Passion of the Christ

[AwallaceUNC]

Sorry, I don't get what you're asking here.

I wasnt asking anyone a question, I was posing a question and answering it. Who are they [the 144,000] going to rule over with Jesus? which I answered: "The bible speaks of a great crowd that no man was able to number of all nations, tribes, and peoples (Rev 7:9,10,14) These are the ones that have survives the great tribulation and will live on earth under new rulership under Jesus and the 144,000."

Gotchya... just didn't understand you.

Why would he destroy his wonderful work to create it again? I think the first would be more reasonable, logical, and easier for him than start from scratch. 2 Th 1:6-9 again explains this ungodly people will be destroyed, cut of from existance, poof be gone, etc... again not the literal earth will be destroyed.

Again, we agree . It's an earth without end. When I said "new earth", I didn't mean in terms of physicality, but in terms of the new age on earth.

Rev 7:9,14 says "The Great Crowd have come out of the great tribulation" have come out means that they've survived it, they were in it [The Tribulation] but have come out alive from it.

This verse talks about their souls. This multitude has accepted Jesus and are now members of the kingdom of Heaven. They have been harvested out of the great tribulation... that doesn't mean they emerged following the tribulation. Revelation is mostly chronological, it makes no sense for this to be described in the middle of the tribulation if it happens afterwards. Revelation 7 starts with "after this," meaning after the Seal judgements, and prior to the trumpet judgements.

-Aaron

[MickeyMouseboy]

Rev 7:9,14 says "The Great Crowd have come out of the great tribulation" have come out means that they've survived it, they were in it [The Tribulation] but have come out alive from it.

This verse talks about their souls. This multitude has accepted Jesus and are now members of the kingdom of Heaven. They have been harvested out of the great tribulation... that doesn't mean they emerged following the tribulation. Revelation is mostly chronological, it makes no sense for this to be described in the middle of the tribulation if it happens afterwards. Revelation 7 starts with "after this," meaning after the Seal judgements, and prior to the trumpet judgements.

-Aaron

If this Great Crowd is supposed to go to heaven then why would someone pray or ask for God's Kingdom to come to earth as is in heaven if the two, the 144,000 and the great crowd are suppose to go to heaven? This verses would not make sense either. Mt 6:9,10; Re 21: 2-5. Do you believe in life after death? if so, then the Resurrection would not fit into this theory. Read Mt 24:21 and Mr 13:19 (Ref Rev 7: 9, 14) which speaks about the days of the great tribulation. if this days were cut short no flesh would be saved but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short. Here is talking about chosen ones flesh will survive and in account of them this days of tribulation will be cut short. Also Ps 72: 7,8 (reference Rev 7:16) talks about humans in the flesh been subjects on God from river to the ends of the earth after this system of things is destroyed and God takes over.

[Loomis]

Sorry to interrupt the pretty intense theological discussion here, but I found this in a review of Texas Chainsaw Massacre of all places, and I thought it was really good:

So I will stump for the minority opinion and proclaim that horror is still the most humanistic type of film you can make. Because it reminds us that it is good to be alive, and that we should appreciate it. (Unlike a film such as The Passion of the Christ, which Ebert gave four stars, and uses its relentless cavalcade of graphic violence to tell us that we are inherently sinful creatures and should beg for forgiveness for the mere act of being human.)

This seems to reaffirm a problem I have with this type of film (again, I can't bring myself to see it, but...): "Whats the point of the "end" with out seeing the 'life'"? *

How does everyone else feel on this point?


(apologies to 2099net)

[MickeyMouseboy]

I don't agree with DVDfile person dude hehe The movie is there to show us what Jesus endured to save us from sin. The world sadly have forgetten this or don't care. I think is a nice movie to start and to reaffirm our faith. I never thought this film was made to make us feel guilty in anyway. I'm glad the Mel didn't censor the movie but went all out word by word is like been there watching all the torture and ridicule Christ endured for all humankind to ransom us from sin.

[karlsen]

But do you realy need to see it like this to understand what he went thru?

