"Sunflower", racist Disney centaur stereotype.....

[disneyfella]

I'm not sure if anyone knows about this, but in the original 1940 version of "Fantasia" during Bethoveen's 'Pastoral Symphony' (where the centaurs all dance together), there was another centaur called Sunflower. She was animated as a very racist stereotype, and I believe Walt himself eventually made sure that the film was edited before one of its later reissues. If you have "Fantasia" on DVD, watch the sequence and you'll notice a few moments where the film gets extremely grainy and blurry when they zoomed in the picture. Here are the missing animated clips:

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AKwCMmv ... re=related

2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzT5-PD5 ... re=related

3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bek8ECIg ... re=related




I suppose I was wondering what everyone's thoughts were on this. Should it be edited out in future releases (I mean Walt himself wanted it that way), or should it remain intact?

Personally, if that sequence were to be in the film it would almost draw me out of the movie. However, knowing that it exists and noticing the blatant edits while watching the current edition I still get pulled out of the movie. I suppose an option for both would be best.

Here is a website with more information about Sunflower's history:
http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Disn ... lower.html

[Disneykid]

It should definitely be included in the Platinum Edition along with a branching option to have it removed. How are we supposed to learn from the past if we keep hiding people's mistakes from then? Besides, this isn't nearly as uncomfortable as the minstrel shows from Babes in Arms and Babes on Broadway (which I saw for the first time a couple of weeks ago when I bought the Mickey Rooney & Judy Garland Collection). If Disney's so worried about children seeing it, they can make the edited version the default one when "Play" is selected from the main menu, and put the uncut one in the "Set Up" menu (really, how many soccer moms visit THAT menu?).

[purin]

I normally can't stand when stuff is edited out to never be seen again, but... this is one exception. Yeah, archive the deleted footage somewhere, but bury it deep.

I originally assumed "Sunflower" looked like the zebras who rode out with Bacchus. I always thought those centaurettes were really pretty and cool, and I thought it was a shame we saw so little of them. Then I saw Sunflower and said to myself, "You have got to be kidding me." She is such an ugly little thing. Ew. Doesn't take long to figure out why she was cut out.

[Jack Skellington]

It's not racist, there were good looking black centaurs too !

[Super Aurora]

Yea PC-ness gets too insensitive nowadays that make me wish I did live in the 40's(kinda do) I mean come-on, it's an animated movie what's worse that can happen?

In fact I think Live action have more racism out there than animated features, yet they don't get "attacked"

hate soccer moms.

[purin]

Soccer moms? Don't you think that people other than soccer moms might take issue with stuff like this? I mean, I think what you imply by "soccer moms" is moms overly worried about what their kids see. What about people who are personally insulted by what's supposed to be fun for everyone?

I've been thinking about this subject all day long, how Sunflower is so different from the zebra centaurs who show up later with Dionysus ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYOOisZVLiI ). Not all stereotypes are the same. Consider the crows. They are stereotypes, but they're not subservient or inferior to Timothy or Dumbo, and they help Dumbo fly. The mushrooms are stereotypes, but they're mushrooms, so who cares? Some of the Looney Tunes have blackface, but out of context nobody gets it. What makes Sunflower different?

Without Sunflower in the picture, I don't necessarily see the other centaurs as "white," since they're mythical creatures that come in all colors of the rainbow. When the zebras show up, I thought "Oh, wow, Zebra centaurs," and figured they weren't in the rest of the show because this is about ancient Greece and they're obviously representing another species of centaur with a different culture with different customs. They're foreigners, in short. Sure, they're serving Dionysus, but he's a god, and their submission isn't very played up, though it is curious how they seem to disappear once the other centaurs come in. I know this probably wasn't the intention, but this is the impression this modern viewer had.

Sunflower changes everything. Sunflower really brings race relations into this in a way the others don't. Compare Sunflower to the zebras. The zebras look like the other centaurettes, but with a brown skin color, earrings, and some different decorations. They have the same build and structure, but are just a little different.

Sunflower, on the other hand, has wide thoughtless eyes, huge lips, and a goofy hair style. Her lips are almost an O-shape, though they aren't red, and that's enough like a popular representation most find insulting (where does it come from? It doesn't even look like anybody!). Her body language is silly and not as dignified as the others.

