-action Elisa. Gargoyles would never be made into a traditionally animated film for a few reasons. If Gargoyles is made into a movie, it will most likely be a rehash of Awakenings, the series is just not fresh enough to go to the big screen with an entirely new plot continuing after the comics. Maybe ten years ago that was possible, but not anymore.

That said, if it's a rehash of Awakenings (which I would like to see) they wouldn't dare animate it. It's been done before in 1994, and while you can argue that audiences will watch a straight-forward live-action remake of a live-action movie, it's never been done before with animation. NEVER.

And as a live-action movie, most of the voice cast could return and reprise their roles. I'm sure all the Gargoyles (including Demona/Marina Sirtis) could return, and, let's face it, Goliath is not Goliath without Keith David, if he couldn't do it then there SHOULDN'T be a movie. Salli Richardson probably could, too. I'm on the fence with Johnathan Frakes...

Besides, done well, I think CGI Gargoyles would be fantastic done in motion-capture. I don't have a problem with that at all. I'd prefer a live-action movie over an animated one, actually.

[Goliath]

I agree with you. It upsets me that when I buy Disney TV shows I can't be sure that I'm going to get a complete series. Sometimes I don't even bother buying them because I hate having an incomplete set (I know it's crazy but I really feel that way.

I think many fans feel that way and are wary of buying Disney's tv series on DVD because of this. Which leads to less profit for Disney. Which leads to Disney thinking: "since they don't but it, we won't release the rest". Which leads to fans thinking: "see?". It's a cycle that keeps feeding itself.

Another reason why the DVDs don't sell well is because they don't ADVERTISE! Or get them in the STORES! I've never seen a single Gargoyles DVD in stores. The only Disney Afternoon DVDs that I've seen in stores are Talespin and Chip 'n Dale: Rescue Rangers in a Barnes and Noble. Ugh.... The stupidity at Disney!!!!

How do they expect people to pick up the dvd's when they're not in stores?

I disagree, I would accept a CGI Goliath and a live-action Elisa.

It would totally destory my viewing pleasure. I imagine a CGI-animated Gargoyle would look like a plastic toy...

Gargoyles would never be made into a traditionally animated film for a few reasons. If Gargoyles is made into a movie, it will most likely be a rehash of Awakenings, the series is just not fresh enough to go to the big screen with an entirely new plot continuing after the comics. Maybe ten years ago that was possible, but not anymore.

What makes you think that? I've never read the comics, but at the end of season 2, I thought there would still be a world of possibilities. (I don't count 'Goliath Chronicles'.) Also, I don't think many people know or have read the comics, so it would be likely they'd pick up after season 2. And who knows what Weisman has in mind for the characters?

[UmbrellaFish]

How do they expect people to pick up the dvd's when they're not in stores?

I know, right?! Even when the DVDs were brand new they couldn't be found in stores...

It would totally destory my viewing pleasure. I imagine a CGI-animated Gargoyle would look like a plastic toy...

I think with most of the advancements in CGI, it could be done well. But believe me, I've had my share of nightmares when Disney suddenly decides to make a Gargoyles movie and they botch the CGI.

What makes you think that? I've never read the comics, but at the end of season 2, I thought there would still be a world of possibilities. (I don't count 'Goliath Chronicles'.) Also, I don't think many people know or have read the comics, so it would be likely they'd pick up after season 2. And who knows what Weisman has in mind for the characters?

But after reading the comic books, I think it would be awful to take a step back and go straight to the end of S2. And you're point about not many people reading the comics, while unfortunately, is true, I think it's also true of the series. Unless a major dose of Gargoyles-love sweeps the world, I don't think Disney (or Greg) would decide to make a movie continue after S2.

I've read some fans talking about a pitch that Greg and Michael Reaves wrote for a Garg movie. Supposedly, Goliath, Othello, Lexington were to be the only ones to survive the massacre, and they were the ones who awoke. Honestly, I don't like this scenario at all, but it came from Greg.

Here's an AskGreg Ramble (nearly a decade old!) that tells most of the plot.

In light of the release of the X-MEN movie I thought it would be appropriate to discuss a possible Gargoyles Live-Action Movie.

As most of you know, Disney/Touchstone has literally been developing this for years. So far with no success. But they're still plugging away at it and have hired a new screenwriter recently. I think the success of X-Men may help light a fire under them too.

