Should Pocahontas be considered a member of the 'Fab 4'?

[SpringHeelJack]

Actually, wasn't "Robin Hood" the most financially successful Disney animated film up until that point? I'd consider that a "huge hit".

[Ariel'sprince]

slave2moonlight-i agree about If I Never knew You shouldn't be deleted (and they cut it from a stupid reason),it was a great song that explain their love and shouldn't be deleted,delete this song is like deleting So This Is Love from Cinderella,A Whole New World from Aladdin or Can You Feel The Love Tonight from The Lion King.

[271286]

I think the poll lacks certain answer options... like a "no, but almost" the two bottom options are very similair.. I chose maybe but it's a no... I just find the no option too negative...

I think Pocahontas comes in the same league as Mulan, Hunchback, Tarzan and Hercules...

[slave2moonlight]

I don't know, I have to say the name is fairly well merited. These are, in my opinion, and many others, four of Disney's best films. I think they really deserve a lot of the high recognition they receive - not to say the previous classics don't deserve to be ranked highly as well.

One reason why I think these 4 films tend to get a lot of recognition is because, prior to The Little Mermaid, Disney hadn't really had a great, blockbuster film since "The Jungle Book". Not to say that The Rescuers or Robin Hood, or any of the other films in between aren't good, they just weren't/aren't huge hits for Disney.

These really are truly great films and I think a lot of reason why they get so much hype is because they are the great Disney movies of this generation. I think "Cinderella", "Peter Pan", "Lady and the Tramp", and "Sleeping Beauty" could easily be considered the "Fab 4" of the 50's.

I don't disagree that they are four of Disney's best films (not saying they all make the top four, but all four are excellent). In fact, "Beauty and the Beast" gets my vote for Disney's best animated feature. What I have a problem with is the idea that the quality of the animated features Disney made after those four dropped significantly. It seems that most people who refer to Mermaid, Beast, Aladdin, and Lion King as the really great Disney animated features tend to follow up by saying that everything after that was crap. I know that not everyone here who is on the fab-four side is saying that, but what irks me is that I do consider films like the ones I mentioned before, Mulan, Tarzan, and Hunchback for example, to be every bit as good as those "fab four" in their own ways, with the exception of Beauty and the Beast, which I just think captured "fairytale" magic so perfectly in every aspect of itself that it gets bonus points from me.

I should add this though: Films like Aladdin, Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, and Lion King had far more kid appeal than a lot of what came after. In fact, the greatness of the later films seemed to require a bit more attention from the audience to be truly appreciated. Everyone loves a fairytale and snappy songs from cute animals. Films like Pocahontas, Tarzan, Hunchback, Mulan, and even Hercules in its own way (not to mention other post Lion King ones) had more adult themes, something that the mass audience in the U.S. still doesn't accept from theatrical animation. I'd say they were just as good but too mature for the masses who just wanted the next Broadway-style fairytale.

[ichabod]

Of course Pocahontas shouldnt be labelled with the "fab four", it's far better than that trash.

It should be labelled alongside The Hunchback of Notre Dame, Mulan, Hercules and Tarzan a.k.a. "The Fabulous Five".

[Simba3]

It seems that most people who refer to Mermaid, Beast, Aladdin, and Lion King as the really great Disney animated features tend to follow up by saying that everything after that was crap. I know that not everyone here who is on the fab-four side is saying that, but what irks me is that I do consider films like the ones I mentioned before, Mulan, Tarzan, and Hunchback for example, to be every bit as good as those "fab four" in their own ways, with the exception of Beauty and the Beast, which I just think captured "fairytale" magic so perfectly in every aspect of itself that it gets bonus points from me.

Oh no, I certainly wouldn't follow up that statement by saying the movies that follow The Lion King are "crap". What I would say is that most of the movies after "Tarzan" are crap. I think "The Hunchback of Notre Dame", "Hercules", "Mulan", and "Tarzan" are all great films, as well as "Pocahontas". Now, in my opinion, the "Fab 4" movies all stand out over the 5 films that come after. However, I still think those movies are really great films, and many of them would rank shortly under that "Fab 4". But, these are just my opinions on the matter.

