Yes, I can see how Cinderella is active in ways other than rebelling or running away. She does more in her situation than someone like Aurora, who just goes along with having to return to her castle (but you can also say she is being a good princess--so many ways to look at things!).
And as people have said, Belle is probably considered smart because not many people, let alone women, in her village were not likely to be well read. It looks like Gaston can't even read. Plus since she wasn't falling into the role of settling down/popping out 6 or 7 kids, the modern viewer associates her with the modern women of today, who can choose what they want to do with their lives.
Questions/Opinions about Belle & Cinderella
I know I said I was done with this discussion, since I know it will lead to nowhere. However, I'm too much of a thinking nerd to let this one aside and have to post one final thought regarding the Belle vs. Cindy topic.
Brace yourself, its a long one...
What I find really ironic about this topic is that people are quick to defend Cindy from the claims that she is a weak character and the stereotypical damsel in distress, but do so by belittling Belle and saying that she is the true weak character, and that her traits are not as special as people make them out to be.
Funny how it all works out, no?
In my opinion, its a rather unfair treatment and skews of pure fanboyism.
Here's how I honestly view Belle, and why some people (girls included) view her as a wonderful character:
When the movie starts, she is a common village woman leading a normal life. While she doesn't have a mother she does have a living father and instead of being a jerk, he's a nice, kind old man, if eccentric. Most importantly, she isn't born into royalty and her life isn't tragic by the time the movie starts. To some people, that's a nice change of pace and makes Belle a character you can relate to. Of course, all the Disney princesses share this quality, but to some it resonates stronger on Belle. Its what we like to call "personal preference".
Now, going back to the ever controversial "book fetish". Yes, the Disney princesses are not dumb and can read just fine. But why is Belle so special in this? Because it defines her character and her fascination of books and stories makes her a quirky, lovable female lead, in the same way that Cinderella making dresses for the mice and being patient with her family and Ariel collecting human trinkets make them special and unique among the princess club. Not to mention that reading is considered a nerdy activity. Girls see that and believe that a girl can be a princess and still be into the stuff people see as taboo. To some, that's a positive message and put Belle in a higher regard when compared to the other princesses. My best friend's girlfriend once told us that the reason she loved "Beauty and the Beast" as a girl was because to her Belle was a tomboy who lived in a normal town and was considered odd for being a bookworm. She loved the character because as a girl she loved to play videogames (and as an adult she is the manager of a videogame store) even though it was considered a boy's activity. Again, its what people perceive from the character.
I know I've beaten this to death but people if Belle was a bookworm SHE WAS INTERESTED IN OTHER BOOKS AND LITERARY GENRES. The reason she is seen reading fairy tales its because the creators wanted to create a bridge between Belle's life and the fairy tale she is about to embark on. It creates a little irony within the story.
"Oooh, its funny because she loved story books, and is now trapped within one!"
Its plot exposition and makes both the character and the story interesting.
But again, Belle was excited to see Beast's extensive library. There's a 100% chance that not all of them are fairy tales, and include tall tales, legends, religious beliefs, scientific discoveries and many other literary topics. So to me at least, Belle is the type of bookworm that reads anything she can get her hands on.
And once again, in the event that all she likes to read are fairy tales how does that make her a dumb character? Again, it creates a quirky charm in Belle and makes people, especially little girls and fairy tale fanatics, relate to her. If you don't like it fine.
And do I need to remind you that long before she was part of the royalty elite Disney used her to campaign storytelling and reading through a little show called "Sing me a story?". It was a fine show that while used old Disney shorts to reflect the episode's story or topic, they were basically well known stories, and by the end of the episode it gave parents and children book recommendations.
Of course, this isn't anything new and was basically the Disney version of "Reading Rainbow". But it was one of the first times that they used a major female lead to present the concept of reading and its one of the primary reasons some people see Belle as the "better princess".
Finally, one of the reasons Belle seems to be a hot target is because of the ever so controversial "love towards the Beast". For some people, Belle gained points for being a charming bookworm. Now having her befriend a beast, teaching him how to love again and admitting her love towards him just makes her a winner in the eyes of some. Again, each princess have their winning stories and attributes, it all depends on PERSONAL PREFERENCE.
Anyone remember the scene in which she discovers the rose in the west wing and Beast roars at her and she runs away? Then she is attacked by a pack of wolves in a terrible snow storm and Beast rescues her? I think people are forgetting the impact that scene has in the whole story and the development of both Belle and Beast's character.
Belle could have easily run away after the fight was done. After all, she was still scared and startled by both the event in the castle and the attack of the wolves. Yet, she was able to gain the courage to turn back, pick up Beast and return to the castle and heal his wounds, even though he still roared at her. She was there and thanked him for rescuing her.
Once again, in the eyes of many that is a wonderful scene that says a lot about Belle as a character. Beast saw the love and compassion in her heart and that's how Beast became human once more, because the foundations of humanity lie in the love, compassion and sympathy towards your fellow man.
I know the princesses have similar scenes like this (like when Ariel rescued Prince Eric and rank the risk of being discovered by humans), but yet again, to some this scene was special and makes Belle for THEM.