Also, look at how small she is! She follows in others' shadows, gets things thrown in her face. According to Wikipedia, she's a donkey, and not even a little horse.
She looks young. Is she a little girl? Why is a random little girl serving these centaurettes? Where are her parents? Is she a dwarf? If you've taken Art History, you may be familiar the concept of having a dwarf in the court to make nobles feel more superior. In paintings, they were often depicted as children and not dwarfs, and servants of royalty are often depicted as smaller (or uglier or darker) anyway to accentuate the superiority of the royal characters.

The zebras serve Dionysus, but they feel more like part of the party, even though they disappear. Sunflower only exists to serve the bigger centaurettes. Look at the body language between her and the centaurette whose train she holds. Is it simply "You're tailgating" or "Remember your place-don't get too close."

The thing I'm wondering is, why was it absolutely necessary to have this character? It's hard to picture these creatures who live outdoors and wear flowers having servants. Centaurs are being with a wild animal side. I don't think they earn money or have houses. Does Sunflower get paid, or is she just a servant because she's inferior in nature? Slaves in those times were debtors or prisoners of war, not necessarily someone of a different race. Centaurs represent a violent animal nature, but these centaurs are the opposite. As I said, they don't seem to have a concept of money, either, so how can there be debtors (and a child can't be in debt). Cherubs were already established in the movie as helpful creatures, so why not have them do it?

It's as if they went out of their way to bring race relations into this. Just think of how different the tone of this scene would be if Sunflower were the easily identifiable younger sister of one of the centaurettes. If you picture that, then you see a little girl who isn't part of the rights because she isn't old enough, but is helping out and getting overly eager carrying that train because she wants to grow up and be a pretty centaurette, too. There were probably people who had servants in Disney's audience, but I'm sure there were a lot more people who had little sisters. It would have spoken to the audience more.

[Ariel'sprince]

.
Anyway this is just funny,thinking about Tiana who was made for PC.

[Jules]

Am I the only one who thinks that Sunflower is kind of cute and likable?

[thatartguy]

This is one of the few times that I can accept censorship. The original author(s) making the decision during their lifetime.

HOWEVER!!! I also believe that the original footage should be available to people who wish to see it. Do they have to spend tens of thousands of dollars to restore it? No. But please let it be shown to those who want that option.

[SwordInTheStone777]

I never knew she even existed. This is a real treat to any fan of Fantasia or Disney.

[musicradio77]

Nice clip from "Fantasia" with the Sunflower character. I bet they removed that from the 1991 VHS and the 2000 DVD versions. The 1957 triple LP has the music intact but you can't see Sunflower in the light of day. It's on the third record of the deluxe set on vinyl. The second CD has the complete cut of the "Pastoral Symphony" and on the 1957 soundtrack LP, it's on side 4.

As you probably know, the "Fantasia" soundtrack LP was released in 1957 and it was later released in 1958 for stereo and on the CD release in 1990. Side 4 of this track "The Pastoral Symphony" was in stereo.

[thatartguy]

Disney himself removed the character from Fantasia in a 60's rerelease.

[MK Sharp]

Walt Disney also had the pig/accordian sequence removed from Steamboat Willie, but that's been reinstated for the Treasures DVD issues. Unless you want to argue against that decision too, I don't think "Walt cut it so it should remain cut for all time" is necessarily a useful blanket argument. Each case needs to be treated on its own merits.

In the specific case of Fantasia: on the one hand the inclusion of the black centaurette for the sake of a race-based gag is more unjustifable than usual for the reasons expressed well above by Purin; on the other hand the film is a document of its time. I feel a compromise solution would be, for any future release, to leave the film as it is now, but include the uncut version of the sequence within a framing documentary looking at the treatment of stereotypes in the 1930s. The main feature is thus presented in a sanitised version, but the original material is still available (albeit recontextualised) for those who wish to see it for historical purposes.

On the topic of Fantasia offensiveness, I'm surprised that the Rites Of Spring segment seems to have passed without much comment from committed Christians and Creationists. I'd be all in favour of having it cut from the film; not because of any religious reasons though, I just really dislike Stravinsky...

