Disney Debates: #2 Are people too accepting of Pixar films?

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Disney Debates: #2 Are people too accepting of Pixar films?

Post by 2099net »

Please do not "shoot the messenger". Although my stance on some of the Pixar films is well known by regular forum readers, not all of these arguments reflect my own views. I am just putting them into the public domain for debate. I hope 'Bod doesn't mind me continuing with his idea for a series.

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Since the release of Toy Story in 1995, it appears the public and the press have fallen in love with Pixar. True, like any relationship between friends and lovers, there's been the odd quarrel (some of the critical reception of Cars was not as overwhelming as expected) but quickly followed by a "kiss and make up". It's not correct to say Pixar can do no wrong, but it seems any wrong doings are quickly forgiven.

Meanwhile, Walt Disney Feature Animation in the same years has taken a significant fall in the eyes of the public – with films such as Hunchback of Notre Dame receiving criticism for being "too adult", Atlantis: The Lost Empire for being "too experimental" (and is generally considered a failure), Brother Bear for being "too Disney" (?!?) and Treasure Planet being… actually I don't know what the criticism of Treasure Planet was, its reviews were generally favourable, but the public rejected it.

However, such criticisms of Pixar's output have been muted at the best. Most of Pixar's films have been "buddy movies", yet complaints that they are similar or "too Pixar" are few and far between. Meanwhile the media and public happily complain about Brother Bear being too similar to the Lion King when the two films are totally different narratively. If anything, Pixar's Finding Nemo has more such similarities (think about it).

If Hunchback of Notre Dame was too adult, wasn't The Incredibles too? After all that had a plot skirting around a form of genocide and also featured torture. If the public rejected the adventure/no songs nature of Disney's Atlantis and Treasure Planet, why did they not reject The Incredibles? Do you think if The Incredibles was exactly the same, but traditionally animated and fully credited to Walt Disney reception would be the same? Or do you think some pompus busy bodies would complain about the violence?

People also seem to have double standards when it comes to other matters. I've seen Home on the Range repeatedly bashed here for the "they're real" line, as has Chicken Little for a fart joke (which I can't even remember personally it made so much impact on me), but fart jokes in Pixar films Finding Nemo (the two birds on the sea observing the rising bubbles) and Toy Story 2 (Stinky Pete) are always ignored.

As many people will know, I'm of the opinion that Pixar (or more accurately Lasseter) have got lazy with their storytelling. This is apparent in Toy Story 2, Monsters, Inc., Finding Nemo and Cars to differing extents.

Example: Toy Story 2

Event wise, Toy Story 2 brought nothing to the table above and beyond the first Toy Story specifically –

"Buzz accidentally leaves the safety of the house" becomes "Woody accidentally leaves the safety of the house"
"Woody goes to rescue Buzz" becomes "Buzz goes to rescue Woody"
"Buzz finds about his fictional toy (TV advert)" becomes "Woody finds his fictional toy (Woody's Roundup)"
"There's a countdown until Sid sets off the rocket" becomes "There's a countdown until the Collector sells Woody "
"Buzz doesn't want to be rescued" becomes "Woody doesn't want to be rescued" (Both have to be talked into their true value as a toy plaything giving pleasure to children.)
"The Race to get on the removal truck" becomes "The race to get Woody off the plane"


Admittedly, Pixar do a better than average job on some of the emotion behind the thread-bare plotting, but if this was a Disney direct-to-video sequel, it would be easily dismissed by people as being nothing more than a "retread of the original" with the "traditional Disney sequel plot flip-flop elements".

Pixar also benefited from being granted a huge production budget, much more than any Disney-Toon production, direct-to-video or for theatrical release ever had.

Not that that matters… I predict if Roger Allers and Rob Minkoff got together with WDFA and produced a top of the range Lion King theatrical sequel with no expenses spared, showcase animation and catchy Rice/John songs, but with a plot that mirrored their original so closely, the press and public would quickly turn on them and the film itself.