When I read the Bible I get a clear picture of how terrible it was, I realy do not need to see a movie with all the terrible things to see that.

I think the problem today is that either you belive or you don't. Going to the cinema and watching this movie does not give you any more christians (only irritated Jews).

[Loomis]

The movie is there to show us what Jesus endured to save us from sin. The world sadly have forgetten this or don't care. I think is a nice movie to start and to reaffirm our faith. ...is like been there watching all the torture and ridicule Christ endured for all humankind to ransom us from sin.

Yes, but that is my point (and the DVD File dude's) exactly. By simply showing the "ending" and the "suffering" are you really showing what was at stake?

I mean, Jesus - depending on your religious POV - died for our sins. And he had a message. But by simply showing how he died, and not how he lived, you are ignoring that message to a large extent, and just concentrating on the "dying for sins"/suffering part.

There is a sign outside a church near where I live, that tends to put up signs that correlate to the latest movies. I think the minister is a bit of a movie buff. The latest sign is "They ask 'Who killed him?' Better question, 'Who raised him?'." I think that says it all for me. You can't judge a man's life - any man - simply by the way he died.

By simply showing the needless suffering of a man, without going back and looking and what he taught to get there, you are covering his message, like his body, with violence and hatred. Jesus taught peace, yet the focus here seems to be the violence at the end of his life.

If your faith is reaffirmed by watching a man get crucified, and not simply by looking out the window and seeing how great the world can be, then I'm sorry but I have to question your faith.

[catNC]

I totally agree with what you have said Loomis. But perhaps this movie will get people to really want to find out who exactly Jesus was and still is, to learn about His physical life and more about His spiritual existence. I think that is Mr. Gibson's hope for this movie. By showing how much suffering one man went through for every soul in the world, people who don't know enough about Jesus or just want to learn more about Him, this film will get people thinking and wanting to know more about Him and His whole life. I see it as more of a seed planting than an actual way to share the entire gospel of Jesus Christ. However, the "dying for our sins" part of the whole story of Jesus, is one of the key points in the Christian faith. Of course, if, three days later, Christ was not resurrected, Christianity wouldn't have a leg to stand on. But, the crucifixion of Jesus is the easiest way for our simple human minds to really connect with Jesus on a physical level. And I believe this movie does just that. It gets us thinking more about what Jesus did for us, and His life as a whole. (I haven't seen the film yet. I hope to see it soon though. My opinion is based from what I have heard others say about the film)

[Disneykid]

Cat hit the nail on the head (morbid pun not intended). People have taken for granted what the crucifixion really was all about. Too many Jesus films gloss it over in a bloodless 2-minute scene. The problem with that is people begin to think that Christ's sacrifice wasn't much of a sacrifice at all. My English teacher saw the film and she said that she always knew the crucifixion was horrible, but always figured that since Christ is God, it was no big deal for Him, and that when she saw The Passion, she realized for the first time that Christ was really 100% man as well as 100% God and had His own fears and struggled to overcome (wow, that's one heck of a run-on sentence). I've always noted how the crucifixion was more horrific than what the films showed, and I've even read detailed articles on it and seen documentaries on it, but my perception of it totally changed when I saw the movie. Basically, people will grab from this movie what they want to grab. I, personally, saw a film how about just how much Christ loved me and how no matter what, He was going to carry out His mission while keeping me in mind the entire time.

[MickeyMouseboy]

To Loomis: (to save bandwidth)

Well if Jesus wouldnt have pulled thru all this none of us would have been randomed from sin or have a chance to be saved. Even thought the prophecies were written, Jesus had free will and could have given up or even thought are these human worth it? everything was at stake at this point. would Jesus falter and give up? would he go thru it all? It shows the human cruelty and how low we can go, how sinful we are, how much God loved the world to give his only begotten son to go thru all that torture, proves God's word is faithful and it will come to pass, God proved satan wrong that sinful humans can't follow his rules, proved the corruption of God's religion at the time and how now in this time we live in there's so many false religions out there and we need to make sure we're following the right one, the resurrection, and obedience to God will be rewarded. If you look aside from seing the violence but why he went thru it and why we need to be reminded of this things again and again is to keep us in the right path towards salvation like 2 Pe 1:12 says " For this reason I shall be disposed always to remind you of these things, although you know [Them] and are firmly set in the truth that is present [in you]" Peter wrote this letter to the congregations cause there were some that were going astray and he reminded of past things to reinforce their faith and to warn them about false prophets and sects. 2 Pe chp 2-3 goes more in depth.

