People Calling Disney Films Racist!?

[2099net]

I really can't think of why Sebastian is racist though. Is it because he has a black voice and sings calypso? Does anyone honestly think a white man could've done that and noone would've thought it was just strange (or perhaps more racist because they chose a white man over a black man to do the voice)? Or maybe it's stereotypical of how black slaves had to care for the white farmer's daughter? I have no idea.

Well, I think the two possible reasons for Sebastian being seen by some as racist are:

As you mentioned, it's a black character serving a white master. Singing Calypso is hardly essential to the plot, so why is it there?

If the setting of Atlantica is the Caribbean (?) why is Neptune white, and his primary subject black? Of course, there's nothing wrong with Neptune being white - he is a god from Roman mythology. Presumably Roman gods are based near the European coast, possibly the Middle East or even North Africa. The Caribbean is way removed from any Roman field of influence. But then you have to question where does Sebastian come in? Are we shown other non-Caucasian influences? Was he created specifically to liven up the music and fun of the film with Calypso? Or to be seen to serve and treble in fear before Neptune?

Secondly, the character has large, over emphasised lip[s]. This is not a triat of lobsters, so we have to assume he was drawn that way to illustrate his ethnicity. You know, its not that removed from various "blackface" gags in the 30s and 40s.

[blackcauldron85]

We know that Disney sometimes makes the characters somewhat resemble their voice actors, so maybe the big lips was like an homage to Sam Wright?

Ashman & Menken wanted to add a Calypso flair to their songs- so sue them! They had that right, and I agree with Disney's Divinity- what's wrong with having a black man voice Sebastian? Seriously.

If Disney didn't have any ethnic characters, then people would complain. When Disney does have some ethnic characters, people complain. Disney can't win either way.

[PeterPanfan]

It's just those select people who always try to find fault with something. They are the ones who cause racism. They can never just be happy with something, they always have to thoroughly examine, or just overthink things.

It really frustrates me to no end.

[drfsupercenter]

Yeah, I know what you mean... and it annoys the crap out of me too.

How is Arabian Nights racist? If you keep in mind that the movie takes place hundreds if not thousands of years ago, it's really not bad considering the barbarian tribes and stuff of that time...

This sorta crap also happened with Jynx from Pokémon...
It sorta resembles a human, and some African American sued Nintendo claiming Jynx was a "racist stereotype and gave blacks a bad name" (since it has oversized breasts and lips, I guess she thought it was saying black people were whores)

Here's a picture of Jynx:
http://guidesmedia.ign.com/guides/9846/images/jynx.gif

Now seriously. How many blacks do you know that have long blonde hair? Um, NONE? Someone explain LOGICALLY how that can be a racist figure. It ISN'T. Of course, Nintendo had to give in and make it purple... and banned it from TV episodes. (new image here: http://www.x-entertainment.com/updates/ ... 2/jynx.jpg )

I just think saying that pop culture is racist is a load of BS... Listen to songs by 2pac or someone, they're just as bad only since he was black it doesn't count. See how rediculous that is? Everyone can make fun of Americans all they want (and heck, I do it too) but if you make fun of another race, WATCH OUT. WTF is wrong with today's world?

[gregmasciola]

One other claim I read was about The Lion King, saying that it's racist against blacks because the hyenas sound like black people, so they're saying that it sends a message that black people are evil. This one I have to admit was ridiculous.
First, one of the hyenas sounds black because the voice is done by Whoopi Goldberg, who IS black! Another is done by a guy named Cheech Marin, who is white, and the voice doesn't sound at all like a black person.
Also, the voice of Mufasa is done by James Earl Jones (black), young Nala is done by a young black girl, a young black boy did Simba's singing voice, so obviously this movie is NOT sending the message that black people are bad.

In response to some of the comments about Sebastian, just because the person doing the voice was black does not mean that he's supposed to be thought of as a black character (in the movie, he's red ).

I just think it's wierd when people complain saying a character is racist when they are the good guys. It makes me think of what Jerry said in an episode of Seinfeld: "If I like their race, how is that racist?"

[Escapay]

Another is done by a guy named Cheech Marin, who is white, and the voice doesn't sound at all like a black person.

Cheech Marin is Mexican American, and IIRC, the main criticism was that all the "good" characters spoke in refined (Mufasa) and snobby (Zazu) tones, while the bad characters spoke as if they had an effeminate lisp (Scar), a Blaccent (Shenzi), was an urban Chicano (Banzai), or rambled like a complete idiot (Ed). Plus, some viewers were vocally upset at the fact that the Elephant Graveyard was pretty much the "ghetto" of the Pridelands, that bad area on the outskirts of the town.