Disney's direct-to-video division improves it's product tremendously – be it Bambi II or Lilo and Stitch 2: Stitch has a Glitch which do try to be more than just "flip flops" of the originals, and people still complain. Kronk's New Groove which absolutely took anything but easy option of more animal transformation "hilarity" and delivered something totally original – and people still complain.

It seems no matter what Disney does, it can't get any breaks. Even now, its almost as if the press and public can't accept Disney has actually made "a half decent" film in Meet the Robinsons with both Disney PR and the media in general keen to play up John Lasseter's involvement. I'm not saying Lasseter did or didn't have a major influence on how the final film turned out – but it seems wrong to credit everything to one man – which is basically what has happened.

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Post by Poody »

Totally agree.... I do think people are getting tired of the Pixar films though. I've been telling people about Enchanted, Repunzel, and Princess and the Frog and they seem VERY interested.
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Post by Lars Vermundsberget »

Pixar started out with high-tech while still seeming simple and fresh compared to the contemporary Disney works. Not until recently have they become old enough to perhaps start seeming slightly tired.
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Post by BrandonH »

Pixar has made 8 animated feature films that hold up well to repeated viewings. I don't think people are too accepting of them. We should always welcome the best movies with open arms.

I think the issue is more that Disney animation has been unfairly judged since the time of The Lion King. They have been more experimental, and that has turned some people off, but they have put out some excellent animated movies since 1994.
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Post by BelleGirl »

Never thought of the comparison between Toy Story and Toy Story 2 that way, but now these points are mentioned... well , I still like both movies.

But even as great progressions are made in CGI, it still has big limitations in animation possiblities compared to the 'old-fashioned' hand drawn animation. A movie like Ratatouille still looks a bit 'plastic'. I can imagine this story being made in the traditional '2d-style' and still be as charming. On the other hand, any of the Disney traditionaly animated classics would look ugly in CGI and wouldn't work.
But I understand that Rapunzel is going to be CGI, yet looking more like an oil painting come to life?

I do feel that lot of professional critics and great part of the audience have been unduly harsh in their critisism of Disney movie offering form 1995 onwards, as if they suddenly decided not to like any of them. Though I'm myself dissapointed in movies like Atlantis and Brother Bear I do not see any big drop in quality (well Hercules I like less, but it's still entertaining, I think) in the second half of the nineties.
Yet, how often do I see it stated that "Disney hasn't done anything decent since Aladdin" ? Excuse me??? :?
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Re: Disney Debates: #2 Are people too accepting of Pixar fil

Post by Jules »

2099net wrote:...but fart jokes in Pixar films Finding Nemo (the two birds on the sea observing the rising bubbles) and Toy Story 2 (Stinky Pete) are always ignored.
I don't mean to change the subject in favour of trivial matters, Netty, (and I will certainly be coming back to this thread with something more meaty) but I have just bought and watched Toy Story 2 on the Region 2 UK DVD, and although I remembered there being a Stinky Pete fart joke, it never appeared on my DVD. Has something been cut from the UK DVD release? :?

On the other hand, your arguments make a lot of sense. I mostly get worked up when Disney, as you said, get bashed for stuff Pixar seem to get away with. I respect Pixar, but strangely, I've always preferred the product from Walt Disney Feature Animation. I won't deny that Pixar make very good films, but yes, they are formulaic. Ironically, John Lasseter once accused Disney's post-Lion King animated features as being formulaic, and Steve Jobs dissed Brother Bear and Treasure Planet as being unimaginative. Although I love A Bug's Life, I am never impresssed with Finding Nemo, which I just watched. I think it is the weakest Pixar film, with a flaccid storyline driving a feature film and not very likeable protagonists. Dory is the exception, and she saves the film with her witty dialogue and truly funny persona. I'll just say one thing to Steve Jobs, however: I'd choose to watch Brother Bear over Finding Nemo any day. At least the former has charm.