[Rebel]

Sorry to interrupt the pretty intense theological discussion here, but I found this in a review of Texas Chainsaw Massacre of all places, and I thought it was really good:

So I will stump for the minority opinion and proclaim that horror is still the most humanistic type of film you can make. Because it reminds us that it is good to be alive, and that we should appreciate it. (Unlike a film such as The Passion of the Christ, which Ebert gave four stars, and uses its relentless cavalcade of graphic violence to tell us that we are inherently sinful creatures and should beg for forgiveness for the mere act of being human.)

This seems to reaffirm a problem I have with this type of film (again, I can't bring myself to see it, but...): "Whats the point of the "end" with out seeing the 'life'"? *

How does everyone else feel on this point?

If you would go see the movie then you would understand the point far better than any of us here could ever explain it to you.

It is also quite obvious that the Texas Chain Saw reviewer never saw The Passion of the Christ either. He is so very very off base with his claim that the movie uses a relentless cavalcade of graphic violence to tell us that we are inherently sinful creatures and should beg for forgiveness for the mere act of being human. A person would have to be a total moron to watch the movie and then be so far wrong. The movie is about love and sacrifice; it is not about guilt or begging for forgiveness. The reviewer apparently has a strong prejudicial bias that has caused him to make false assumptions about a film about Jesus.

Meanwhile he applauds a horror movie that glorifies gore and violence. He proclaims that despite having virtually no plot that it is a life-affirming film with an urgent worthwhile message. Like many other Texas Chainsaw Massacre fans, Peter is probably inclined to cheer for Leatherface and eagerly anticipate the death and/or dismemberment of his next victim. Horror fans tend to watch the meat hook scene with a smile of pleasure on their faces and they immediately want to see it again. However, in contrast, The Passion of the Christ takes all of the fun out of inhumane brutality. Only extremely sick individuals really wants to see Jesus receive another lashing.

[Rebel]

But do you realy need to see it like this to understand what he went thru?

When I read the Bible I get a clear picture of how terrible it was, I realy do not need to see a movie with all the terrible things to see that.

If you really got a clear picture from reading the Bible and do not need to watch a movie to see it, then good for you. That would also mean that you ought to have absolutely no problem watching the movie and the violence that it shows since it is nothing new to you.

However, regardless of how clearly you have been able to picture the events leading up to the death of Jesus, you would probably still benefit from seeing the movie.

Are you are saying that you do not care to see the movie because you have read the book? It seems like that is the opposite of the typical reaction to movies based upon books. Usually the more that someone has read the book, the more likely that he is to want to see the movie. I thouroughly enjoyed reading the 4 books in Tolkien's trilogy and C.S. Lewis's Chronicles of Narnia; the excellent descriptive narratives each gave me a very clear picture of the events in the books, but yet I still want to see movies based upon those books. Even if the movies are not as good as the books, they are still very much worth seeing.

I think the problem today is that either you belive or you don't. Going to the cinema and watching this movie does not give you any more christians (only irritated Jews).

Whether or not the movie has converted anyone to Christianity, I do not know, but I do know that it has at least made some Christians more devout than they were before. It has also given many non-Christians a better understanding of the Christian faith.

BTW, the irritated Jews for the most part have not seen the movie either. It is foolish to be concerned about people who become irritated based upon their ignorance.

[Loomis]

To Loomis: (to save bandwidth)

Well if Jesus wouldnt have pulled thru all this none of us would have been randomed from sin or have a chance to be saved.

Sorry, I'll only quote this bit to save bandwidth too, but what exactly does "randomed from sin" mean? It sounds...painful.