Yet, Belle is bashed to hell and back because she never kissed the prince while in beast form. Well, yeah, I confess that I too would have preferred the big, hairy beast marrying the beautiful woman, mainly because I too am a big, hairy and also nerdy guy that wishes to marry the beautiful woman, but that's besides the point.
From the start, we KNEW that the beast would turn into a prince. Its been that way since the beginning of time. Now if in the original story the beast stays the same but became human thanks to the dame's love, and Disney ruined it by changing it into the ending we all know and love today, then yeah I have to agree. But the original story ended with the beautiful woman saving the beast and marrying the beautiful prince.
Its a corny, charming, optimistic romantic fairy tale ending created to give people a happy feeling, especially after the whole death scene broke their hearts to a million pieces. Why try to ruin it by bringing modern cynicism and sarcasm?
So now, Belle gets crucified for her love of books and not sexually pleasing the beast till he became human again. Oy...Poor girl
.
Going back to the Cinders debate, this is really sad. When people say that Cindy and Aurora are typical damsels in distress that promote an unhealthy lifestyle the fans run with pitch forks and knives to defend their honor like true knights in shining armor. Yet, they are quick to dismiss Belle when people see her as the better character. Isn't this creating a double standard? That is sucks when someone bashes a preferred princess, but its annoying when people highlight another?
If I am not mistaken, the Disney Princesses were created to capitalize on the dreams of being a princess...
No, wait. Let me rephrase that...
The Disney Princesses were grouped together to represent the ideals of the Disney belief: Hope, faith, dreams, being yourself, love, patience, tolerance, beauty, perseverance (Aurora, that's YOUR lesson of the day XD), honesty and that magic is real.
Each Disney Princess represents that through their stories and specialties. Whether they are created upon the old foundations of fairy tale charm (Snow White) or the belief that women can be strong and make a difference in their lives (Mulan) the princesses are out to prove that ANY little girl, white or black, American or Hispanic, rich or poor, healthy or sick or normal or awkward can be a princess and be proud of it.
Now, the fanboys are slicing each other's throats over whose the better princess.
"My princess can beat YOUR princess!".
Of course, preference is expected. People will like Ariel over any of the other girls because they loved the movie and the character is an extension of their own beliefs. People prefer Aurora over the rest of the characters because she has a beautiful singing and speaking voice and the movie she is in is very beautiful and enchanting, so on and so forth. There's nothing wrong with that. Now, when they try to turn it into a popularity contest and try to destroy the preference of others, its in my honest opinion unfair and goes against what the Disney Princesses stand for.
So in short, Belle is a special character for some people, Cinderella is special for the rest. There's no need to belittle one in other to make the one better. Love your princess, let others love theirs.
...And besides, we ALL know who the real strong princess is.
That's right...ITS PRINCESS EILONWY!
Really, that girl deserves more respect and admiration!
Brace yourself, its a long one...
What I find really ironic about this topic is that people are quick to defend Cindy from the claims that she is a weak character and the stereotypical damsel in distress, but do so by belittling Belle and saying that she is the true weak character, and that her traits are not as special as people make them out to be.
Funny how it all works out, no?
In my opinion, its a rather unfair treatment and skews of pure fanboyism.
Here's how I honestly view Belle, and why some people (girls included) view her as a wonderful character:
When the movie starts, she is a common village woman leading a normal life. While she doesn't have a mother she does have a living father and instead of being a jerk, he's a nice, kind old man, if eccentric. Most importantly, she isn't born into royalty and her life isn't tragic by the time the movie starts. To some people, that's a nice change of pace and makes Belle a character you can relate to. Of course, all the Disney princesses share this quality, but to some it resonates stronger on Belle. Its what we like to call "personal preference".
Now, going back to the ever controversial "book fetish". Yes, the Disney princesses are not dumb and can read just fine. But why is Belle so special in this? Because it defines her character and her fascination of books and stories makes her a quirky, lovable female lead, in the same way that Cinderella making dresses for the mice and being patient with her family and Ariel collecting human trinkets make them special and unique among the princess club. Not to mention that reading is considered a nerdy activity. Girls see that and believe that a girl can be a princess and still be into the stuff people see as taboo. To some, that's a positive message and put Belle in a higher regard when compared to the other princesses. My best friend's girlfriend once told us that the reason she loved "Beauty and the Beast" as a girl was because to her Belle was a tomboy who lived in a normal town and was considered odd for being a bookworm. She loved the character because as a girl she loved to play videogames (and as an adult she is the manager of a videogame store) even though it was considered a boy's activity. Again, its what people perceive from the character.
I know I've beaten this to death but people if Belle was a bookworm SHE WAS INTERESTED IN OTHER BOOKS AND LITERARY GENRES. The reason she is seen reading fairy tales its because the creators wanted to create a bridge between Belle's life and the fairy tale she is about to embark on. It creates a little irony within the story.
"Oooh, its funny because she loved story books, and is now trapped within one!"
Its plot exposition and makes both the character and the story interesting.
But again, Belle was excited to see Beast's extensive library. There's a 100% chance that not all of them are fairy tales, and include tall tales, legends, religious beliefs, scientific discoveries and many other literary topics. So to me at least, Belle is the type of bookworm that reads anything she can get her hands on.