Finally, although I certainly don't dislike Toy Story, I just can't swallow the fact of it being considered a masterpiece. I believe on a list of the 100 greatest American movies of all time, it's one of two animated films included, the other being Snow White. Are these guys saying that Toy Story beats Pinocchio, Fantasia, Bambi, Little Mermaid and The Lion King? tsk tsk ... there just isn't justice in this world.
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Re: Disney Debates: #2 Are people too accepting of Pixar fil

Post by 2099net »

Julian Carter wrote:
2099net wrote:...but fart jokes in Pixar films Finding Nemo (the two birds on the sea observing the rising bubbles) and Toy Story 2 (Stinky Pete) are always ignored.
I don't mean to change the subject in favour of trivial matters, Netty, (and I will certainly be coming back to this thread with something more meaty) but I have just bought and watched Toy Story 2 on the Region 2 UK DVD, and although I remembered there being a Stinky Pete fart joke, it never appeared on my DVD. Has something been cut from the UK DVD release? :?
Not that I'm aware of, but to be honest I've only watched my Ultimate Toybox edition which is US. I have the UK re-release of Toy Story 2 so I may give it a spin in the next few days.
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Re: Disney Debates: #2 Are people too accepting of Pixar fil

Post by 2099net »

Julian Carter wrote:Ironically, John Lasseter once accused Disney's post-Lion King animated features as being formulaic, and Steve Jobs dissed Brother Bear and Treasure Planet as being unimaginative.
Formulatic? How is Pocahontas like Hunchback like Mulan. And they're the three films since then which are most alike. The only similarity I can see is Sidekicks - but that doesn't really apply to Pocahontas' animal non-speak sidekicks so much. And then there's films like Treasure Planet, Lilo and Stitch and The Emperor's New Groove. Creatively, it's one of Disney Animation's strong periods.

My personal bug bear is the unfair reviews Brother Bear got, with the majority comparing it to The Lion King. It's nothing like the Lion King. Do reviewers even watch what they are reviewing or just look at the pretty pictures? Its a downright lie to say Brother Bear is a copy of The Lion King and it reflects the typically lazy approach of the media and press towards Disney while at the same time they bent over backwards to praise Pixar.

Like I say, Finding Nemo is more like The Lion King than Brother Bear

* 2099net Feels better now that rant is out of his system *
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Post by BelleGirl »

BrandonH wrote:
I think the issue is more that Disney animation has been unfairly judged since the time of The Lion King. They have been more experimental, and that has turned some people off, but they have put out some excellent animated movies since 1994.
You would think that the audience would welcome a change in tone and different story ideas, but what they seemingly want is more of the same. A movie like Pocahontas was labelled a dissapointment for instance, not because it was really bad (underrated IMO) but because it was nothing like Aladdin.
Disney just should go on experimenting, in the long run they will be appriciated for it.
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Post by MadonnasManOne »

Opinions are just that, opinions. However, the overwhelming majority of those who view Pixar films, really like them, and consider them to be great films. I disagree that Pixar, or John Lasseter, have become tired, or lazy. That's a bunch of nonsense.

I think the REAL issue is that there are those, particularly on this board, who are extremely dedicated to Disney, and see Pixar (even though it is now part of Disney), as Disney's competition. They do not want to see Disney as being anything less than perfect, and therefore do not want to see another company doing, or being perceived as doing, better than Disney.

In my opinion, Disney hasn't made a great animated film in a while. That's not to say that they won't, but, it's been a while. Chicken Little just didn't work. Meet the Robinsons was an improvement, but, that middle act really brought the whole film down. I'm not saying that the animation wasn't good. I'm saying that the story wasn't. Chicken Little suffered horribly from it, and Meet the Robinsons middle act did, as well. It's as though they can't keep their focus, and it all becomes too hectic. I am holding out hope for Enchanted (granted, it's not all animated). I'm actually very excited by that one. I'm all for Disney getting back to their roots, and making great animated films. They have made so many that I love, and my collection of DVD's is full of Disney films.

