Song of the South Releases

[drfsupercenter]

Hi,

I'm working on putting together a hybrid source, native-NTSC with no subtitles, version of Song of the South, so it would be the only non-n00b release out there.

The majority of the movie I got from a rip of the Japanese laserdisc, but that has subtitles on the song.

My first thought was to buy the UK VHS, record at a 25fps rate, and then slow it down to 23.976. But I was reading around on www.songofthesouth.net and saw that there was a Dutch (Netherlands) VHS released in 1997. As far as I know, this is the newest release of this movie anywhere.

Does anyone happen to know if it's remastered at all? Even if it isn't, does it happen to look better than a pristine 80s UK VHS?

Any answers would be appreciated

[Escapay]

It might be easier to just get a DVD from someone in the UK who recorded it when it was on BBC a couple years ago. The version they aired looked better than any VHS or laserdisc release.

I did an early comparison to show the difference, with the Hong Kong laserdisc on the left, the BBC broadcast in the center, and the segment as it appeared in "One Hour in Wonderland" (on AiW's Masterpiece Edition DVD)...


The width of the individual images are a bit off, though.

Later, ichabod posted a BBC-broadcast cap of the infamous lace collar to complement the cap I post every so often...

The Hong Kong Laserdisc:


The BBC Broadcast:


Albert

[drfsupercenter]

Was it the original unedited release?

And what about framerate... was it 25fps (it would need to be recorded at 25fps to be worth anything), or 29.97fps?

I never knew anything about it being on BBC, the only ones I've seen are the Hong Kong laserdisc (actually a bad quality PAL transfer, not even properly inverse telecined so it's worth nothing) and the Japanese laserdisc, that has subtitles.

Was it 4:3 on BBC? I know a lot of their stuff is widescreen, and that it was tilt-and-scanned in theaters in 1986.

[Escapay]

Was it the original unedited release?

Considering the fact that there's never been an edited release, then yes, it most likely was the original.

And what about framerate... was it 25fps (it would need to be recorded at 25fps to be worth anything), or 29.97fps?

You'd probably be better off asking netty or ichabod about that, as they're the ones in the UK who recorded it (I'm in New Jersey).

Was it 4:3 on BBC?

In netty's post from the thread I referenced earlier he says...

The version shown was taken from a NTSC master, as it recording exhibits 3:2 Pulldown, (This is something most visible on the hanging Brer Rabbit shot) and is not something that would be present on a new PAL transfer. Although the ghosting looks bad on still captures, you tend not to notice it with movement (much the same way film grain is more visible on static shots).

Overall though, its not a bad transfer. The opening is slightly shrunk and windowboxed to allow the full detail to be visible on the screen. The windowboxing is removed once the opening credits have finished.

Albert

[drfsupercenter]

Yes, there certainly was an edited release.
The 1986 theatrical version removed the "Tar Baby" scene because they thought it was politically incorrect.

The problem here is that it's 29.97 fps being broadcast at 25. Even if I converted framerates, this can cause some telecining problems, which are not desirable. I'd need one recorded either native PAL or native NTSC.

So does anyone know about the VHSes?

[Escapay]

Yes, there certainly was an edited release.
The 1986 theatrical version removed the "Tar Baby" scene because they thought it was politically incorrect.

Wow, that's news to me! Thanks for the interesting tidbit (though I wonder how they worked around the Tar Baby scene since part of that story inspires Johnny to use reverse psychology later on with the Faver boys).

The problem here is that it's 29.97 fps being broadcast at 25. Even if I converted framerates, this can cause some telecining problems, which are not desirable. I'd need one recorded either native PAL or native NTSC.

So does anyone know about the VHSes?

Sorry, I guess I can't help you there, I'm not as technologically adept in this kind of stuff as netty or the posts-once-in-a-blue-moon deathie mouse would be.

Albert

[2099net]

It was not edited to my knowledge as the Tar Baby scene was intact. Of course, being as this is the only Song of the South I have seen, it is possible something else was edited out and I wouldn't know.