And once again, in the event that all she likes to read are fairy tales how does that make her a dumb character? Again, it creates a quirky charm in Belle and makes people, especially little girls and fairy tale fanatics, relate to her. If you don't like it fine.
And do I need to remind you that long before she was part of the royalty elite Disney used her to campaign storytelling and reading through a little show called "Sing me a story?". It was a fine show that while used old Disney shorts to reflect the episode's story or topic, they were basically well known stories, and by the end of the episode it gave parents and children book recommendations.
Of course, this isn't anything new and was basically the Disney version of "Reading Rainbow". But it was one of the first times that they used a major female lead to present the concept of reading and its one of the primary reasons some people see Belle as the "better princess".
Finally, one of the reasons Belle seems to be a hot target is because of the ever so controversial "love towards the Beast". For some people, Belle gained points for being a charming bookworm. Now having her befriend a beast, teaching him how to love again and admitting her love towards him just makes her a winner in the eyes of some. Again, each princess have their winning stories and attributes, it all depends on PERSONAL PREFERENCE.
Anyone remember the scene in which she discovers the rose in the west wing and Beast roars at her and she runs away? Then she is attacked by a pack of wolves in a terrible snow storm and Beast rescues her? I think people are forgetting the impact that scene has in the whole story and the development of both Belle and Beast's character.
Belle could have easily run away after the fight was done. After all, she was still scared and startled by both the event in the castle and the attack of the wolves. Yet, she was able to gain the courage to turn back, pick up Beast and return to the castle and heal his wounds, even though he still roared at her. She was there and thanked him for rescuing her.
Once again, in the eyes of many that is a wonderful scene that says a lot about Belle as a character. Beast saw the love and compassion in her heart and that's how Beast became human once more, because the foundations of humanity lie in the love, compassion and sympathy towards your fellow man.
I know the princesses have similar scenes like this (like when Ariel rescued Prince Eric and rank the risk of being discovered by humans), but yet again, to some this scene was special and makes Belle for THEM.
Yet, Belle is bashed to hell and back because she never kissed the prince while in beast form. Well, yeah, I confess that I too would have preferred the big, hairy beast marrying the beautiful woman, mainly because I too am a big, hairy and also nerdy guy that wishes to marry the beautiful woman, but that's besides the point.
From the start, we KNEW that the beast would turn into a prince. Its been that way since the beginning of time. Now if in the original story the beast stays the same but became human thanks to the dame's love, and Disney ruined it by changing it into the ending we all know and love today, then yeah I have to agree. But the original story ended with the beautiful woman saving the beast and marrying the beautiful prince.
Its a corny, charming, optimistic romantic fairy tale ending created to give people a happy feeling, especially after the whole death scene broke their hearts to a million pieces. Why try to ruin it by bringing modern cynicism and sarcasm?
So now, Belle gets crucified for her love of books and not sexually pleasing the beast till he became human again. Oy...Poor girl
.Going back to the Cinders debate, this is really sad. When people say that Cindy and Aurora are typical damsels in distress that promote an unhealthy lifestyle the fans run with pitch forks and knives to defend their honor like true knights in shining armor. Yet, they are quick to dismiss Belle when people see her as the better character. Isn't this creating a double standard? That is sucks when someone bashes a preferred princess, but its annoying when people highlight another?
If I am not mistaken, the Disney Princesses were created to capitalize on the dreams of being a princess...
No, wait. Let me rephrase that...
The Disney Princesses were grouped together to represent the ideals of the Disney belief: Hope, faith, dreams, being yourself, love, patience, tolerance, beauty, perseverance (Aurora, that's YOUR lesson of the day XD), honesty and that magic is real.
Each Disney Princess represents that through their stories and specialties. Whether they are created upon the old foundations of fairy tale charm (Snow White) or the belief that women can be strong and make a difference in their lives (Mulan) the princesses are out to prove that ANY little girl, white or black, American or Hispanic, rich or poor, healthy or sick or normal or awkward can be a princess and be proud of it.
Now, the fanboys are slicing each other's throats over whose the better princess.
"My princess can beat YOUR princess!".
Of course, preference is expected. People will like Ariel over any of the other girls because they loved the movie and the character is an extension of their own beliefs. People prefer Aurora over the rest of the characters because she has a beautiful singing and speaking voice and the movie she is in is very beautiful and enchanting, so on and so forth. There's nothing wrong with that. Now, when they try to turn it into a popularity contest and try to destroy the preference of others, its in my honest opinion unfair and goes against what the Disney Princesses stand for.
So in short, Belle is a special character for some people, Cinderella is special for the rest. There's no need to belittle one in other to make the one better. Love your princess, let others love theirs.
...And besides, we ALL know who the real strong princess is.
That's right...ITS PRINCESS EILONWY!
Really, that girl deserves more respect and admiration!
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Princess Forever
- Limited Issue
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Princess Forever
- Limited Issue
- Posts: 62
- Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:42 pm
Not to mention that fangirls are more likely to discuss the Disney Princes more than the Princesses.Princess Forever wrote:*lol* I can almost imagine guys arguing the finer points of the Princesses IRL!
Lord knows, right now some fans are saying that Prince Charming was a better character than Philip, even though Philip fought his butt off to save Aurora.