Albert

[BelleGirl]

Cheech Marin is Mexican American, and IIRC, the main criticism was that all the "good" characters spoke in refined (Mufasa) and snobby (Zazu) tones, while the bad characters spoke as if they had an effeminate lisp (Scar), a Blaccent (Shenzi), was an urban Chicano (Banzai), or rambled like a complete idiot (Ed). Plus, some viewers were vocally upset at the fact that the Elephant Graveyard was pretty much the "ghetto" of the Pridelands, that bad area on the outskirts of the town.

Albert

Tho me this all sounds a bit like hairsplitting. Or am I not sensitive enough?

[steve]

If the setting of Atlantica is the Caribbean (?) why is Neptune white, and his primary subject black?

We know you mean King Triton, of course.

[2099net]

In response to some of the comments about Sebastian, just because the person doing the voice was black does not mean that he's supposed to be thought of as a black character (in the movie, he's red ).

I just think it's wierd when people complain saying a character is racist when they are the good guys. It makes me think of what Jerry said in an episode of Seinfeld: "If I like their race, how is that racist?"

But the fact remains he is black. Most people will make that association from the voice accent and the character design. And he's the only "black" character in the movie, he is pretty much the only character in the movie with a subservient role and the only character in the movie who is afraid of <strike>Neptune's</strike> Triton's wrath - he's constantly apologising and bowing and scraping to the monach.

It's nothing to do with the function Sebastian brings to the role through his jaunty Caribbean music and singing. It's how the (one could even claim, token) "black" character is percieved by the other characters.

I'm not saying he *IS* racist, but I can 100% understand people who claim he is. People who just dismiss such concerns immediately are letting their love of the film and Disney blind them to what is obviously a fault with the movie.

Let me ask you - would you be so quick to dismiss the claims of racism had The Little Mermaid been made in the 1940's?

We know you mean King Triton, of course.

Oops!

[steve]

While I would take the position that Chef Louis is a well-meant caricature, I'm surprised that he hasn't been suggested as a racist stereotype...

Also, I'd agree that immediate dismissal of concerns that some Disney characters are racist is naive (given that there are some; I'm thinking of Sunflower in Fantasia), BUT I'd also think that such concerns are misguided, especially when we're talking about innocently conceived characters such as Sebastian. Howard Ashman and Alan Menken didn't say "Hey, let's create a racially offensive character! That'll help put Disney back on track after the 70s and 80s!" They set out to create a Broadway-style musical with Calypso stylings. It just goes to show that, if people go looking for "racist stereotypes", they can find them.

[blackcauldron85]

So black characters can never be below higher-ranking people? I'm definitely not trying to be insensitive, but why is it alright for Cinderella and Snow White to be measly maids, treated horribly by their step-mothers, but non-Caucasian characters must be above everyone else?

And, Sebastian isn't the only creature in the kingdom that is below King Triton! What about the seahorse who blows the horn to announce things? He's below King Triton, and no one complains. Everyone is below King Triton!

And, I agree with gregmasciola- Sebastian is red...his voice actor is a black man, yes, but Sebastian isn't African...he's Carribean if anything...

This opens the whole can of worms...people who have issues with this whole topic usually are upset because they don't want pop culture to "glorify" slavery and things like that. But what if the character isn't of African decent? I don't know much about the Caribbean, and maybe people from the Caribbean are decended from Africans, but they're not African...sure, they're still black...

What about Simba?!? His speaking voice was done by Jonathan Taylor Thomas, a white boy, while Jason Weaver, who is black, provided his singing voice...I'm surprised no one has made a stink about that...

Just as I said the last time: If Disney doesn't has no varying ethnicity in its films, people will complain, and when they do, people complain. It's frustrating for all parties.

Here are a couple articles dealing with this subject (the 2nd link is to an article that also is linked to in the 1st artcile):

http://animationguildblog.blogspot.com/ ... rtoon.html
http://www.michaelbarrier.com/Commentar ... rtoon.html

[MK Sharp]

it's a black character serving a white master.

Of course, you could say much the same thing about The West Wing - a young black boy serving the needs of an older more powerful white man. And the white man doesn't even want the black boy to date his daughter! But there aren't too many people calling The West Wing a racist diatribe (as far as I know - after all, there could be whole mad internet sites devoted to the topic; there seem to be mad internet sites devoted to pretty much everything else!).