The problem here is that it's 29.97 fps being broadcast at 25. Even if I converted framerates, this can cause some telecining problems, which are not desirable. I'd need one recorded either native PAL or native NTSC.

So does anyone know about the VHSes?

Surely if it was recorded in native NTSC it would still have the 3:2 pulldown when screened resulting in "jerks"? This screening was obviously taken from a NTSC master as they simply re-integrated the duplicated frames from the 3:2 pulldown back into the 25fps required for PAL TV, resulting in many frames having the faint ghosting of the previous frame. Of course, when it motion this is hardly noticable, but very noticable on some static screens - like the one below. (Excuse the quality - its a new relatively low-bandwidth MPEG2 encoding of material already transmitted over the air in relatively low-bandwidth MPEG2 on UK digital TV).



The BBC showing probably didn't use the full PAL definition either - I would imagine they upconverted the NTSC resolution.

Here is an image showing the opening windowboxing.



As for the VHS, I have not seen it. But from the few VHS releases I did have some are completely new PAL transfers, and some are NTSC transfers converted to PAL (so exhibit 3:2 ghosting). I don't know the logic of their choices, but I guess it was based on projected sales and budgets.

The good thing with DVD is that more often than not PAL territories get PAL specific transfers.

[drfsupercenter]

The PAL VHSes were sped up by 4%, so that if slowed down, it would be native NTSC.

Broadcasting NTSC at PAL framerate or vice versa is probably the worst one can do to a video... as it's impossible to fix. So somehow I'm thinking this BBC broadcast won't help me much.

[merlinjones]

>>Yes, there certainly was an edited release. The 1986 theatrical version removed the "Tar Baby" scene because they thought it was politically incorrect.<<

This is absolutely incorrect information.

I saw the 1986 reissue of "Song of the South" many times, at Mann's Chinese and elsewhere, and there were no cuts to the film whatsoever. And no measurable negative response to the movie in the audience for that matter. They loved it!

There have been no cut versions of the film to my knowledge. The Tar Baby has never been edited. All of the foreign video versions and masters were complete.

"Fantasia" has been edited (the centaur sequence, beginning in 1963), but never "SOTS."

[drfsupercenter]

Really? All the sites selling bootlegs said that it was edited and that they offer the "unedited version". But that's nice to know.

But wasn't it tilt-and-scan (top and bottom cut off to make it widescreen) in 1986? And possibly the 70s release too.

[merlinjones]

>>Really? All the sites selling bootlegs said that it was edited and that they offer the "unedited version".<<

That is incorrect. Clever sales hook though.

>>But wasn't it tilt-and-scan (top and bottom cut off to make it widescreen) in 1986? And possibly the 70s release too.<<

No, I believe those particular prints were 1:33 as always, but many theatres masked the projection for an improper widescreen effect, cutting off the top and bottom of the picture, as happened frequently in that era of reissues.

One of the few animated classics that was actually vertically pan-and-scanned for 1:85 was an 80's or 90's reissue of Jungle Book. Awful.

[ichabod]

Perhaps this can settle my mind to rest, perhaps those with the different LDs and sources could check their versions for me.

At roughly 29/30 mins into the film when Uncle Remus Brings Johnny home and they are standing on the porch. Just after Tempy drags Toby off saying "Didn't I tell you to run off home..."

Next the grandmother says to Unlce Remus "You and your stories."

On the versions other than the BBC version, what is the next dialogue after "You and your stories"?

[Mollyzkoubou]

The PAL VHSes were sped up by 4%, so that if slowed down, it would be native NTSC.

Broadcasting NTSC at PAL framerate or vice versa is probably the worst one can do to a video... as it's impossible to fix. So somehow I'm thinking this BBC broadcast won't help me much.

Not impossible, just incredibly difficult.

[Mollyzkoubou]

One of the few animated classics that was actually vertically pan-and-scanned for 1:85 was an 80's or 90's reissue of Jungle Book. Awful.