Quoting Ursula...so sad, so true
.
Everyone, than you so much for your replies! I truly appreciate every one of them.
Now, please please please, I promise, I wasn't belittling or bashing Belle or favoring Cindy over her. This is what I was trying to avoid. I'm sorry if it came out that way. ALL the princesses are great in their own special way. Of course we have our favorites, but they are all wonderful!!!!
I was just stating what I've observed. Yes, I've heard people say that they like Belle ONLY because of the color of her hair (which I think is pretty dumb in my opinion) and that she reads. I love that she reads, and she's known for her intelligence. I applaud the writers and creators for stating this character trait very clearly. In fact, I'm a lot like her because I read everything, even if it's the nutritional contents on cereal boxes (just for fun of course). I was just asking because Belle has other special qualities, aside from the two aforementioned ones about her, and I don't see why others wouldn't mention those other qualities when they say they love her.
As for Cinderella, I have heard people say they don't like her because just because they think she just sits there and wish to be rescued, and my point was to clarify that there's more to her character than what is shown on screen.
Again, sorry if I sounded like I was making Belle look bad or favoring Cindy, but they are both pretty amazing people and we should love them both!
Now, please please please, I promise, I wasn't belittling or bashing Belle or favoring Cindy over her. This is what I was trying to avoid. I'm sorry if it came out that way. ALL the princesses are great in their own special way. Of course we have our favorites, but they are all wonderful!!!!
I was just stating what I've observed. Yes, I've heard people say that they like Belle ONLY because of the color of her hair (which I think is pretty dumb in my opinion) and that she reads. I love that she reads, and she's known for her intelligence. I applaud the writers and creators for stating this character trait very clearly. In fact, I'm a lot like her because I read everything, even if it's the nutritional contents on cereal boxes (just for fun of course). I was just asking because Belle has other special qualities, aside from the two aforementioned ones about her, and I don't see why others wouldn't mention those other qualities when they say they love her.
As for Cinderella, I have heard people say they don't like her because just because they think she just sits there and wish to be rescued, and my point was to clarify that there's more to her character than what is shown on screen.
Again, sorry if I sounded like I was making Belle look bad or favoring Cindy, but they are both pretty amazing people and we should love them both!
Hence why I said that people should love their princesses and let others love their own, and that trying to argue which one is better is going against the point of the Princess franchise.tsom wrote:Now, please please please, I promise, I wasn't belittling or bashing Belle or favoring Cindy over her. This is what I was trying to avoid. I'm sorry if it came out that way. ALL the princesses are great in their own special way. Of course we have our favorites, but they are all wonderful!!!!
I hope you don't mind that I took over the thread in the last thread. Truth to be told, BaTB is one of my all time favorites alongside the Disney classics and the fab four of the 90s, and believe that each princess has a trait that makes then popular among fan, and that trying to debate which one is THE best is turning the franchise into one big popularity contest.
I recommend this read if you haven't see it already:
http://www.retrojunk.com/details_articles/2006/
The writer, through the eyes of the princes, does a great job of explaining why each princess is special.
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Disney Duster
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Cinderella vs. Belle
Disney's Divinity, I could not read everything in my library, but still ask "have you got anything new?" to know if there's, say, some new fairy tales that are, well, new. It doesn't mean I've read every book in the library. I agree, King Arthur would have the things she mentioned, but Jack and the Beanstalk, and very probably Cinderella, are the kinds of tales she really likes. Not that I think King Arthur will make her much smarter anyway.
You and Princess Forever talked about how she didn't conform, settle down, domesticate, marry, or pop out kids. UM she conformed to what all the other princesses turned out to be, settled down and married a charmingly handsome prince, and she will have to pop out kids to make heirs to the throne. She will be extremely pressured to, now that she's a married princess.
Now onto pap64
So, Belle's a really relatable character. Yes, but her life is bad enough for her to want to change it. I've heard many people say time and again that one positive thing about Cinderella is she's relatable. At first I thought the movie would be stronger if she had a really horrible life and then a happy one, but by making her like the less loved daughter doing all the chores her situation is more complicated and relatable.
But as you said, all the princesses share this quality.
And that's a big problem. Disney has to dumb down a whole village, kind of representing the average world, to make Belle look smarter?
Yes, the fairy tale irony of the story is cool, but if they wanted Belle to be smart, they should have thought about actually showing it. I'm certainly fine with Belle wanting to be like a princess in her tales and getting to be one. Just not that there's anything more than that.
Belle may not be a bookworm, but a fairy tale worm. I certainly am.
You brought up a TV show, something outside the movie, that came after the movie. Doesn't count when talking about the movie's character.
Yea, as for her going back to the Beast, aside from the implications of a girl who can't get away from an abusive partner, she saved him. That just won her over. How many times has a girl loved someone because they saved her and he's "her hero"? Duh, of course it says he's kind and capable of love.
I'm glad you see Belle should have given the Beast more love than just friend love. The dance could have just been like going to prom with your best friend, or cousin. And her marrying the Beast in the form she fell in love with is not cynical or sarcastic at all! IT'S BEAUTIFUL!
