Walt Disney Treasures Wave VIII Discussion

[dvdjunkie]

Message for Ichabod:

Please don't fool yourself into thinking a 4:3 picture can ever be the same as a 16X9. It is still pan & scan - that's what recompositing means, they move things around to the center of the picture...........d'oh!!!

All movies, tv shows, sports, whatever, should be watched in their original aspect ratio. If you can't live with that, then quit complaining.

I happen to own four of the Cinemascope cartoons on 35mm stock, and I can assure you, that if you think you are seeing the whole scene in a cartoon that has been "recomposited", you are sadly mistaken.

[Escapay]

It is still pan & scan - that's what recompositing means, they move things around to the center of the picture...........d'oh!!!

Not always, Bill.

Usually when a 16:9 image gets modified to be 4:3, it's like this...



But not always. For a variety of films, a 4:3 of a 16:9 image is open-matte, where information is gained on the top and bottom and some is lost on the sides (but not necessarily constituting a "scan" like in pan&scan)...




The caps above show The Shaggy Dog in both matted black&white widescreen and unmatted colourised fullscreen.

Using A Bug's Life as an animation example, they recomposited the entire movie in four different ways in order to make a fullscreen version:


Restage - elements are moved around and more is added to the top and bottom in order for the original frame to be preserved, however now fitting in a 4:3 frame. Look how much closer the ant is in the foreground, how they added more to the top and bottom of the picture, and how everything else stays the same.


Frame Height - similar to restage except the 16:9 frame is untouched, and more picture is instead added to the top and bottom.


Crop - on shots where the "camera" doesn't move, they crop out the sides so that only the central action remains. Like pan-and-scan, except without any...pan.


Scan - the scan of pan-and-scan. Notice how the action is slightly off-centre in the 16:9 frame, but centre in the 4:3 frame.

What ichabod is referring to (recompositing elements for a 2D film) is what happened to Lady and the Tramp when they animated it. There was a CinemaScope version and an Academy version done, so that smaller markets who didn't have CinemaScope abilities could project the Academy version. (pictures courtesy of mvealf)


Top - CinemaScope
Middle - Pan&Scan of CinemaScope
Bottom - Academy Recomposite


Top - CinemaScope
Bottom - Academy Recomposite showing additional image on top.

I haven't had a chance to watch the CinemaScope shorts ichabod's referring to (unfortunately, haven't had a chance to watch any of Chronological Donald Volume Four aside from "Bee on Guard"), but I'll try and watch it later this weekend and compare it to fullscreen versions to see if there are any recompositions or if they're straight pan&scan.

albert

[ichabod]

Message for Ichabod:

Please don't fool yourself into thinking a 4:3 picture can ever be the same as a 16X9. It is still pan & scan - that's what recompositing means, they move things around to the center of the picture...........d'oh!!!

You are quite wrong. As Escapay as has already pointed out. Often there are perfectly viable fullscreen and widescreen versions.

All movies, tv shows, sports, whatever, should be watched in their original aspect ratio. If you can't live with that, then quit complaining.

Often a movie has more than one "correct" aspect ratio, such as "Lady and the Tramp".When the cinemacope Donald Duck cartoons were released, not all theatres were capable of showing cinemascope. Thus 4:3 versions of the cartoons also exist. These are simply pan and scan versions of the cinemacope picture. As I mentioned in my previous, you can compare your cinemascope version of "Bearly Asleep" etc on the new Donald 4 DVD to the fullscreen version and see that actually it's an entirely recomposited shot.

I happen to own four of the Cinemascope cartoons on 35mm stock, and I can assure you, that if you think you are seeing the whole scene in a cartoon that has been "recomposited", you are sadly mistaken.

I'm afraid it is you that are sadly mistaken. In fact in some cases it appears the cinemascope frame is simply a cropped version of the full frame. For example compare the shot of the bears walking past the mountain to their cave in "Bearly Asleep". In fact if you watch the cinemascope version you may well ask yourself "What mountain" since the mountain is only visible in the full frame version.