But let me tell you a story. It was 1995. A Touchstone Executive named Todd Garner wanted to develop the Gargoyles series as a live-action feature. He was told he'd have to deal with Gary Krisel who, as President of Walt Disney TV Animation, had the property under his domain. Gary, in turn, strongly suggested that Todd develop the property with a couple of writers who were familiar with it: Greg Weisman & Michael Reaves. So Touchstone made a deal with Michael and I. We would be "co-producers" of the film. And they gave us a shot at writing the treatment, i.e. the outline for the story. We did that, more or less. Our approach was rejected, more or less, by Todd's bosses at Touchstone. Todd started us on a new approach. Then Gary Krisel announced he was leaving Disney. Very quickly, Michael and I were moved off the project. We're still "co-producers". But that means next-to-nothing. Todd's no longer at Touchstone. In fact, the projects gone through at least five executives I can think of and six writers that I know of. But I'm not exactly in the loop. Still I have a pleasant enough relationship with Jim Wedaa, who's working with the movie's attached producer. So I call him for updates periodically. He promises that if they ever get a script they like, they'll send it to me. I'm not holding my breath. But you never know.

Anyway, I thought it might be an interesting subject of discussion to reveal what Michael & I had planned for the movie. I feel safe revealing this, since I know it's not going to be used.

Keep in mind, we all felt that we needed to start the continuity over from scratch. The series (which was still in production at the time) would have it's own continuity. The movie continuity would exist in a kind of parallel universe. Hopefully, it would all be emotionally the same. But details would differ. We wanted to simplify the complex plotting a bit. (Not make it unintelligent, just clean it up a bit.) We wanted to leave room open for sequels. But we wanted to tell one GREAT story, as if we'd only ever get one shot.

That story would, more or less, be AWAKENING.

But we made some changes.

For starters, we put Macbeth in charge of Castle Wyvern. In one version he had the Magus by his side. In another, the Archmage. In yet a third, we made Macbeth himself a bit of a sorceror king. At any rate, Katharine became his daughter. I know this sounds treasonous. But doing this allowed us to simplify all sorts of backstory, and allowed us (at least in the nefarious backs of our minds) to plan for a Macbeth sequel. And an Avalon sequel with Katharine and the eggs.

We also were forced to ditch the notion of the Gargoyles not having names. There wasn't time to explore it unfortunately, and it is a complicated idea. Goliath remained Goliath. Demona was Angel. Lexington became Alexander (but still Lex for short). Hudson became "Mentor" in one draft. "Soldier" in another. And a fifth prominent character was Othello. Brooklyn, Bronx and Broadway had cameos in the eleventh century flashback that more-or-less opened the film.

Once we got to the present, we had Xanatos, Sevarius and Owen. They awaken three gargoyles: Goliath, Lex and Othello. They tell them that as far as they know these three are the only three that survived. Elisa is introduced, but she doesn't meet Goliath right away. She investigates a number of strange incidents and mysterious reports (with Matt's help and under Chavez's command). She discovers the secret of the Gargoyles over time. Then Elisa and Goliath both take time to learn to trust each other. The whole Cyberbiotics plot is there but simplified. Demona resurfaces and basically becomes the main villain in the movie. (In an earlier draft, we saved her to be a main villain in a sequel.) Othello doesn't fair too well in the present. (Thus setting up a possible Coldstone sequel.) Xanatos runs a whole series of tests on Goliath, (setting up a Thailog sequel). Goliath, Elisa and Lex manage to triumph over their opponents (which included Steel Clan Robots and Xanatos in his Gargoyle-Armor). In the epilogue, they find a cache of additional undestroyed gargoyles: Hudson/Mentor/Soldier, Brooklyn, Broadway and Bronx (and in one draft, Angel/Demona). The movie ends on a hopeful note as these new Gargs are awakened.

Obviously, I'm not attempting to tell a coherent story above, but to show you what our strategy was. We were going to start over. Use a clean, straightforward story. Focus on the KEY Goliath/Elisa relationship. Intro elements that could be used for sequels but didn't require you to already know history. And didn't distract from the single big story we were trying to tell in THIS movie. There'd be a lot of tasty tidbits for diehard fans of the show. But we'd still have a brand new story that a new audience could follow.

That was the plan.

Of course, I have no idea what Touchstone's current plan is. But no matter what they do, I'm rooting for the movie. Because that movie is the surest way for us to get the series back on the air.

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/arc ... 96&ppp=ALL July 19, 2000

This was pitch written while Gargoyles was still airing new episodes, but even then they were contemplating a movie that would basically be Awakenings.

[witchkitten]

How do they expect people to pick up the dvd's when they're not in stores?

I know, right?! Even when the DVDs were brand new they couldn't be found in stores...

I can't speak to Gargoyles because I wasn't looking for the DVDs right after the release but the local Best Buys and Frys around me have ample copies of the Disney Afternoon shows. I still see tons of copies and it's been a while since Disney released the sets. But I guess they aren't stocked in all areas. I agree that they needed to advertise more, especially on The Disney Channel and Toon Disney which don't have traditional commercials but do promote Disney DVD releases and shows.

[Chernabog_Rocks]

How do they expect people to pick up the dvd's when they're not in stores?