Pixar, on the other hand, has the storytelling at the heart of the film, and build the animation around it. You can always tell that Pixar works very hard on the story. It seems to me that they get it right, every single time. I have enjoyed every film they have created. There isn't one that has disappointed me. That's not to say that I will love every film they ever create, however, their record stands at 100%, for me. That doesn't mean I'm too accepting of Pixar, or not able to see faults. It's just that I haven't found anything that I consider to be a fault.

I do feel, however, that there are some who feel jealous of Pixar's success. Jealousy sometimes blinds people, and they do not want to actually accept that what they are jealous of, might actually be good. I think that has a lot to do with some of the feelings posted against Pixar, in this thread, and on this board.
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Post by BelleGirl »

To be honest, I was dissapointed in most of the post-2000 offerings from Disney, but some of the second half of the nineties were judged unfairly harsh IMO.

I'm a Disney fan, but not an uncritical one. I'm not blind to the fact that Disney has underperformed with their last outings.
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Post by 2099net »

But MM1, my main point of this thread is "are the public more accepting" not so much are Pixar better or worse films.

For example.

Why is Hunchback too adult, but The Incredibles not? The latter is considerably dark - which ever way you look at it, its about mass murder at best or a form of genocide at worst. Mr Incredible gets tortured. There's even some not so subtle "nudge nudge, wink winks" regarding sex and Elastigirl. Hunchback has a song - Hellfire, which is much more likely to have the sexual content go over the top of an innocent's head (and also has a similar theme of loosely defined genocide).

So why is that? If The Incredibles was 100% Disney and animated by hand - but with the exact same script, would the public have been just as accepting, or would they have complained? Would the Disney name have affected how people reacted to it. Does the Pixar name affect how people react to it? Would there be complains it was "Too violent"? "Not a Disney film"? "I took my 3 year old to see this"? etc.

Now it could just be the gap between releases. It could be The Incredibles is more fantastical than Hunchback. It could be people didn't think the script for The Incredibles was as dark. Or it could be double standards.

Which do you think? There is no right or wrong answer, and its a debate. I have my views and you may be surprised but I don't think its double standards (well, I do slightly, but not mainly).
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Post by Widdi »

My dislike of Pixar movies comes from my dislike of all CGI animation. I don't know exactly why I hate it so much I just do. I'm turned off by it immediately. They story has to be really enthralling for me to sit through a CGI film, and I find myself many times simply listening to the films rather than watching them.

I do believe pixar doesn't have as much originality as people claim they do. All their movies are buddy/fish out of water type films with the setting modified. They all follow pretty much the same plot line and all have happy endings. It's pretty "blah" to me.

I am not a Disney 2d devotee either. There are MANY 2d films produced by Disney that I do not like, and in general, my favourite movies are the ones that are not so cookie cutter (Hunchback, Pocahontas, Hercules, Atlantis), and I have a real dislike of the Lion King (another overpraised movie).
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Post by blackcauldron85 »

MadonnasManOne wrote: I have enjoyed every film they have created. There isn't one that has disappointed me.
Me, too- for both WDFA & Pixar. I love Disney more, but I've enjoyed all of Pixar's movies.