If god is truly omnibenevolent (all-loving, infinate love), then why did he make a creation (man) knowing it would sin, dissapoint him, knowing that he'd have to destroy them, and start over again, wouldnt an omnibenevolent and omnipotent being be able to create a being so perfect that it could not sin, yet still have its free will It so much wants us to cherish?

And if god could create a man (jesus) who was perfect, and sin free, then why couldnt he create all men like jesus? If we are truly created in the image of god, why would he create beings that would torture and kill a man (jesus) who was perfect, and sin free, then why - couldnt he create all men like jesus?

Does god find pleasure in pain? A truly benevolent god wouldnt want its children to suffer. A truly benevolent god wouldn't stab you in the back to sell you bandages. Get you hooked on cigarettes to sell you nicotine. Its all the same. Create a being he knows will sin and dissapoint him, so he creates a place he knows he will have to punish them. He knew all this before he created the first human.

Yet this is what Gibson is peddling.

Meanwhile he applauds a horror movie that glorifies gore and violence. He proclaims that despite having virtually no plot that it is a life-affirming film with an urgent worthwhile message. Like many other Texas Chainsaw Massacre fans, Peter is probably inclined to cheer for Leatherface and eagerly anticipate the death and/or dismemberment of his next victim. Horror fans tend to watch the meat hook scene with a smile of pleasure on their faces and they immediately want to see it again.

Ok, perhaps you are right in that I should see the movie before I judge it too much. That is why I prefaced the argument with my statement to that effect.

However, I think the point the DVDFile guy (& I) were trying to make, was that horror is typically attacked for its violence and depravity (as you have done so in part here), but it does more to celebrate life than most think. The release and relief we get at the end of a horror movie reminds the survivor, and hopefully the audience, that it is good to be alive. The Passion of the Christ, he argues, is celebrating death.

Anyhoo, I think I've said what I'm going to say, because I am starting to repeat myself now. I might step out before this gets TOO ugly

[catNC]

If god is truly omnibenevolent (all-loving, infinate love), then why did he make a creation (man) knowing it would sin, dissapoint him, knowing that he'd have to destroy them, and start over again, wouldnt an omnibenevolent and omnipotent being be able to create a being so perfect that it could not sin, yet still have its free will It so much wants us to cherish?

And if god could create a man (jesus) who was perfect, and sin free, then why couldnt he create all men like jesus? If we are truly created in the image of god, why would he create beings that would torture and kill a man (jesus) who was perfect, and sin free, then why - couldnt he create all men like jesus?

Because God LOVES his creations. He loves us and wants to have a loving relationship with us. What is fulfilling about a relationship where you are forced to love and worship someone? By giving man a choice whether to love God or not, we can truly appreciate his benevolence, omnipotence, and most importantly his abounding love.

You also basically asked why God lets bad things happen to good people. Now, this could get into an even deeper theological discussion about predestination vs. total free will, but anyway, I'll do my best by sharing my own opinions and my own personal experiences.

The last several years, after high school and through college, I made some really bad choices. I grew up growing to church, and thought I would do absolutely fine in college on my own, and by my own I mean without really trying to do what God would want me to do. I ended up in an abusive relationship, got into drugs, and got myself in other bad situations I do not want to go into. I got to the point where I really felt I and the world would be better off without me. Getting to that point was the most terrifying thing I've ever experienced. I realized what I had turned my life into, and then I decided I didn't want to be like that anymore. All along I know my parents and friends from before were really concerned and praying for me. I asked God for help getting me out of the mess I had put myself in. Over the next year or so, I ended up getting a wonderful job I absolutely loved, and I ended up meeting the man I was going to marry. And I truly believe that had I not gone through what I had gone through, I wouldn't be where I am today. I think God let me make the decisions I did to really appreciate how wonderful life is and to experience His infinite love He has for me.

I didn't mean for this to become a testimonial, but it was the best way I could think to explain how I understand and have experienced God.

Hope this helps.

