Disney Debates: #2 Are people too accepting of Pixar films?

[REINIER]

It's funny that up untill now nobody has mentioned the competitive animation industry as a whole.
Dreamworks for instance has had a winning streak for years.
true, some is due to the formulaic fluffy animal characterizations but still this does prove effective.

I myself for instance simply hate the overall look of The Incredibles and i think anyone claiming that this is to be among the greatest pixar movies ever is downright ignorant.

Although I am a great fan of most pixar movies
(excluding bug's life and Incredibles, both of whom I've only seen once!)
there is something in their characterdesign that seems to have a standard look, the eyes of all charcters for instance are always this bulgy white marbles that look as though they could pop out any minute!

On another matter, it seems rather unlikely that both lasseter en steve jobs would both criticize former management decisions , since it is mostly
made up out of the same management that elected them creative goeroes

I think that both disney and their pixar-daugther in law should focus more on story and work out some new character designs that are less similar to their past efforts.

We know the bulgy eyes, the out of proportion bodies and are hungry for some new more creative approach to character design.

But hey, this may just be the booze talkin

[MadonnasManOne]

I myself for instance simply hate the overall look of The Incredibles and i think anyone claiming that this is to be among the greatest pixar movies ever is downright ignorant.

I consider The Incredibles to be among Pixar's greatest. So, that makes me ignorant? Pot calling the kettle black?

[2099net]

I have to disagree with MM1's opinion that The Incredibles could only be done with CGI. Its a classic comic book homage. I think it would look awesome with Kirby inspired handdrawn artwork. Jack Kirby was and always will be "the master". Nobody should take this as a slight against Pixar, because Pixar always say they are about the story, not the technology.

I too don't like the designs for The Incredibles. To me the women are just too thin and stringy. I think that's unwise for Pixar to do when there's so many young girls and young women with eating disorders. But that's just me. Stylistically, apart from that I have no complaints.

[REINIER]

I myself for instance simply hate the overall look of The Incredibles and i think anyone claiming that this is to be among the greatest pixar movies ever is downright ignorant.

I consider The Incredibles to be among Pixar's greatest. So, that makes me ignorant? Pot calling the kettle black?

please elaborate on what it is about the LOOK that you like so much,
maybe then i might see this movie in another light alltogether!
You'll have to have some strong arguments though, because looking at the dvd cover at this very instant, I still hate everything I see!

[MadonnasManOne]

please elaborate on what it is about the LOOK that you like so much,
maybe then i might see this movie in another light alltogether!
You'll have to have some strong arguments though, because looking at the dvd cover at this very instant, I still hate everything I see!

Actually, if you listen to the commentary, watch the documentary features, and search online for Brad Bird's comments on the reason the characters are designed as they are, you would understand the creative decisions. However, I highly doubt that you would look beyond the physical, considering your comments.

I also don't feel like debating, or arguing my reasons for liking the film (everything from the character designs to the story), with someone who considers me, and the many who do consider The Incredibles to be among Pixar's finest, as "downright ignorant". No thanks.

[Jules]

Those of you, who are saying that Pixar films are overrated....I have a question for you? How would you like it if I said that Disney films are overrated? I mean, after all, they have created some of the most beloved films of all time. People have an eternal love for the "classic" Disney films. Does that make them overrated? I don't think so. Then, it is not fair to call Pixar films overrated. In the grand scheme of things, when you are saying something is overrated, you are saying that something is not worthy of being loved, praised, or enjoyed. I hate the word overrated. It's snide, it's rude, and it is insulting to those who enjoy what others are calling overrated.

By overrated I normally understand something to be claimed better than it actually is. I don't mean that it's not worthy of being loved, praised or enjoyed. Furthermore, one sometimes says that something is slightly overrated, meaning that it is only encroaching that public area of adoration it does not deserve.

I love Disney, but I'm not afraid to say Beauty and the Beast is overrated. I love that film too, and I agree that Disney did a great job with it. However, to Disney's credit, I think they outdid that movie in later years, with others like Lion King and Hunchback. Thus I consider the last two even greater achievements than BatB (yes, even Hunchback). Think of it this way. BatB gets too much praise, hence overrated. Hunchback gets too little praise, hence underrated.