Okay, I know, the filmakers intended Belle to love the Beast romantically. But she didn't show it enough. And when Escapay, who loves the film, thinks they started out as friends and then they just realized towards the ending that they loved each other as more...
As for the rest, originally I just wanted to show Cinderella could contend with Belle and the other more modern, "better" princesses, but now, yes, I love playing to have her win among who is the best princess. It is a passion.
I don't care what the Disney Princess franchise intends. Do you think Walt Disney would approve of the franchise? Roy Disney didn't.
And to tsom, it's cool you read so much.
You and Princess Forever talked about how she didn't conform, settle down, domesticate, marry, or pop out kids. UM she conformed to what all the other princesses turned out to be, settled down and married a charmingly handsome prince, and she will have to pop out kids to make heirs to the throne. She will be extremely pressured to, now that she's a married princess.
Now onto pap64
No, it's not funny. I guess you didn't notice, but tsom and I wrote about both Belle's and Cindy's strengths and weaknesses. The post at the top of this page is in answer to me pointing out Cinderella's strengths. Non of us were belittling Belle but pointing out why claims of her being smart, etc. were unfounded. We were saying all princesses have falws and weaknesses.pap64 wrote:What I find really ironic is that people are quick to defend Cindy from the claims that she is a weak character and the streotypical damsel in distress, but do so by belittling Belle and saying she is the true weak character, and that her traits are not as special as people make them out to be.
Funny how it all works out, no?
So, Belle's a really relatable character. Yes, but her life is bad enough for her to want to change it. I've heard many people say time and again that one positive thing about Cinderella is she's relatable. At first I thought the movie would be stronger if she had a really horrible life and then a happy one, but by making her like the less loved daughter doing all the chores her situation is more complicated and relatable.
But as you said, all the princesses share this quality.
Actually we don't know if they can read, it's just a big probably.pap64 wrote:Yes, the Disney princesses are not dumb and can read just fine.
Why would girls want to be a princess if they want to do un-princess things?pap64 wrote:Girls see that and believe a girl can be a princess and still be into the stuff people see as taboo.
I didn't know thinking of the character as something they're not counted. Belle's no tomboy. If so, I don't know why her happyness came in the form of putting on poofy hard-to-move in dresses and marry a prince. Does this girl like wearing poofy princess dresses? And like you said, even Gaston couldn't read. No boys read.pap64 wrote:My best friend's girlfriend once told us that the reason she loved "Beauty and the Beast" as a girl was because to her Belle was a tomboy who lived in a normal town and was considered odd for being a bookworm. She loved the character because as a girl she loved video games (and as an adult she is the manager of a video game store) even though it was considered a boy's activity. Again, it's what people perceive from the character.
And that's a big problem. Disney has to dumb down a whole village, kind of representing the average world, to make Belle look smarter?
Yes, the fairy tale irony of the story is cool, but if they wanted Belle to be smart, they should have thought about actually showing it. I'm certainly fine with Belle wanting to be like a princess in her tales and getting to be one. Just not that there's anything more than that.
Belle may not be a bookworm, but a fairy tale worm. I certainly am.
It doesn't, and I never said it did. Just that it doesn't make her smarter than the other princesses like everyone says she is.pap64 wrote:And again, in the event that all she likes to read are fairy tales how does that make her a dumb character?
You brought up a TV show, something outside the movie, that came after the movie. Doesn't count when talking about the movie's character.
Yea, as for her going back to the Beast, aside from the implications of a girl who can't get away from an abusive partner, she saved him. That just won her over. How many times has a girl loved someone because they saved her and he's "her hero"? Duh, of course it says he's kind and capable of love.
I'm glad you see Belle should have given the Beast more love than just friend love. The dance could have just been like going to prom with your best friend, or cousin. And her marrying the Beast in the form she fell in love with is not cynical or sarcastic at all! IT'S BEAUTIFUL!
Okay, I know, the filmakers intended Belle to love the Beast romantically. But she didn't show it enough. And when Escapay, who loves the film, thinks they started out as friends and then they just realized towards the ending that they loved each other as more...
As for the rest, originally I just wanted to show Cinderella could contend with Belle and the other more modern, "better" princesses, but now, yes, I love playing to have her win among who is the best princess. It is a passion.
I don't care what the Disney Princess franchise intends. Do you think Walt Disney would approve of the franchise? Roy Disney didn't.
And to tsom, it's cool you read so much.
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Disney's Divinity
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Re: Cinderella vs. Belle
But, really, there's no point in arguing this, as there's no proof either way. So you can believe that Belle is a simpleton who only reads fairy tales and I can believe that she's a grown woman who only happens to enjoy fairy tales most [along with many other books].Disney Duster wrote:Disney's Divinity, I could not read everything in my library, but still ask "have you got anything new?" to know if there's, say, some new fairy tales that are, well, new. It doesn't mean I've read every book in the library. I agree, King Arthur would have the things she mentioned, but Jack and the Beanstalk, and very probably Cinderella, are the kinds of tales she really likes. Not that I think King Arthur will make her much smarter anyway.