If I had the ability to take screencaps of R1 DVDs, I'd show you what I mean!

[dvdjunkie]

I don't want to beat a dead horse to death, but both Escapay and Ichabod are losing sight of what is going on here. Recomposition is taking a full 16x9 frame and through a squeezing technique they call recompositing they are giving the semblance of a 4:3 picture.

Having worked as a motion picture projectionist for over 30 years I can tell you that it is still considered pan & scan when you mess with the finished product. I have seen two of the Donald Duck shorts that were originally Cinemascope that were 'recomposited' to a 4:3 image and they don't look too bad, but once you have seen the full picture it always feels like you are missing something.

I think that you are whining to the wrong people here at the UD forums about this. You should put all of your concerns into an intelligently conceived letter and send it to the people at Disney who are responsible for all of this and see what they have to say about it. Complaining about something that you can do nothing about to this forum doesn't get anywhere but a lot of replies that are sometimes misdirected in content.

I always thought that a forum like this was for discussion of positive things, not whining about things we can do nothing about.

[MK Sharp]

I don't want to beat a dead horse to death, but both Escapay and Ichabod are losing sight of what is going on here. Recomposition is taking a full 16x9 frame and through a squeezing technique they call recompositing they are giving the semblance of a 4:3 picture.

It's not doing anything with the 16:9 frame. The recomposited versions have clearly been shot from scratch in a 4:3 ratio, and the cels have been placed in different positions relative to the background and each other to format the film for a 4:3 presentation.

One of the best examples of this is Toot, Whistle, Plunk & Boom. If you compare the 4:3 version released on VHS to the widescreen version on DVD, you will quickly see how the cels have been rearranged to fit the differing picture shapes.

[merlinjones]

Used copies of "Dr. Syn" on Amazon now start at $59. (after only three weeks since its release!):

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... eimprovemz

But it's still listed at DisneyShopping.com at original price:

http://disneyshopping.go.com/disney/sto ... :DSISearch

...and Best Buy.com, though the store locator says its out of stock anywhere nearby in Los Angeles:

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp ... id=1355288

All with no advertising to the general public. Think WDHV underestimates Walt's library or what?

[Darby]

Used copies of "Dr. Syn" on Amazon now start at $59. (after only three weeks since its release!):

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... eimprovemz

But it's still listed at DisneyShopping.com at original price:

http://disneyshopping.go.com/disney/sto ... :DSISearch

...and Best Buy.com, though the store locator says its out of stock anywhere nearby in Los Angeles:

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp ... id=1355288

All with no advertising to the general public. Think WDHV underestimates Walt's library or what?

Incredible isn't it? Maybe it will have an effect on how WDHV release the older titles in their catalog.

I just might buy a second copy via Disney Shopping just in case.

Darby

[a-net-fan]

I disagree with those who feel Dr Syn deserves another release. This is a perfect presentation of the film/ series and I think it would be unfair to collectors to do something like that. Im sure the ppl who really want it have gotten it by now and if they havent they better move on it. Im sure it will be the first from this wave to sell out. Besides, there are plenty of copies left out there at this point ....you just have to look...

How on earth is it "unfair to collectors" to have a more widespread, mainstream release of Dr. Syn available. It in no way takes away from anyone else. It doesn't make your dvd less enjoyable to have other people be able to see the movie. It's a very shortsighted and selfish point of view in my opinion. I have the treasures collection, but I think it would be great if a similar mainstream release was made available just like Disney did with the Davy Crockett and Mickey Mouse Club dvd's (and to a lesser extent with the b&w mickey cartoons).

Sure it does. This product was released as a limited edition.....and to just repackage this material and release it in a more general release, most likey at a lower price, is unfair to those of us who support this release. Iv always felt this way about all the material released in the treasures series and believe I shared that view before. Its not selfish....it would just feel like what the company did when they released the first wave in an unlimited edition. Maybe after a decade or so it would be ok for the company to consider a more general release of this material.....but to do that anytime in the near future wouldnt be right.