[karlsen]

But do you realy need to see it like this to understand what he went thru?

When I read the Bible I get a clear picture of how terrible it was, I realy do not need to see a movie with all the terrible things to see that.

If you really got a clear picture from reading the Bible and do not need to watch a movie to see it, then good for you. That would also mean that you ought to have absolutely no problem watching the movie and the violence that it shows since it is nothing new to you.

I know from reading the Bible what a sacrefice it must have been but I what I mean is that I have no need of seeing explicit violence on screen to understand it more. It is just like the pictures on TV from a war. They do not let you see the executions of sivil people because it is to much, and this is to me something in the same way.

But if this movie helps other to see what Jesus did, then it is a good movie.

Are you are saying that you do not care to see the movie because you have read the book? It seems like that is the opposite of the typical reaction to movies based upon books. Usually the more that someone has read the book, the more likely that he is to want to see the movie. I thouroughly enjoyed reading the 4 books in Tolkien's trilogy and C.S. Lewis's Chronicles of Narnia; the excellent descriptive narratives each gave me a very clear picture of the events in the books, but yet I still want to see movies based upon those books. Even if the movies are not as good as the books, they are still very much worth seeing.

I asume that you aknowledge the Bible as somehting more then a book. It can in no way be compared to LOTR and Narnia. The Bible tells the thruth about mankind, and gives us a message from God directly. All the other books are just fiction and books written by ordinary men (not God).

If god is truly omnibenevolent (all-loving, infinate love), then why did he make a creation (man) knowing it would sin, dissapoint him, knowing that he'd have to destroy them, and start over again, wouldnt an omnibenevolent and omnipotent being be able to create a being so perfect that it could not sin, yet still have its free will It so much wants us to cherish?

Loomis, you would not have your free will if you were not able to make the ultimate choice between good and bad.

And if god could create a man (jesus) who was perfect, and sin free, then why couldnt he create all men like jesus? If we are truly created in the image of god, why would he create beings that would torture and kill a man (jesus) who was perfect, and sin free, then why - couldnt he create all men like jesus?

Jesus is not a man like you and me and if you do belive that you have not understood the whole trinity thing at all. God and Jesus are the same, or like some likes to put it: Jesus is God's son. All this is just pictures too us so we could understand something that is devine and above our reach to realy understand. Man is just created in Gods image, Jesus is God's son. There is a large diffrence there.

[AwallaceUNC]

If this Great Crowd is supposed to go to heaven then why would someone pray or ask for God's Kingdom to come to earth as is in heaven if the two, the 144,000 and the great crowd are suppose to go to heaven? This verses would not make sense either. Mt 6:9,10; Re 21: 2-5. Do you believe in life after death? if so, then the Resurrection would not fit into this theory. Read Mt 24:21 and Mr 13:19 (Ref Rev 7: 9, 14) which speaks about the days of the great tribulation. if this days were cut short no flesh would be saved but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short. Here is talking about chosen ones flesh will survive and in account of them this days of tribulation will be cut short. Also Ps 72: 7,8 (reference Rev 7:16) talks about humans in the flesh been subjects on God from river to the ends of the earth after this system of things is destroyed and God takes over.

I think you're still misunderstanding me. I don't think they are going to Heaven. The 'great multitude' are people saved during the middle of tribulation. If they die before Jesus' reappearing, then yes, they go to heaven. Otherwise, they remain on earth.

-Aaron

[poco]

I haven't seen the movie yet, but am planning on it tomorrow afternoon.

Interesting theological discussions here. Trying to figure out where everyone is getting some of this stuff.

Where is this tribulation stuff people are talking about? because well, last time I checked the "tribuation series" fiction books are not the bible.

Rev. Poco

[umbreongirl]

My mom was going to get some tickets, but the whole city of Cheyenne is OUT! My mother really wanted to see this movie, too. Maybe we can go to Casper or Laramie and get some tickets. -_-;

[MickeyMouseboy]

First of all

To Loomis:

Redeemed (Sorry wrong word! lol ) means he bought us with his blood for God, so that we may repent and be saved thru him.