The point is that she didn't settle for less. Marriage does not equal conformity. Conformity is sacrificing your dreams/standards/beliefs/etc. for something less because others make you feel you should. Belle didn't think Gaston was for her and didn't marry him even though the entire village made her feel ashamed for not doing so ("What's wrong with her?" "She's crazy!"). And I refuse to believe that Belle would simply resign herself to being a housewife-princess. Perhaps you can delude yourself into thinking this character could be that way, but I'm not that determined to dislike her. Also, you can't take everything simply by what's shown. With fairy tales, most things are implied and to criticize them for not showing what you want is ignoring that fact. Just because the movie stops when she marries, doesn't mean her life has ended and that she immediately starts to bear children.You and Princess Forever talked about how she didn't conform, settle down, domesticate, marry, or pop out kids. UM she conformed to what all the other princesses turned out to be, settled down and married a charmingly handsome prince, and she will have to pop out kids to make heirs to the throne. She will be extremely pressured to, now that she's a married princess.
I agree with pap64 in that this is easily my least favorite part of forums. People make everything feel somewhat like a competition. As if you can't just like both, you have to pick one side. Sure, I like Ariel most, but I'm not going to hate, scrutinize and criticize everything about every other character in order to make her seem better. Because, in the end, you can't change someone else's opinion and it's arrogant/wasteful to try.
Listening to most often lately:
Taylor Swift ~ "Elizabeth Taylor"
Katy Perry ~ "bandaid"
Meghan Trainor ~ "Still Don't Care"
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Merryweather__
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- Location: Oregon
I think Belle is smart because she took time to get to know beast, even though she was shocked by his appearance at first (she was also frustrated that he had taken her as a prisoner basically, would you want to have dinner right away with someone who did that?) she didn't let it get in the way of eventually becoming beast's friend.
She also stood up to the villagers which shows she isn't a blind follower, to me that is pretty smart.
Cinderella had her self esteem broken constantly , that can weaken any person's spirit. Though I, personally, don't see her as a weak character.
She also stood up to the villagers which shows she isn't a blind follower, to me that is pretty smart.
Cinderella had her self esteem broken constantly , that can weaken any person's spirit. Though I, personally, don't see her as a weak character.
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Ariel'sprince
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Damsel in distress? she fought for what she believes,used her brain and everything she could and lived happily ever after like she always wanted,she isn't a damsel and is any other Princess.pap64 wrote:What I find really ironic about this topic is that people are quick to defend Cindy from the claims that she is a weak character and the stereotypical damsel in distress
Oh,and Eilonwy can't beat any Princess,and it doesn't matter that she's nice.
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Chernabog_Rocks
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Have to address this, it doesn't matter that she's nice? All the other princesses are "nice" why does it get to count for them and not Eilonwy? I think that sentence is not well thought out at allAriel'sprince wrote: Damsel in distress? she fought for what she believes,used her brain and everything she could and lived happily ever after like she always wanted,she isn't a damsel and is any other Princess.
Oh,and Eilonwy can't beat any Princess,and it doesn't matter that she's nice.
I don't understand the hate towards Eilonwy at all, and please try saying something aside from "her movie was a flop/sucked" type excuses. I find her to be a refreshing break from the girly princesses, she may not go off looking for love or waiting for it, she may not wear poofy dresses or act like a princess but she still is one and deserves some respect.
Getting off my soapbox now. Ariels Prince, don't reply to my post I don't have the patience at the moment to have a debate about this with you without resorting to me getting nasty it's been one of those weeks and it's not getting better.
Now then onto the topic at hand, just because Belle only reads Fairy Tales that doesn't "dumb" her down at all it shows she has an interest in a certain genre. My best friend spends the majority of her time reading Romance novels would that make her some sort of damsel who's waiting for love to come find her? No (bad example yes but bear with me) it means she likes a certain type of book.
In Cinderellas case, whatever doesn't kill you only makes you stronger. Through all those chores, (assumed) verbal abuse, dress ripping, locked in the tower..ness she still bounced back and ended with her Prince. So like I said if it doesn't kill you it just makes you stronger, not very weak at all in my opinion.
I don't think Belle's village was dumbed down to make her look smarter. I think that they acted the way they did because it was the mindset in whatever age/time they were in. It's obviously in a time where women didn't really seem to have rights and were ignored when it came to opinions, look at what Gaston said to her in the beginning about getting ideas and thinking and how it's not right. So like I said, not really dumbed down, just a different mindset than what ours is so of course they'll seem dumbed down to us in a way.
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Ariel'sprince
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Disney Duster
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Re: Cinderella vs. Belle
Yes, I think that too about fairy tales and Disney movies. Glad I'm not the only one. However, when people just take things at face value or all they see for other characters, I was doing roughly the same for Belle to make it fair. And I don't think she's a simpleton.Disney's Divinity wrote:Also, you can't take everything simply by what's shown. With fairy tales, most things are implied and to criticize them for not showing what you want is ignoring that fact. Just because the movie stops when she marries, doesn't mean her life has ended and that she immediately starts to bear children.
Merryweather, she was the Beast's prisoner, that's a big reason why she took time to know him. She was to be kept in his castle for however long he wished. Yes, she could have left him when he was hurt in the snow, but to heal his wounds could have been due to her kindess, not letting an animal, you know, die, and keeping her promise to take her father's place. "You have my word", she said. Then he needed to tell her she was free when she wanted to go see her Papa.