It's worth observing, inter alia, that racism doesn't have to be offensive or derogatory - it's the drawing attention to the fact of a person's race that is considered racist. Hence the charge of racism towards a crab who is able to be perceived as a black crab. The corollory to that, though, would seem to be that all animated animals should be presented as race-neutral, which I've a sinking feeling ultimately equates to "white" - which, frankly, strikes me as being just as insidious as what's happening now. Imagine not being able to cast any black voice actors just in case they happen to come across as sounding a bit black...

[disneyfella]

Also, I'd agree that immediate dismissal of concerns that some Disney characters are racist is naive (given that there are some; I'm thinking of Sunflower in Fantasia), BUT I'd also think that such concerns are misguided, especially when we're talking about innocently conceived characters such as Sebastian. Howard Ashman and Alan Menken didn't say "Hey, let's create a racially offensive character! That'll help put Disney back on track after the 70s and 80s!" They set out to create a Broadway-style musical with Calypso stylings. It just goes to show that, if people go looking for "racist stereotypes", they can find them.

I am a firm believer that most of what people complain about as racist stereotypes in Disney films (or any film/tv medium) are simply ignorant stereotypes. Does that NOT need to be acknowledged and/or corrected though? If a child were to use a derogatory slang against an ethnic group (i.e. a Jewish person), even though they never meant it to come across that way...you still need to stop, acknowledge the mistake, and correct it. Learn from the mistake. It's only natural that it happens. Covering it up or ignoring it, however, is the worst thing that can happen.

It's worth observing, inter alia, that racism doesn't have to be offensive or derogatory - it's the drawing attention to the fact of a person's race that is considered racist. Hence the charge of racism towards a crab who is able to be perceived as a black crab. The corollory to that, though, would seem to be that all animated animals should be presented as race-neutral, which I've a sinking feeling ultimately equates to "white" - which, frankly, strikes me as being just as insidious as what's happening now. Imagine not being able to cast any black voice actors just in case they happen to come across as sounding a bit black...

I really like this thought. It is interesting and I'll probably be thinking about it for a while... I believe you are totally right, though.

Just as I said the last time: If Disney doesn't has no varying ethnicity in its films, people will complain, and when they do, people complain. It's frustrating for all parties.

I completely and 100% agree. Disney is damned if they do, and damned if they don't. There is no 'right' answer on what to do, so Disney usually treads on soft ground when they are concerned about these things. No one thinks that they intentionally putting racist things in their films. On the contrary Disney has shown that they are so concerned about this that they will edit out racist things (which I wholeheartedly disagree with). But still, these stereotypes are a product of their times...and can be seen as racist after the fact.







But ignoring any possible 'oops' or step into racism is not the answer. If you just write off a racist complaint because "it's Disney", or "a white character has been there", or you "don't think there were racist intentions" doesn't mean that the stereotype can't affect people.

In fact, it's the silent racism that is the problem today....the one that people don't think exists. It's never been a malicious thing (even during slavery). It has always been due to ignorance. People are just brought up to associate groups of people with stereotypes (often false stereotypes).

I dunno, I'm not saying that I agree with any of the complaints against these Disney films as racist characters. I'm merely defending their claim for the sole purpose of further reflection (whether merit is found or not). Honestly, I'm just glad that people are discussing it

[Ariel'sprince]

Everyone is below King Triton!

Everyone exept Ariel .
And yeah,I agree,why it's okay that Snow White and Cinderella will be cleaning around for their stepmothers and Jasmine can be a slave for 2 scenes but Tiana can't? they gets their happily ever afters in the end,so why?.

[blackcauldron85]

Everyone is below King Triton!

Everyone exept Ariel .

Ariel and her sisters are still below their father- he's the king! He rules over everyone. Ariel can't tell her dad what to do, but he sure can tell her what to do!

And, MK Sharp & disneyfella- you both made really good points. I don't necessarily have anything to say about what you wrote yet, but I just wanted to let you know that I thought that you made good points.

[Ariel'sprince]

What if she takes the Trident? .
Ariel is the queen of the sea .

[2099net]

it's a black character serving a white master.

Of course, you could say much the same thing about The West Wing - a young black boy serving the needs of an older more powerful white man. And the white man doesn't even want the black boy to date his daughter! But there aren't too many people calling The West Wing a racist diatribe (as far as I know - after all, there could be whole mad internet sites devoted to the topic; there seem to be mad internet sites devoted to pretty much everything else!).

I'm not familiar with the West Wing, but I doubt the said black boy is the only character of colour in the entire show. And the fact a white man doesn't want his daughter to date the black boy isn't racism as such, or you may as well say "Burning Mississippi" is a racist film. It's being done (I assume) to rise the issue and challenge the viewers' opinions.