[Barbossa]

Used copies of "Dr. Syn" on Amazon now start at $59. (after only three weeks since its release!):

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... eimprovemz

Wow! I'm glad I got it on the first day!

Amazingly our local Walmart got a few of the Donald Duck and Annette sets this year. They haven't had the WDT sets for a few years. I went there today an all they had left were two Annettes.

[merlinjones]

FYI: For those locals with Annual Passports, I was at Disneyland tonight and they have copies of "Dr. Syn" in the Music Shop and Disneyana Shop - - I didn't check World of Disney.

BTW - - I very much hope for the general public that Disney does a broad movie only release of this title as they did for "Davy Crockett." The rest of the baby boomers who have waited so long also deserve to see it again. Many of those who would be interested don't even know its out or where to get it.

Walt was all about sharing his films and stories with the people - - not collecting artificially limited editions - - that's just a contrivance of marketers. What's most important is to pass the films along to the next generation.

[dvdjunkie]

Anyone who has a Costco or a Sam's Club near them can pick up the Three Disney Treasurs in their tins for the low price of $21.83 (Sam's) and $21.99 (Costco) and they have plenty in stock. I was at a local Sam's and they had at least twenty of each title, and there were boxes under the racks. At Costco they had a big display rack of nothing but the three titles available and they had at least twenty of each title.

It's time to go shopping!!!

[gardener14]

How on earth is it "unfair to collectors" to have a more widespread, mainstream release of Dr. Syn available. It in no way takes away from anyone else. It doesn't make your dvd less enjoyable to have other people be able to see the movie. It's a very shortsighted and selfish point of view in my opinion. I have the treasures collection, but I think it would be great if a similar mainstream release was made available just like Disney did with the Davy Crockett and Mickey Mouse Club dvd's (and to a lesser extent with the b&w mickey cartoons).

Sure it does. This product was released as a limited edition.....and to just repackage this material and release it in a more general release, most likey at a lower price, is unfair to those of us who support this release. Iv always felt this way about all the material released in the treasures series and believe I shared that view before. Its not selfish....it would just feel like what the company did when they released the first wave in an unlimited edition. Maybe after a decade or so it would be ok for the company to consider a more general release of this material.....but to do that anytime in the near future wouldnt be right.

I guess we'll just disagree, then, because I don't see how a different but similar general release of Dr. Syn would diminish what you own in any way. If it was repackaged with a different look and maybe with only the theatrical version, it would be a different product. The general release of the Davy Crockett movies does not make your WDT version any less of a "collector's item."

Anyway, I have most of the WDT dvd's and I don't view them as collector's items at all. I view them as I do any other dvd that I enjoy. The fact that some of them are in limited supply and sell for more than they should is disappointing...especially knowing that I bought most of mine at reasonable prices. If people are willing to buy a title, then it should be made available on a semi-regular basis (like the animated classics), if not in constant release.

[BILLONEE]

I wouldn't mind the main feature of a WDT set being released in a standard way as long as the WDT set maintains exclusivity for the bonus material.

[merlinjones]

If I were to narrow my list of Treasures hopefuls to 3 for the next wave, I'd choose:

1) Ludwig Von Drake Vol. 1 (a definite - - at least half of Ludwig's 18 uncut "Wonderful World of Color" episodes and the featurette should be here).

2) Zorro (another definite with the 2 theatrical features "The Sign of Zorro" and "Zorro the Avenger" plus the 4 original one hour "Walt Disney Presents" episodes).

3) Jiminy Cricket (another definite: all of the "Encyclopedia" "I'm No Fool" and other MMC educational shorts, plus the restored Jiminy hosted TV hours "Jiminy Cricket Presents Bongo," "On Vacation," "From All of Us to All of You" and "This is Your Life Donald Duck" - - plus 50's commercials. With "Pinocchio" out this year, a good tie-in.).