As for standing up to the villagers, all the princesses stand up to people at some point. Maybe Snow White asking the dwarfs to let her stay isn't that, but Cinderella telling her stepfamily she can go to the ball is, and then there's Ariel stands up to everyone who opposes her, pretty much. So to say Belle is smarter than all them when they all did what she did makes no sense.
Eilonwy's awesome. Love isn't required to be a princess. Sure, they're pressured to, but there've been single princesses and queens in history, I believe. Though she found love in Taran anyway.
Chernabog, I didn't say fairy tales dumb Belle down, just that it doesn't make her smarter than the other princesses like many claim.
However, I think Belle's village was very dumb is none of them read at all. I guess maybe it could have been an illiterate town but...in 18th century France I find it hard to believe. And it's certainly not representative of the real world, which, in this day and age, they try to do even in movies set in the past. They try to make things relevant to today's time. One smart reading girl in a dumb illiterate town isn't very relevant at all. They tried to make Belle "modern" and representative of today's women, but not her village?
Anyway, this especially goes to pap64 but to Disney's Divinity, Chernabog, and everyone, really.
I have a very, very smart friend. She started going to college when she should have been a Junior in high school. She also read a lot, actually. But then she's my friend, and I read fairy tales and children's books a lot, or I used to, on occasion now, and basically, she wouldn't think reading fairy tales makes you much smarter than many other people. I guess I should ask her if she read fairy tales and if she thinks they could make you smart. One day maybe we'll talk about Belle. She certainly liked my "grown up", more (arguably?) "food for thought" or thinking-involved fairy tales "The Coachman Rat", "Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister", and "Wicked". Those were pretty much novels, and strangely Belle's "Cinderella" book, if it is so, looks like a novel. I hope it's not Cinderella. She also once said, "Originally, Cinderella was about..." I forget the rest, but it was when we were arguing about Cinderella's weak, domestic character as seen today, so maybe she looked at fairy tales as something smart. Maybe it's just that she Disney thinks isn't smart, because it's too childish or whatever.
BUT I realize a lot of us here probably read fairy tales and maybe some children's books, I mean, this is a Disney forum. Yes, Disney movies are meant for every age, I know. But anyway, pap64 said he was a thinking nerd, and I guess all of us in here are to some degree, and I guess if we think this much about things, it's smart. Now, we could think about things everyone thinks are dumb like...Disaster Movie or Meet the Spartans, but maybe because we're thinking, it's still smart. So, as people say there are different ways of being smart, or maybe it's that we're all smart in the same way but we're all smart about different things because we like and like to think about different things, whatever, we're smart.
At first I thought it was stupid to say Belle was smarter than any of the other princesses because, well, the only difference is she reads princess stories and longs to become a princess, and then does. But I guess if you are reading a princess story, you can observe it, and think about it...more...than if it just happened to you, if you lived the story? The idea is that if you read, you think, but Belle doesn't really talk like any of us in here have, does she?
Also, it's really terrible if Belle really is indeed the only smart Disney princess, or the only one who can read. Honestly. How could any of the princesses compete with that?
So...those are just some thoughts.
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Chernabog_Rocks
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We don't know that for certain. Look at the Bookeeper, surely he reads or else why bother having a book store? Or why bother having a bookstore if only villager reads? He'd be out of buisness but he seems to be doing well if hasn't gone broke yet.However, I think Belle's village was very dumb is none of them read at all
I think some of the villagers or maybe all (aside from Gaston) read just not to the "obsessive" extent that Belle does, they say she's always got her nose stuck in a book so perhaps to them it's abnormal to be reading all day. Since a lot of them do work, the bakers job probably keeps him constantly busy, the smithy, tavern owner etc. So maybe some of them don't have the time to read, Belle doesn't have to work from what we see, take care of household chores most likely but that's not the same as having to do the same amount of work a baker would have to do or anyone else I mentioned above.
I still don't think the villagers are dumb, just a product of the time and mindset the movie takes place in, you wouldn't have 1920's characters acting like it's 2008 or vice versa.
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Disney Duster
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Cinderella vs. Belle
Disney Divinity, I forgot, I looked up definitions in my dictionary and online, conforming means just to become like the others, they even used the word harmony. But I got what you meant about Belle not settling for less. Hm, who knows how her royal marriage might prevent her from doing what she wants. But that goes for all the princesses. So, we can believe their characters didn't let that happen.
Okay, maybe some of them read, but I was saying it looks like none of them don't to make Belle look smarter.
Okay, maybe some of them read, but I was saying it looks like none of them don't to make Belle look smarter.
But I explained that Belle is a modern woman, she was meant to be like a modern 90's feminist woman (and it didn't work, she wasn't), but if they can only do that by making the village seem ignorant and dumber than average, not like modern average people, that's a mis-match of making one character modern and the rest not. Like I said, in 18th century France it's doubtful only one girl would read fairy tales in an entire village. I guess you're right, it's just that she was reading all the time.Chernabog_Rocks wrote:I still don't think the villagers are dumb, just a product of the time and mindset the movie takes place in, you wouldn't have 1920's characters acting like it's 2008 or vice versa.