It's worth observing, inter alia, that racism doesn't have to be offensive or derogatory - it's the drawing attention to the fact of a person's race that is considered racist. Hence the charge of racism towards a crab who is able to be perceived as a black crab. The corollory to that, though, would seem to be that all animated animals should be presented as race-neutral, which I've a sinking feeling ultimately equates to "white" - which, frankly, strikes me as being just as insidious as what's happening now. Imagine not being able to cast any black voice actors just in case they happen to come across as sounding a bit black...

There's nothing wrong with having non-white characters or designs. It's to be applauded. Look at the Simpsons – the Simpsons is a hot bed of ethnic characters and even jokes. But very few people claim the Simpsons is racist. Because it doesn't appear to single out one race – the Simpsons has an equal opportunity policy when it comes to mocking, stereotypes or even just character designs.

But The Little Mermaid is most definitely not a multi-cultural masterpiece. And that's why its easily perceived as being an issue. Sebastian is a token non-Caucasian presence.

Amy, that's why Disney isn't doing anything right by casting a black voice actor. Or if they are, they're casting "one". Okay, they have a black voice cast member. It's hardly an example of Disney embracing the nations and races of the world. When Disney make a film like High School Musical, the race of the character's isn't open to criticism, because there's a wide range of races. I know some will claim the story is set in Europe, but that's not really an argument. The story is set precisely "nowhere" and by including Sebastian, the creators have already shown the geographic logic can be stretched. And beyond that, they're animated characters – a voice actor of any race could voice any role (as has been pointed out regarding the mixture of voices for The Lion King). It's been a while since I saw it, and I don't have time to check, but when you see all the Merpeople gathered together, do you see any coloured merfolk? I know you do in Little Mermaid II, but do you in the original film? Apparently they're allowed to have different tail colours, but none are allowed to have black skin?

All this talk about "everyone" being below Triton too is misleading. Out of all the major characters, only one kowtows to the king repeatedly. And it just so happens that this character is "black". This is repeatedly shown on the screen. It's repeatedly written in the script. It is something re-enforced throughout the movie. Yes, logically everyone is below the king, but only one character "acts" below the king – and he does this for the entirety of the film.

[UmbrellaFish]

Yes, logically everyone is below the king, but only one character "acts" below the king – and he does this for the entirety of the film.

Not quite. The seahorse pops into my head. It should be remembered that the main characters in the film are pretty much Sebastian, Flounder, and Ariel. We see little of Flounder around the King, and when he is, he's terrified, and Ariel (and her sisters), being his daughter, is going to act differently to the King due to her heirtage and the fact she's the star of the film. Since those are the only characters in the film to have much contact with the King, it shouldn't be assumed Sebastian is the only one that acts below the King. There's also a trait of Sebastian common in many "second-in-commands" found in other movies. They often over-work themselves, but yet constantly admire their boss and kiss up to him. It reminds me of the relationship between Dennis Finch and Jack Gallo in "Just Shoot Me!". It should also be remembered that Sebastian has the highest title in King Triton's court, so it's not like he wouldn't be respected around the castle.

There was a black mermaid in the series. You may be right that all the merpeople are white in the original film.. I'll have to check.

[Disney's Divinity]

Well, to be fair, it would be hard to explain a black-skinned mermaid anyway. I could be wrong, but doesn't black skin comes from a continuous exposure to sunlight through generations? Mermaids don't even come in contact with the sun, so they should be extremely pale. But I still get your point. Even so, the Broadway musical seems to make up for that fact, as both Triton and several of his daughters are black.

Also, I kind of agree with UmbrellaFish, because Flounder becomes nervous when he's around Triton as well. Only Ursula seem to be unaffected by him. In fact, if you remember, several key scenes from the film involve Triton taking Sebastian's advice. Sebastian even comes pretty close to saving the day for everyone.

To get off TLM, I'm kind of surprised noone's mentioned the Muses as racial stereotypes yet.

[Ariel'sprince]

I'm kind of surprised noone's mentioned the Muses as racial stereotypes yet.

I"m surprised that nobody talked about Dumbo,that was more racist then a crab (That scene with black people buliding the circus singing something like "We work all day and night and we never learned how to wirte or read").
Yeah,there were 2 black mermaids in the series-Gabriella and another mermaid in Red (She was dancing in Ariel's party),there was also black mermen (I think in Thanks For Dot,Ariel and more episode,they were swimming in the market or something and sometimes they run away with other white merpeople from things).