MadonnasManOne wrote: I think the REAL issue is that there are those, particularly on this board, who are extremely dedicated to Disney, and see Pixar (even though it is now part of Disney), as Disney's competition. They do not want to see Disney as being anything less than perfect, and therefore do not want to see another company doing, or being perceived as doing, better than Disney.
I'm in this camp. As I said, I do enjoy Pixar films. I prefer 2D animation over CGI anyday (but I do love "Dinosaur", "Chicken Little", and "Meet the Robinsons"). It's just hard when everyone praises Pixar and not many people praise Disney. I've loved all of Disney's movies (hello- my favorite movie was a flop...!), and it just hurts, when Disney works so hard...not that Pixar doesn't work hard. I've just always loved Disney.
2099net wrote:So why is that? If The Incredibles was 100% Disney and animated by hand - but with the exact same script, would the public have been just as accepting, or would they have complained?
I think that people would complain if "The Incredibles" was all Disney. But would Disney have made "The Incredibles" without Pixar- after all, it was Brad Bird's creation. I think that people think that Pixar is more quirky/not as classic/not as kid-friendly as Disney, since Disney is Disney- they've been known for 80+ years to provide safe, quality, family-friendly movies, shows, and shorts. I don't know why people dump on "Brother Bear"- it's an amazing movie. THoND is a more adult movie, due to the themes. The source material seems a bit odd for a Disney movie, but it made for a different and great film.
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Post by 2099net »

blackcauldron85 wrote:
2099net wrote:So why is that? If The Incredibles was 100% Disney and animated by hand - but with the exact same script, would the public have been just as accepting, or would they have complained?
I think that people would complain if "The Incredibles" was all Disney. But would Disney have made "The Incredibles" without Pixar- after all, it was Brad Bird's creation. I think that people think that Pixar is more quirky/not as classic/not as kid-friendly as Disney, since Disney is Disney- they've been known for 80+ years to provide safe, quality, family-friendly movies, shows, and shorts. I don't know why people dump on "Brother Bear"- it's an amazing movie. THoND is a more adult movie, due to the themes. The source material seems a bit odd for a Disney movie, but it made for a different and great film.
I'm not disagreeing with you, but when did Disney get this reputation for being "kid friendly". Snow White and Pinocchio for example can be very disturbing for younger viewers. Why did Disney's image morph into being "kid friendly". Is it fair Disney Animation is now stuck with this image in most people's eyes, but Pixar is not? It narrows the films it can successfully release.

Or do others feel Disney Animation has no such reputation. After all, Disney live action can release the Pirates of the Caribbean films with out mass parental protests.
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Post by Jules »

MadonnasManOne wrote:I think the REAL issue is that there are those, particularly on this board, who are extremely dedicated to Disney, and see Pixar (even though it is now part of Disney), as Disney's competition. They do not want to see Disney as being anything less than perfect, and therefore do not want to see another company doing, or being perceived as doing, better than Disney.
Actually, I'm making a humongous effort to not be like that. Read through my first post again, and note that I mention the fact that I respect Pixar (I even say that I love A Bug's Life ... I really do, honest!). However, I think their films are overrated, and I wish Disney would get some praise too where it is due. I am an avid Disney supporter, and usually hate to see horrible critics' remarks regarding their films. Yes, even for stuff liek Chicken Little*.

*And for the record, although I recognize CL's faults, I can boldly say that I really enjoy seeing the film.
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Post by Ariel'sprince »

Agreed,most people who are non Disney and animation fans thinks that Pixars movies and new CGI movies are "more adult" then Disney classic animated films but those are just nonsense,a movie about a bunch of talking animales who finds out about the true meaning of friendship with fart jokes and etc. is not "adult" then real movies who respect themselfs,were a hard work and movies that will be remembered forever (people will allways remember Cinderella or The Lion King but who will remember Madagscar or Ice Age 50 years later?) but still,this is about all the CGI movies.
Anyway back to Pixar-people love them and prefer them,it's only that-"Disney riped-off anime shows and movies!?!? (Atlantis,Lion King,etc.) shame on them!!! but Pixar with The Incredibles,the wanabe Fantastic Four? oh that's okay,they can rip-off anything they want,even every superhero that was made and we'll forgive them!",oh please :roll: .
I agree,i think Pixar movies are way overrated,don't get my worng,i love Pixar movies and enjoyed every film of them,my favorite are Finding Nemo and Ratatouille but still,they a bit overrated.
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Post by MadonnasManOne »

2099net wrote:But MM1, my main point of this thread is "are the public more accepting" not so much are Pixar better or worse films.