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Disney Duster
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Belle vs. Cinderella
Me again, but this time you might like it.
So pap64 I recently read that originally a whole bunch of women in the mid-1600's started meeting secretly in their parlors and, at a time when women weren't supposed to read or write, self-taught themselves, and wrote stories, often using already known stories from the past. So they seemed to start fairy tales as we know them today, the French versions (which came before the Grimm's!), but Giambattista Basile also could be credited with first making fairy tales in Italy in 1634. But these fairy tales were for adults, written by women to be read by women and men like them, but they were not the stories like Cinderella or Sleeping Beauty that Perrault published...and I think that includes Jack and the Beanstalk, which Belle was just finished reading at beginning of the film. But the stories written by the women are not well-known today at all.
I am quite sure I read that Beauty and the Beast is actually set in 18th century France, which I guess would mean the 1700's, which would be okay, because Perrault published his book just when the 1600's were ending and the 1700's beginning. By the way, the original Beauty and the Beast was written in 1740 by Madame de Villeneuve, it was really long, for a fairy tale, and the Beast asked Belle to sleep with him, but Madame Leprince de Beaumont rewrote it for young women (in "Young Misses Magazine" where a governess tells tales to girls 5 through 13, though I think the story would be way more relatable and understandable for high school age girls) where it was shorter and cleaner and more moral and he just asks her to marry him, and that's the version well-known today and what the Disney version is based on.
But the tales Belle read in the Disney film could have still been for adults. But even if something is for adults, it doesn't mean it is smart. It just bothers me that the only thing that seems to distinguish Belle as smart is that she can read. The evil stepmothers of the Disney's earlier features could. The three good fairies could read the sewing and cook books. It's just the whole "Belle is the smart one of the Disny Princesses" that's rather hurtful as well as annoying, especially when it seems the only indication she is because she reads and it's odd to taboo for her to do so in this film.
So pap64 I recently read that originally a whole bunch of women in the mid-1600's started meeting secretly in their parlors and, at a time when women weren't supposed to read or write, self-taught themselves, and wrote stories, often using already known stories from the past. So they seemed to start fairy tales as we know them today, the French versions (which came before the Grimm's!), but Giambattista Basile also could be credited with first making fairy tales in Italy in 1634. But these fairy tales were for adults, written by women to be read by women and men like them, but they were not the stories like Cinderella or Sleeping Beauty that Perrault published...and I think that includes Jack and the Beanstalk, which Belle was just finished reading at beginning of the film. But the stories written by the women are not well-known today at all.
I am quite sure I read that Beauty and the Beast is actually set in 18th century France, which I guess would mean the 1700's, which would be okay, because Perrault published his book just when the 1600's were ending and the 1700's beginning. By the way, the original Beauty and the Beast was written in 1740 by Madame de Villeneuve, it was really long, for a fairy tale, and the Beast asked Belle to sleep with him, but Madame Leprince de Beaumont rewrote it for young women (in "Young Misses Magazine" where a governess tells tales to girls 5 through 13, though I think the story would be way more relatable and understandable for high school age girls) where it was shorter and cleaner and more moral and he just asks her to marry him, and that's the version well-known today and what the Disney version is based on.
But the tales Belle read in the Disney film could have still been for adults. But even if something is for adults, it doesn't mean it is smart. It just bothers me that the only thing that seems to distinguish Belle as smart is that she can read. The evil stepmothers of the Disney's earlier features could. The three good fairies could read the sewing and cook books. It's just the whole "Belle is the smart one of the Disny Princesses" that's rather hurtful as well as annoying, especially when it seems the only indication she is because she reads and it's odd to taboo for her to do so in this film.
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schoollover
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you know I don't know why people think cinderella is dumb. She was smart enough to make the mice make her a dress, and very smart in cinderella 3.
Here's the princesses who I think are dumb or annoying.
snow White- I can not stand that voice and she is kind of dumb
aurora- I love her but she's like just a little bit stupid.
Ariel- If she's so smart why didn't she just use her father's trident to turn herself human.
Smart girls.
Belle, Cinderella, Jasmine, Mulan, Pocahontas, Eilwoney, and Kida.
Here's the princesses who I think are dumb or annoying.
snow White- I can not stand that voice and she is kind of dumb
aurora- I love her but she's like just a little bit stupid.
Ariel- If she's so smart why didn't she just use her father's trident to turn herself human.
Smart girls.
Belle, Cinderella, Jasmine, Mulan, Pocahontas, Eilwoney, and Kida.
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Flanger-Hanger
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Snow White is not dumb or stupid, merely a woman audiences of the 30s expected to see. She's no less pathetic than any of Fray Way's (spelling right?) characters.
All the princesses reflect the time of the film they were made in (Aurora's the one exception but we don't see much of her anyway, how is she dumb?). Oh, and Belle's feminism is laughable, she spends more time reading so she's smarter than the lot of supposedly moronic villages she lives with?
All the princesses reflect the time of the film they were made in (Aurora's the one exception but we don't see much of her anyway, how is she dumb?). Oh, and Belle's feminism is laughable, she spends more time reading so she's smarter than the lot of supposedly moronic villages she lives with?