Make more sense now?

Oh ... and Finding Nemo is overrated.

[MadonnasManOne]

I have to disagree with MM1's opinion that The Incredibles could only be done with CGI. Its a classic comic book homage. I think it would look awesome with Kirby inspired handdrawn artwork. Jack Kirby was and always will be "the master". Nobody should take this as a slight against Pixar, because Pixar always say they are about the story, not the technology.

I too don't like the designs for The Incredibles. To me the women are just too thin and stringy. I think that's unwise for Pixar to do when there's so many young girls and young women with eating disorders. But that's just me. Stylistically, apart from that I have no complaints.

I didn't say it couldn't be done. I just don't think it would have worked. I certainly feel they could have done it. Just look at the beautiful hand drawn artwork done for the film, and those that were used in the menus of the DVD, as well as the closing credits of the film. Yes, I think it could have been done. Very much in the style of a comic book. However, I don't know how well that would have translated to the screen, nor how the reaction from the public would have been. I could be wrong. I would actually like to see them attempt it, just to see the end result. I know that will never happen, but, it would be fun.

As for the character designs, especially for the women, I refer you to the commentary track on the DVD, the making of features, and reading about why Brad Bird wanted the characters to look as they did. There are very excellent reasons for why they look the way they do. It has nothing to do with making women feel that they should look this way. Far from it.

[Jules]

MM1 you keep ignoring my posts.

[MadonnasManOne]

MM1 you keep ignoring my posts.

Not ignoring you, just haven't responded, yet. I will, don't worry.

[MagicMirror]

I think most of the praise Pixar receives is well-deserved. I honestly think that 'The Incredibles' and 'Ratatouille' are better than any Disney animated film since '101 Dalmatians'. I have said before that the 90s 2D Disney features tend to follow the same formula, and I still think that they are more formulaic than the Pixar features. I'm probably a little biased - Disney classics from 'The Little Mermaid' onwards seem to me to be much cornier and rather more 'brash' than the films that preceded them. Compare the cheezy 'I love you, daddy' moment in 'Mermaid' to 'Pinocchio', where the sentimentality is nicely displaced, mostly through comical scenes with Gepetto. The Pixar features seem to me to be more 'tasteful', in the vein of the earlier Disney features - sentimentality is not blatently stated and there is rarely a soppy, contrived moment.

Both 'Incredibles' and 'The Hunchback of Notre Dame' have adult themes - I don't criticise either of them for this. The reason I think 'Hunchback' is a worse film is that it can't decide whether it wants to be an adult film or a children's film. 'Incredibles' manages to be both without it seeming awkward at all, and I suspect this is because Pixar think less about the 'target audience'.

[REINIER]

please elaborate on what it is about the LOOK that you like so much,
maybe then i might see this movie in another light alltogether!
You'll have to have some strong arguments though, because looking at the dvd cover at this very instant, I still hate everything I see!

Actually, if you listen to the commentary, watch the documentary features, and search online for Brad Bird's comments on the reason the characters are designed as they are, you would understand the creative decisions. However, I highly doubt that you would look beyond the physical, considering your comments.

I also don't feel like debating, or arguing my reasons for liking the film (everything from the character designs to the story), with someone who considers me, and the many who do consider The Incredibles to be among Pixar's finest, as "downright ignorant". No thanks.

First of all let me say that I ,like yourself am entitled to my own opinion,
the comments made by me earlier are not to you personally or to anyone who does like The Incredibles, but i do have a very strong opinion about this subject.

You like many on the forum here cannot tolerate any anti-pixar sound.
Critisizing them is like spreading a disease, as far as you are concerned it's ''not done''.

We'll let me tell you that's what debating is for!

To share one's opinion with another.
However this may come across, it is the very foundation that holds a forum together.

But like you said earlier, anyone who can't seem to grasp that is indeed ignorant!

[MadonnasManOne]

MM1 you keep ignoring my posts.

I'm very glad that you are trying hard not to dislike Pixar because of jealousy. That's great.