Isn't that a 2006 or 2007 release that was tilt-scanned?

[Escapay]

Perhaps this can settle my mind to rest, perhaps those with the different LDs and sources could check their versions for me.

At roughly 29/30 mins into the film when Uncle Remus Brings Johnny home and they are standing on the porch. Just after Tempy drags Toby off saying "Didn't I tell you to run off home..."

Next the grandmother says to Unlce Remus "You and your stories."

On the versions other than the BBC version, what is the next dialogue after "You and your stories"?

Miss Doshy: You and your stories.
Uncle Remus: Miss Doshy - what us gonna do 'bout dat chile*?
Miss Doshy: I wish I knew. A grandmother doesn't count for much these days
Uncle Remus: Yassum, it's a pity, too. What dat chile needs is his paw.
Miss Doshy: And that's what his mother needs - but I'm afraid it's going to take a little while for her to find that out.

*"chile" is pronounced like "style", not like "chili"

The whole script can be found here, with this particular scene found here.

Albert

[merlinjones]

>>Isn't that a 2006 or 2007 release that was tilt-scanned?<<

RE: Junge Book. I'm talking vertical pan & scan for theatrical reissue. Yeah - - the new DVD is in the wrong aspect ratio as well.

[Matt]

this really needs to be released on DVD ASAP! I really want this movie!

[ichabod]

Miss Doshy: You and your stories.
Uncle Remus: Miss Doshy - what us gonna do 'bout dat chile*?
Miss Doshy: I wish I knew. A grandmother doesn't count for much these days
Uncle Remus: Yassum, it's a pity, too. What dat chile needs is his paw.
Miss Doshy: And that's what his mother needs - but I'm afraid it's going to take a little while for her to find that out.

Yes that matches the version I have.

The reason I ask (which you're probably wondering) is that between Miss Doshy saying "You and youre stories" and Remus replying "Miss Doshy, what us gonna do...", there is an odd cut in the film. Yet it is not a cut to a different angle the footage after the cut is of almost exactly the same shot, and it looks as either a portion has been chopped out or two different takes have been spliced together. Take a look yourselves those with copies. Your thoughts?

[Escapay]

The reason I ask (which you're probably wondering) is that between Miss Doshy saying "You and youre stories" and Remus replying "Miss Doshy, what us gonna do...", there is an odd cut in the film. Yet it is not a cut to a different angle the footage after the cut is of almost exactly the same shot, and it looks as either a portion has been chopped out or two different takes have been spliced together. Take a look yourselves those with copies. Your thoughts?

I checked my DVD (a rip of the HK laserdisc) and it cuts exactly as you said, between "You and your stories" and "Miss Doshy...". Perhaps it's a natural editing error back in 1946, as they had to combine two separate takes? You can tell it's a different take as Miss Doshy's hands are slightly placed differently on her (bag, purse, knitting?). I wish I had screencapping abilities again, I'd be able to take different caps...

A similar "jump" (where the angle remains the same, but is slightly moved) can also be found in Singin' in the Rain, when Gene Kelly first starts dancing with Cyd Charisse in the Broadway Ballet number. It always annoyed the hell out of me.

Albert

[ichabod]

I checked my DVD (a rip of the HK laserdisc) and it cuts exactly as you said, between "You and your stories" and "Miss Doshy...". Perhaps it's a natural editing error back in 1946, as they had to combine two separate takes? You can tell it's a different take as Miss Doshy's hands are slightly placed differently on her (bag, purse, knitting?). I wish I had screencapping abilities again, I'd be able to take different caps...
Albert

It's annoying as hell isn't it! To be honest my conspiracy nodule twitches whenever I get to that scene, because of the rumour that once circulated the the grandmother said to Uncle Remus "You meddling old n*****" or something to that effect.

It's years since I heard that and I couldnt find reference to it searching today. Probably it is nothing but a rumour, but it does make one wonder.