All three popular and recognizable characters. Great material. I don't see how anyone would be disappointed with that lineup.

[Flanger-Hanger]

Except for those who would want a 4 title Treasure in which I would add Elfego Baca / Swamp Fox volume 2 or Prince and the Pauper to your list Merlin.

[merlinjones]

Agreed Flanger -- 4 Treasures would be great -- and I think The Prince and the Pauper would be an ideal choice to compliment those other 3 titles!

[Darby]

Agreed Flanger -- 4 Treasures would be great -- and I think The Prince and the Pauper would be an ideal choice to compliment those other 3 titles!

Here, here on both counts!

Darby

[disneyboy20022]

4 WDT DVD at once?...I don't think so....

How about 5 at once or 2 waves of 5 twice a year

March 2009 Wave 9 - set of 5

December 2009 - Wave 10 -set of 5

I want more Disney Treasures to discover on DVD Yee-Haw!!

[Escapay]

I agree with gardener14. There's nothing wrong with a mainstream release of material that's in the Treasures. After all, in addition to the movie versions of "Davy Crockett", we've seen a few dozen cartoon compilations which featured animated shorts from the Treasures sets (and some which at the time of printing weren't yet on Treasures). And excerpts from some of the "Disneyland" episodes were on a few non-Treasures DVDs (Fantasia Anthology, a couple Platinums, Darby O'Gill..., etc.).

Just because the collectors are creating an artificial scarcity of the Treasures doesn't mean that Disney should just listen to them and say, "Okay, we'll only have 39,500 copies of Dr. Syn out there even if there will be people who'll want it but not have a chance to get the Treasures set."

Im sure the ppl who really want it have gotten it by now and if they havent they better move on it.

There are people who are discovering and rediscovering Disney all the time. Why deny them the chance to acquire a movie/tv series simply because they didn't get it when it was first released? For example, look at any new member who comes here and says, "I just rediscovered my love of Disney, and I'm trying to collect the OOP movies, can anyone help?" Should we simply say to them, "Haha, you don't have the movies yet, we do! Sucks to be you!" or do we help them build their collection?

How on earth is it "unfair to collectors" to have a more widespread, mainstream release of Dr. Syn available. It in no way takes away from anyone else. It doesn't make your dvd less enjoyable to have other people be able to see the movie. It's a very shortsighted and selfish point of view in my opinion. I have the treasures collection, but I think it would be great if a similar mainstream release was made available just like Disney did with the Davy Crockett and Mickey Mouse Club dvd's (and to a lesser extent with the b&w mickey cartoons).

Sure it does. This product was released as a limited edition.....

Disney has always maintained that only the tins are limited, and that the content on the discs are always up for re-release. They know that there are collectors out there spending an arm and a leg for "Mickey Mouse in Living Color, Volume One", and that's money that's not going into Disney's pockets anymore. They won't let that go unnoticed.

and to just repackage this material and release it in a more general release, most likey at a lower price

May I introduce...

Classic Cartoon Favorites, Volumes One through Twelve
Walt Disney's Funny Factory, Volumes One through Four
Timeless Tales, Volumes One through Three
It's A Small World of Fun!, Volumes One through Four
Vintage Mickey
The Best of the Mickey Mouse Club

is unfair to those of us who support this release.

Fair or not, Disney does not cater to fans regardless of when they bought a release. They're a business just like any other and if they see it fit to re-release material again (regardless if it's in a lesser quality mainstream release or if it's better than the original release), they can do so as they please. For every 10 disgruntled fans who cry foul because they bought the original release, there will be 100 more who'll be glad to get their hands on the material, either for the first time because they didn't want to pay the big $$$ to e-bay scalpers, or again because they just like collecting it in different formats.

Maybe after a decade or so it would be ok for the company to consider a more general release of this material.....but to do that anytime in the near future wouldnt be right.