What makes you think that? I've never read the comics, but at the end of season 2, I thought there would still be a world of possibilities. (I don't count 'Goliath Chronicles'.) Also, I don't think many people know or have read the comics, so it would be likely they'd pick up after season 2. And who knows what Weisman has in mind for the characters?

Part of the blame for dvds not being in stores can be given to the stores themselves. Stores order the merchandise in I believe, so if they choose not to order in a certain product then obviously you won't be able to get it at that location. There were these Marvel/DC Trading cards I wanted but we never got them in stock at any stores because they didn't order the cards. So don't blame Disney 100% for that since it might be the stores fault as well

I haven't read the comics simply because none of the the stores here seem to carry them. I also can't order things online so I can't get them that way either

[Goliath]

But after reading the comic books, I think it would be awful to take a step back and go straight to the end of S2.

But rehashing 'Awakenings' would be even a bigger step back...

And you're point about not many people reading the comics, while unfortunately, is true, I think it's also true of the series. Unless a major dose of Gargoyles-love sweeps the world, I don't think Disney (or Greg) would decide to make a movie continue after S2.

I think that would make more sense, since a Gargoyles-movie would be targeted at people who are already fans.

I've read some fans talking about a pitch that Greg and Michael Reaves wrote for a Garg movie. Supposedly, Goliath, Othello, Lexington were to be the only ones to survive the massacre, and they were the ones who awoke. Honestly, I don't like this scenario at all, but it came from Greg.

Here's an AskGreg Ramble (nearly a decade old!) that tells most of the plot.

If I understand correctly, they were already planning a live action film when the series was still in the making? How ould they have done that, in 1994, with the state CGI was in at that time? I think it would have been too poor to animate the gargoyles. Sure, you had the Pixar movies not long after, but even those only animated toys, animals, objects etc.

I don't see the need for a movie with that kind of plot. Why would you have two different conituities (one for the film and one for the series)? That doesn't make any sense and I doubt fans would want to see their beloved show butched like that. The plot also strikes me as pretty simplistic, not very engaging. It also seems Weisman was thinking more about potential sequels than he was thinking about the characters.

[Atlantis]

How can you expect a live action series to be in continuation with a cartoon series? And how do you expect a movie to make that much money if it is mainly targeted at the people who watch the show? Not that many people watched Gargolyes, and a lot of those people were children. They would need to target a new audience and make it a wider appeal and an origin story so people who didnt watch the cartoon would know what was going on.

Just look at Dragon Ball the cartoon and DB movie. Two totally different universes.

[Goliath]

How can you expect a live action series to be in continuation with a cartoon series?

Well, they could do a live-action remake of 'Awakenings'. The story doesn't need changing. It's just a different format.

And how do you expect a movie to make that much money if it is mainly targeted at the people who watch the show?

Good point.

[UmbrellaFish]

We got another Gargoyles statue to tide up over until Tiki's release.

http://www.toyark.com/news/disney-toy-n ... tatue-722/



Personally, I don't think it's as good as Tiki's designs and (as noted in the lower posts on the toyark page), it originally started as a knock-off. But at least this is further proof that Disney has some faith in the franchise (two T-shirts, the whole comic series, and these new sculptures).

[SpaceAce]

That's a nice statue. Bowen does awesome work on their statues, but i'll wait for the Electric Tiki one. I really hope Sideshow makes a Goliath in their Disney Premium Format series.

[Goliath]

What if they did a live-action movie? Who would you prefer to play the different parts? I've been thinking that Sarah Shahi (Dani Reese on Life; also on The L Word) would make a great Elisa. I'm not exactly sure why. Well, she plays a detective on Life, so that's a given. I think she displays the same no-nonsense attitude in that part, that would fit Elisa Maza. I'm not sure about the fysical similarities, although she has black hair and a slightly dark skin.

[DARTH KNITE]

I'm sorry, but I place them blame squarely on the show's creator. He was a fool to release them in split sets. If he was able to get them to agree to doing the second season, if never should have even considered splitting them in two. It was his choice and he even said in a statement that he wanted to do it in 3 volumes having the finale be by itself. He was not thinking.

[UmbrellaFish]

Kind of old news, but if you don't frequent the S8 Comment Boards, then take a look at this, the Star-Wars inspired cover to Clan-Building Vol. 2 coming out this June:


POSSIBLE SPOILERS!





My thoughts: When I first saw it, I was surprised. Very unlike Gargoyles, to have a huge reference/parody like that. I've since warmed up to it, and the only part that bothers me is Brooklyn, whose wings don't seem quite right. Should contain some very interesting stories, however.

[UmbrellaFish]

Some bad news- this upcoming Gathering will be the last one, at least for sometime. On the up side, Marina Sirtis, Demona herself, will be appearing.


I wish I could have been able to attend one of these, but, who knows, I wouldn't be too surprised to see the con rebooted in some form, eventually.