[PeterPanfan]

I'd say Pocahontas is a leader in the more mature Disney films. Now that I've thought about it more, it seems that it is too adult to be considered part of the "Fab 4", because while The Little Mermaid, Lion King, Beauty and the Beast, and Aladdin have semi-adult themes, they really aren't that huge. They're more aimed toward a younger audiance(which is debatable.)

Hunchback of Notre Dame is very mature, which is probably why it wasn't that big of a hit.

I think there should be two different "Fab 4's". One, the original, which includes The Little Mermaind, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin, and The Lion King.
Then there should be a seperate "Fab 4" for adults. That would include Pocahontas, The Hunchback of Notre Dame, Mulan, and Tarzan. Maybe Hercules, because I think that was lighter than the formers.

But in all reality, if you think about it, the "Fab 4" is just Disney's biggest money makers for the newer generation. They all did great at the box office, and even if they were all made after Mulan, Hunchback, etc. they would probably STILL be the Fab 4.

[David S.]

For what it's worth, Pocahontas is one of my favorite DACs released in the Eisner/post Eisner era, and I think Colors of the Wind is one of the most beautiful Disney songs ever, especially when you consider the lyrics.

Also, I liked this a LOT more than Lion King (which is somewhat unusual for me, because I tend to prefer the "animal" films over the "people" films.)

The theme of Pocahontas really resonated with me.

So on the strength of these things, I would have to say yes.

Also, I don't quite agree that it's more "adult" than the "Fab 4".

What could be more traumatic for the kiddies than the death of Mufasa, which echoes the depressing tragedy midway through Bambi over 50 years earlier?

Pocahantas has no such heartbreaking moment. I guess "romantics" will point to the alledged "unhappy" ending of Pocahontas, but this ending has never particularly depressed me. It didn't even rule out the possibility that they may one day see each other again.

Also, Poca had some really cute animal sidekicks, who, since they didn't speak, didn't run the risk of straying into obnoxious territory or dominating the picture.

PS. I would agree that Hunchback is more "adult" and darker in tone than the "Fab 4", particularly the "Hellfire" sequence. I was surprised that Home on the Range got slapped with a PG rating since Hunchback got away with a G.

[271286]

I think Colors of the Wind is one of the most beautiful Disney songs ever, especially when you consider the lyrics.

Colours Of The Wind is beautiful (Funny to think that it's Wilhemina from Ugly Betty singing it no? LOL) But I prefer If I Never Knew You -WOW that song is truly amazing! I can't believe they left it out if the original movie... To me the only version of Pocahontas is now the Anniversary Edition!

[David S.]

Yes, I agree, it's beautiful. I NEVER watch the original theatrical version anymore now that they did the right thing and reinserted the song in the 10th Aniversary edition. It should have never been cut in the first place!

I prefer Colors, though. Not a slight in any way towards If I Never Knew You - Colors just struck all the right chords in me as it reflects a lot of how I feel about things. I quite like the ideal of animals and even plants having a "spirit" and that they are no less important than people - indeed how every living thing is here to be what it IS and not to be exploited for what it is "worth".

[slave2moonlight]

Also, I don't quite agree that it's more "adult" than the "Fab 4".

What could be more traumatic for the kiddies than the death of Mufasa, which echoes the depressing tragedy midway through Bambi over 50 years earlier?

Pocahantas has no such heartbreaking moment. I guess "romantics" will point to the alledged "unhappy" ending of Pocahontas, but this ending has never particularly depressed me. It didn't even rule out the possibility that they may one day see each other again.

Of course, it wasn't as heartbreaking for the audience, but Kocoum was killed in Pocahontas. However, I'm not saying there were no adult themes at all in the fab four. But, the Lion King was the most adult of the group, and that was greatly counteracted by the fact that it was all about talking animals and had so much comic relief and cuetsyness. When you get down to it, though the older viewer can get more into the story of Simba's inner battle, for the simpler viewer it was all about beating the bad guy and just as satisfying that way.

In the case of Pocahontas, the true bad guy was prejudice, and when trying to view Ratcliffe as the sole baddie it isn't successful because he's not ever intended to carry that weight. Pocahontas is about people hating each other out of ignorance and killing each other. The Lion King has one villain whom I love but is just your typical greedy, jealous villain that must be defeated. He is meant to be the main baddie, Simba's self-doubt meant to be second to Scar. In Pocahontas and some of the other post-Lion King films, they reverse (or increase, in case you felt they were equalized before) the importance of inner struggles, making the films more adult as a whole.