As far as overrated, I still don't like the word. It just doesn't work, because no matter how it's meant to be stated, it's a blanket statement which means that the praise something receives is not worthy. I know you may not mean it that way, but, that's how it is perceived. It's funny that you consider Beauty and the Beast to be overrated. It is one of my all time favorite Disney films. The animation, the story, the songs, the voicework. It's all top notch. I just don't think that something that wonderful could ever be overrated. However, I understand that you don't mean to say it's not worthy of praise, so, I'll just ignore that overrated statement.

Don't get me wrong about Disney. Disney films remain some of my most beloved movies. I don't think less of Disney, just because I don't like their more recent CGI animated films. I have great hope for their upcoming films, and I hope that they see a new era of great films, a streak even greater than those of the past. That is my hope.

[starlioness]

the thing what I don't get about Finding Nemo is it's almost like Direct-to-Video sequels .. kid and parent get into argument kid takes off/gets kidnapped they later make up THE END.. I also thought Nemo was too long for my tastes.. but people still love it

[MadonnasManOne]

the thing what I don't get about Finding Nemo is it's almost like Direct-to-Video sequels .. kid and parent get into argument kid takes off/gets kidnapped they later make up THE END.. I also thought Nemo was too long for my tastes.. but people still love it

The thing I don't think people take into consideration is the execution. The same story can be told in hundreds, perhaps endless ways. However, it's HOW the story is told that matters. Execution!

[Kossage]

It's unfortunate that many of post-The Lion King films of Disney have been criticized so much (I guess it has to do with taste, but I think "the Renaissance" lasted to Fantasia 2000 after which Disney took a more experimental approach which to me was alright but produced films that were alright but could've been better), and yet Pixar's got a lot of praise for the most part even though at times I feel the hype was just too much (like in Finding Nemo which was an alright film but not as great as a lot of people said it is, IMHO). This is truly a shame, because Disney films like The Hunchback of Notre Dame, Tarzan or Treasure Planet are great and in my opinion deserve more praise than they got.

As for me, the two Pixar films I've enjoyed the most so far (I've yet to see Ratatouille) are Toy Story and The Incredibles. The rest of Pixar's films, albeit sweet, just seem to lack something that I can't quite pinpoint but which nevertheless prevents me from ranking them up with those two films. I've nothing against Pixar, and I appreciate that they try to tell stories instead of relying too much on jokes and pop culture like many CGI films do nowadays.

However, I still prefer Disney's animated movies (yes, even the likes of Home on the Range) to most Pixar films, because something "clicks" in Disney's films and yet I feel Pixar films could've been "better" than they ended up being. This of course goes to taste, but that's the general way I feel about Pixar. I'm glad, though, that Brad Bird managed to direct films for Pixar, because I feel he brought fresh air to the studio with The Incredibles.

[Jules]

You know MadonnasManOne, while reading your last post (addressing one of mine), I couldn't help realizing what a complex connected world of movie opinions and debatable facts we enter every time we bring up the subject of which film supersedes the other in quality. Thing is, it practically works psychologically. When I was typing my post, I was thoroughly convinced that BatB is overrated, though it boasts tons and tons of merits (to put it mildly ). On reading your post, I am almost instantaneously influenced by what you write and subsequently wonder whether I should eat my words regarding BatB or if I might change my mind, and I almost do. This may seem like pretty random blabber in a thread in which we are supposed to be discussing Pixar, but I think it's important because it proves how easily the human mind is manipulated, and how briskly your opinions may change.

Hence, are my opinions my genuine feelings or the residue left off stuff I read? It's really quite complicated, and I don't really feel I've explained myself well in the above paragraph. Oh well ... I'm not even sure if I even knew what I was leading up to while writing.

I'm very glad that you are trying hard not to dislike Pixar because of jealousy. That's great.

It does take a bit of effort seeing as I am fonder of WDFA, and have never really been tickled and dazzled by Pixar as much as I'd like. But I'm really trying to narrow the rift in my mind between the two studios. I've gone as far as to integrate the Pixar features into my Walt Disney Classics, placing them chornologically on the shelf among the latter group. They look good.