[rs_milo_whatever]

On the topic of Fantasia offensiveness, I'm surprised that the Rites Of Spring segment seems to have passed without much comment from committed Christians and Creationists. I'd be all in favour of having it cut from the film; not because of any religious reasons though, I just really dislike Stravinsky...

well i'm a Christian/Protestant and a creationist but i don't feel its offensive towards my religion; Mainly because its directed at children and i could easily look at it in a fantasy-like point of view. However i do know a lot of people who would immediately stop the film after seeing this segment becuase they do think its wrong but they don't see that films like The Lion King or The Little Mermaid have a lot more to be questioned than this part of the film (animals talking, mythological creatures, etc.)

my point is that Rites of Spring could be easily looked at as fantasy just like we see any other Disney film.

[Chernabog_Rocks]

How do we know she's actually a "servant". Perhaps she's like the younger sister that you boss around just because your older Or perhaps theirs a type of hiearchy (sp?) that we don't know about where younger centaurs are expected to do things for older centaurs (yes i realize how huge a stretch that is). Basically what I'm trying to say is, it's never confirmed, nor denied that Sunflower is a servant.

As for the body language between Sunflower and the centaurette in the last clip, perhaps it's more of a "stop bugging me" instead of "remember your place" I don't remember seeing Sunflower when the other centaurette ran up to th rest.


I think that we shouldn't ban this scene to the vault forever and act like it never happened, this scene is a product of it's time and things are different now.

I don't agree with you on one thing Purin, about the "wide thoughtless eyes". To me perhaps they weren't intended as "thoughtless" but more so as "wide eyed innocence" after all she does appear younger than the others, and is probably more youthful and innocent, and maybe the eyes were intented to reflect that? Perhaps her body language wasn't as dignified due to her age?

[thatartguy]

I just wanted to reiterate my previous post. I am definitely in favor of having the footage available for those who wish to see it. I simply wanted people to know that Walt himself removed the footage instead of the "PC Police."

[purin]

There were "PC Police" even back then, if you can believe that. They were concerned about the crows in Dumbo.

She could easily be a little sister if she didn't look so much like a black stereotype. She's a horse (or, rather, donkey) of a different color, to make a bad joke.

I'm focusing on that superhappy to be shining hooves expression. As a cartoon, her eyes and expressions are perfectly normal, but when put next to other centaurs, there's a huge difference and it really sets her apart.

Definitely, there needs to be a compromise. I think Disney suffers from a bit of a George Lucas when it comes to its cuts and revisions (what do you mean, you "taped over" it?).

So! Either bury the footage on the DVD so the original uncut version is accessible, but to those who pay more attention than the parents who stick DVDs (make sure it's disc 1!) in without looking and let the fastplay take over, or release a version aimed toward film historians and film history teachers. I mean, I assume few people watch Birth of a Nation for genuine entertainment purposes. It's available as part of film history.

[Chernabog_Rocks]

I wonder, if Sunflower didn't have the stereotyped hair, or big lips, or even if her eyes were more like the other centaurs would she still be looked upon in the same way as she is now? I mean if you remove the stereotypes and made her look more similar to the Zebra Centaurs, but kept her actions and interactions the same. Perhaps in a future dvd release of Fantasia they could put her clips with a Leonard Maltin intro in a section of the dvd similar to From The Vaults on the Treasures sets.

[Siren]

I think if they made her like the zebra's the problems wouldn't have arose. None of the centaurs/ettes were essentially white. They were all different colors. They were represented as one species of different colors and they all have a good time.

But Sunflower is continually ignored and unrewarded. And the fact her looks were so very very different from the others, it makes her an obvious stereotype. Her style was a caricature. Where as the others were drawn in a more natural, realistic style. Where as the zebra centaurettes may have had dark skin, but they acted as graceful as any of the other, pink, purple, blue, yellow, etc ones.

I think deleting Sunflower was a good idea, however, I rather they have reanimated the parts with a new centaurette that would have fit the style in the first place. I don't care if they still kept a new young centuarette black or not, but they could have made it so it was cut all together.

OT: I can't help but think of PapiBear in this. He would have a field day.

[SwordInTheStone777]

How is her name Sunflower? None of the characters in Fantasia had names. Mickey was the only one who had a name.