The two-movie collection for "Davy Crockett" came a mere 3 years after its Treasures release. And there weren't many collectors crying foul over that (especially since the movie versions wasn't on the Treasures, and it came with a Chip'n'Dale cartoon). A decade is too much, especially given that Dr. Syn (in its movie form) was originally supposed to come to DVD more than 4 years ago. We've waited long enough, we're not gonna wait any longer.

If it was repackaged with a different look and maybe with only the theatrical version, it would be a different product.

It originally was supposed to be just the theatrical version when it was up for a catalogue release in 2004. It then got pulled from the schedule and we never heard about it until news got out last year that Patrick McGoohan shot some interviews for a DVD release (but even then we didn't know if it'd be Treasures or non-Treasures).

Anyway, I'm all for re-releasing Treasures material in a mainstream general release (extras and all, and in some cases, they could be released with better extras). After all, we don't see Warner hurtin' from having the Golden Collections in print for the long run.

albert

[David S.]

BTW - - I very much hope for the general public that Disney does a broad movie only release of this title as they did for "Davy Crockett." The rest of the baby boomers who have waited so long also deserve to see it again. Many of those who would be interested don't even know its out or where to get it.

Walt was all about sharing his films and stories with the people - - not collecting artificially limited editions - - that's just a contrivance of marketers. What's most important is to pass the films along to the next generation.

Anyway, I have most of the WDT dvd's and I don't view them as collector's items at all. I view them as I do any other dvd that I enjoy. The fact that some of them are in limited supply and sell for more than they should is disappointing...especially knowing that I bought most of mine at reasonable prices. If people are willing to buy a title, then it should be made available on a semi-regular basis (like the animated classics), if not in constant release.

I agree with gardener14. There's nothing wrong with a mainstream release of material that's in the Treasures. After all, in addition to the movie versions of "Davy Crockett", we've seen a few dozen cartoon compilations which featured animated shorts from the Treasures sets (and some which at the time of printing weren't yet on Treasures). And excerpts from some of the "Disneyland" episodes were on a few non-Treasures DVDs (Fantasia Anthology, a couple Platinums, Darby O'Gill..., etc.).

Just because the collectors are creating an artificial scarcity of the Treasures doesn't mean that Disney should just listen to them and say, "Okay, we'll only have 39,500 copies of Dr. Syn out there even if there will be people who'll want it but not have a chance to get the Treasures set."

There are people who are discovering and rediscovering Disney all the time. Why deny them the chance to acquire a movie/tv series simply because they didn't get it when it was first released? For example, look at any new member who comes here and says, "I just rediscovered my love of Disney, and I'm trying to collect the OOP movies, can anyone help?" Should we simply say to them, "Haha, you don't have the movies yet, we do! Sucks to be you!" or do we help them build their collection?

I STRONGLY agree with everyone I quoted above!

I've been in the position of being on the "outside looking in" regarding missing a rare release of something I TRULY want that has gone out of print, and also in the position of owning a title I really LOVE that just happens to be rare.

And while it is disapointing when one finds oneself trying to locate these OOP titles, I can honestly say that when I am fortunate enough to own one, I get NO JOY WHATSOEVER in the fact that the DVD I am enjoying is "rare" and "limited".

The JOY comes from being able to enjoy material that I love and makes me happy - whether there are 1,000 copies in existence or 10 million, it is the actual WATCHING of the DVD that makes me happy - not the idea that I have something rare and "exclusive" that others who would truly love to own can't find!

So I have no problem whatsoever with Disney re-releasing any of the Treasures material so more people can enjoy it, whether they are longtime fans or new fans being exposed to the classics for the first time.

I say, make Walt available to the masses!

David

PS. I even try to buy my Treasures from retailers that have several copies on hand, when possible - because the times when I got the last copy on the shelf always made me feel bad that, if that particular store didn't restock the title anytime soon, (or ever) my purchase may have stopped someone else from ever owning that particular release!