God created Adam and Eve sin free, they were perfect in every way but they decided to disregard God's will and so they sinned and became sinful and slow lost the perfection they once had.

To Aaron:

I get what you're saying now, sorry! still if people that died in the tribulation and are going to heaven then the ressurection of the dead to live in paradise earth would contradict with your theory.

To Karlsen:

Read De 6:4 ;Mal 2:10;Mr 10:18; Ro 3:29,30 all speak about God been one

Rev 3:14 says of Jesus "These are the things that the Amen says , the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God"

This verse says Jesus was the first creation that God created! not part of a trinity were all three are equal.

Col 1:15 says of Jesus "The firstborn of all creation"

Isa 44:6 God said "I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God"

Holy spirit is not a person but God's active force: Jn 20:22 says "Receive Holy Spirit" if this spirit was a person then it would have possessed all of this people. Rev 7:10 says " Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne and to the lamb". Here they name 2 of the supposed parts of the trinity, God and Jesus but the third person the holy spirit is no where to be found or seen.

Jesus was a man when he came to earth. He was a perfect man lower than the Angels as Hebrews 2:9 says " But we behold Jesus, who has been made a little lower than angels, crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death, that he by God's undeserved kindness might taste death for every [man]." Galatians 4:4 says "He was born from a woman". Jesus was lowered to a perfect human so that be may taste death and save every man from sin and after he was ressurected he was crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death.

If you want to talk about this feel free to contact me.

To Rev. Ms Poco Dearest:

The Great Tribulation was prophecied by Jesus Christ on Mount of Olives when he spoke of future events to his disciples as you might know. You can also find it in the Book of Revelations. both parts speak about a "great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world's beginning until now, no, nor will occur again" Mt 24:21. you can also read Rev 7:14 for more info. also feel free to contact me

[Loomis]

First of all

To Loomis:

Redeemed (Sorry wrong word! lol ) means he bought us with his blood for God, so that we may repent and be saved thru him.

God created Adam and Eve sin free, they were perfect in every way but they decided to disregard God's will and so they sinned and became sinful and slow lost the perfection they once had.

To save time and effort, I will just reply to all of you. So I'm not picking on MMB here, just that he was the last to address me and the issue.

So I was saying why does does the omni-benevolent god create creatures he KNOWS will sin. The answer was a resounding "free-will" argument. That doesn't gel with me though.

I mean, are you saying we have a god who likes to create conflict just so
we will love him more? Does this also mean that Jesus was without free will because he had no choice but to love god because he was one in the same? Jesus was a mechatron?

To take all your arguments one step further, if god can't create a person that cannot sin, AND have free will at the same time, then god can't do everything, and is not omnipotent.

See, it's not impossible to have a being with free will, but also without
sin --look at the christian concept of god for this. Is he without sin? Apparently so (despite the fact he's destroyed the world a few times, and liked to mutilate and torture his only begotten son, just to get rid of the sin he couldn't not create in the first place). He was still apparently all loving and perfect while doing this...

[Rebel]

I thouroughly enjoyed reading the 4 books in Tolkien's trilogy and C.S. Lewis's Chronicles of Narnia; the excellent descriptive narratives each gave me a very clear picture of the events in the books, but yet I still want to see movies based upon those books. Even if the movies are not as good as the books, they are still very much worth seeing.

I asume that you aknowledge the Bible as somehting more then a book. It can in no way be compared to LOTR and Narnia. The Bible tells the thruth about mankind, and gives us a message from God directly. All the other books are just fiction and books written by ordinary men (not God).

Perhaps "Saving Private Ryan" would have been a better example. It is a movie based upon a true story from World War II. Although almost everyone knows that war is horrific and they have heard about how thousands of men gave up their lives on D-Day. However, no matter how much they new beforehand, after seeing the movie "Saving Private Ryan" present the events of D-Day on film, viewers have a slightly different perspective and a much better understanding.

Likewise, viewing "The Passion of the Christ" provides more perspective and a much better understanding of the sacrifice made.