[Simba3]

I personally am a big fan of the Pixar films. I associate these movies with Disney, to an extent, but I sort of consider them in a class of their own as well. I think all of the Pixar films, up until Cars, are exceptional animated films. As I have said many times before, I think Cars was incredibly flawed in many different areas, but of course, that is just my personal opinion. That being said, I thoroughly enjoy the first 6 Pixar films. As I have seen in this forum, many members here have different opinions of all the Pixar films. Sure, I enjoy some more than others, but I feel that the first 6 were all great films and every bit deserving of their success and fan followings.

After Pixar's worst film by far, Cars (again, just my opinion) they released Ratatouille which I found enjoyable. It was not my favorite Pixar film to date, but I thought it was a HUGE improvement from Cars. I am looking forward to seeing how next summer's Wall-E will turn out.

[candydog]

I thought about this, and decided to look more at the bigger picture. Pixar movies have only been released during the last 12 years. Disney movies have been released for the past 70 years. Now Disney have built up a 70-year-old reputation for excellent movies, some aren't as good as others, but overall, Disney movies are generally excepted to be the among the best family movies in existence. The Disney empire is more than just movies though, it's got an air of magic about it that no other franchise has. I know that Pixar is part of Disney, but it just isn't in the same ball park as Disney when you look at them in perspective.
Most critics will tear Disney apart and worship the ink they print with because they know the Disney standards. Disney has a reputation to live up to, so people are generally more harsh when they don't live up to that reputation.
Pixar movies are doing great, but they haven't built up the same reputation as Disney, so the critics often go a little easier on them, as do many people in general.

So just remember that although it may seem as though Pixar are outdoing Disney, in the scale of things, they actually have a long way to go.

[Chernabog_Rocks]

I think (heavy empthasis on Think) I have an idea as to why The Incredibles isn't considered "Adult" and yet the Hunchback was. The Hunchback came out in 1996, perhaps during the 90's it was conisdered a bit more adult than what audiences were used to from Disney. Now compare it to The Incredibles who came out...well I can't remember when it came out, but it came out much later than Hunchback so perhaps over those years the general audicence matured and changed their views on what is considered "adult" and what isn't?

Take what Julian Carter said for instance

This may seem like pretty random blabber in a thread in which we are supposed to be discussing Pixar, but I think it's important because it proves how easily the human mind is manipulated, and how briskly your opinions may change.

So I think it's possible that audiences opinions have changed and that may be a factor in this Debate.

[Disney's Divinity]

Ironically, John Lasseter once accused Disney's post-Lion King animated features as being formulaic, and Steve Jobs dissed Brother Bear and Treasure Planet as being unimaginative.

Formulatic? How is Pocahontas like Hunchback like Mulan. And they're the three films since then which are most alike. The only similarity I can see is Sidekicks - but that doesn't really apply to Pocahontas' animal non-speak sidekicks so much. And then there's films like Treasure Planet, Lilo and Stitch and The Emperor's New Groove. Creatively, it's one of Disney Animation's strong periods.

http://www.decentfilms.com/sections/articles/2569

Once you get past the introduction (which praises the Fab Four, etc. etc.), he brings up a lot of points about formulas in the Disney films of the 90s. It's an old article (just after Atlantis), but I enjoyed reading it.

Compare the cheezy 'I love you, daddy' moment in 'Mermaid' to 'Pinocchio', where the sentimentality is nicely displaced, mostly through comical scenes with Gepetto.

While I agree that Pinocchio is a far more successful film than The Little Mermaid in many respects(though the latter is still my favorite), the "I love you, daddy" moment is anything but cheesy. In fact, I think it was critical for the film as a whole, showing that the two still love each other through hell and high water.

And to say that a Pixar film is better than anything that's followed 101 Dalmatians is far from an overstatement. Personally, I find many of the older films far too cold. Around the middle of the Disney canon is where I think they got a balance. The Little Mermaid--The Lion King (and a couple before and after) lost the emotionless feeling of films like Bambi, but didn't create the same amount of sappiness as something like Brother Bear (which I find unbearable to watch around other people).