Another major example is Tarzan. It does have talking animals and a lot of humor, but take Simba's inner struggle for a comparison again. It wasn't the main problem of the film. Scar was. Tarzan's inner struggle was what the whole film was focused on. The film didn't even have one villain throughout, it had one for the first half and another for the second half. They were important but weren't at the heart of the story, Tarzan's desire to find who he was and his place in the world was.

[jennydumas]

I love all Disney movies, but this one is just incredibly imaginative to me. I love everything about it. So it should be on the list(even though I couldn't choose the rest spots because of ties)

[Billy Moon]

Pocahontas is by far my favorite disney film from the 90's. I think it has much more of the Disney-era feeling to it than any other released after the 70's.

[BelleGirl]

I'd rather have we drop the whole concept of 'fab four'. Who first came up with this list anyway?
Who decides whether The Lion King is superior to Huncback of Notre Dame for instance? And what criteria do you use for it: the box office results, average rating at IMDB, (number of) awards?

In that case TLK would indeed be superiour to THOND. Yet there are enough people who prefer the last to the first, as much as there are people who like Pocahontas much more than TLK or TLM.

Instead of worrying about whether this movie should be part of the infamous "fab four/fab five" or whatever I'd call upon Disney fans who really like Pocahontas to rate it at IMDB.com. The average rating of that movie is still depressingly low at 5.7!

I did not vote because there was no possibility to vote "Needless question. Forget about 'Fab four', Disney movies should each be judged for their own merits."

Jim Miles expresses a similar sentiment in his column, and I fully agree with him:
http://www.laughingplace.com/News-ID180160.asp

[UncleEd]

Pocahontas made more money than all of the animated features up until that time except Lion King. The songs are solid. The statement that it's a failure is a myth.

I like to think of Pocahontas, Hunchback, and Hercules mirroring Mermaid, Beauty, and Aladdin.

[David S.]

Jenny -

Nice avatar and sig. I am VERY sorry to hear about your cat.

[Lazario]

I voted Yes.
Because it's better than both The Lion King and Beauty and the Beast.

[BelleGirl]

I voted Yes.
Because it's better than both The Lion King and Beauty and the Beast.

So in your case, Lazario, it would probably rather be the fabulous three"!

Only proves my point that it's stupid to pick a number of succesfull DAC's and declare them superior to other movies, as if by higher order:
"These movies are the best DAC's of the decade, and don't you dare to deny it! "Oh please, I love this other movie so much, can it be part of the fab ... [fill in a number]?

[Disney's Divinity]

People tend to forget that Pocahontas still made more money in the box office than The Little Mermaid anyway (that's excluding inflation though, however I can't see inflation making a huge amount of difference in 5 years.)

Well, there's more than money to consider about a feature: for example, TLM was released after a steady decline in profits and public acceptance. In fact, most people probably believed the same about Disney that's thought now (that it's just for children and there's nothing entertaining there for adults). Mermaid may not have been a huge financial success, but, simply by word-of-mouth, it aided in the uphill climb of the 3 films that followed it (all great individually, but I'm sure people were more willing to give the movies a chance when others were praising the studio). Pocahontas, on the other hand, mostly gained success from all those movie-goers who thrived on TLK and expected something as fantastic (to them). So, its grabbing of greater financial success hardly counts as a good argument.

As for me: No. The film has great animation, but I find it seriously flawed (in the same that most films that followed it). Mostly, I find it to be formulaic, but that's just me. Also, if they were really intending to create a mature storyline, what was the point in deviating so far from the actual story? There's a majority-rules idea with the Fab Four as well. It's not that the movies actually are Disney's best (that's really a personal opinion), but that they are generally accepted as such. Saying every movie's special is the same as saying none of them are ( ).

[The 89th Dalmation]

I think it does, because it is such an interesting movie, with great animation, as many others have said. The story is nowhere near as good as the other three in the four and there is a serious quality drop from "The Lion King". Still, it is an enjoyable film.