For example.

Why is Hunchback too adult, but The Incredibles not? The latter is considerably dark - which ever way you look at it, its about mass murder at best or a form of genocide at worst. Mr Incredible gets tortured. There's even some not so subtle "nudge nudge, wink winks" regarding sex and Elastigirl. Hunchback has a song - Hellfire, which is much more likely to have the sexual content go over the top of an innocent's head (and also has a similar theme of loosely defined genocide).

So why is that? If The Incredibles was 100% Disney and animated by hand - but with the exact same script, would the public have been just as accepting, or would they have complained? Would the Disney name have affected how people reacted to it. Does the Pixar name affect how people react to it? Would there be complains it was "Too violent"? "Not a Disney film"? "I took my 3 year old to see this"? etc.

Now it could just be the gap between releases. It could be The Incredibles is more fantastical than Hunchback. It could be people didn't think the script for The Incredibles was as dark. Or it could be double standards.

Which do you think? There is no right or wrong answer, and its a debate. I have my views and you may be surprised but I don't think its double standards (well, I do slightly, but not mainly).
I think that, if people are more accepting of Pixar films, it's because they enjoy them. I mean, there has to be something about them, if people enjoy them. Does that mean people are more accepting, because it is Pixar? I don't think so. I just think that they know that it is a Pixar film, know that Pixar films have provided quality entertainment since Toy Story first came onto the scene, and are willing to continue to watch Pixar films, because they have enjoyed those that have been released since. I do think that, because Cars (although I really enjoyed it) was not as universally accepted as previous Pixar films, it took a bit of a toll on the domestic Box Office totals of Ratatouille. Ratatouille still holds as the best reviewed film of the year (as evidenced at RottenTomatoes.com), yet, the film hasn't managed to overtake the domestic Box Office of Cars. I feel that Ratatouille has a better story than Cars.

As far as your question of The Incredibles, I can't say. The fact is, Disney didn't make it, and it wasn't hand drawn. I feel that The Incredibles really wouldn't work as hand drawn animation. Otherwise, I am sure that Brad Bird would have made it that way. If Disney, not Pixar, had made The Incredibles, as it were, I think it would have done just as well. I believe the biggest appeal of The Incredibles is that it is a much more adult themed film. There are things in it that children and adults both enjoy, but, it does tend to be more adult themed. That's fine. I don't think anyone would have faulted Disney, if it were made by them. I think that The Incredibles is a very smart film, and I think that's why it did so well.

As far as The Hunchback of Notre Dame, I don't believe it is too adult, as much as it was more the tone of the film. The overall tone of The Hunchback of Notre Dame was darker than say, The Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, or Aladdin, for example. That's not just in story or in song. The style of the film was also darker, in my opinion. However, that doesn't make it a bad film. I actually enjoy it, a great deal. I'm a fan of almost everything Disney has done, up through, yes, get this....Home on the Range. I think that Brother Bear and Home on the Range got unfair receptions, and I truly enjoy them. I wasn't expecting to enjoy Home on the Range, and I found myself really loving it. I know I stand in the minority on that one, but, that's okay. I really enjoyed it. Dinosaur is another film that I enjoyed greatly, and I don't understand those that cast it aside.

It's really Disney's last two animated films that haven't set right, with me. Chicken Little just didn't do it, at all, for me. Meet the Robinsons was a good first act, a horrible middle act, and a good final act. In fact, if it weren't for that incredibly A.D.D. middle section of the film, I would have picked up Meet the Robinsons on DVD, day of release. As it is, I'll eventually add it to my collection, which also includes Chicken Little (although I'm likely to never watch it, again). I'll be quite honest...if Pixar had made either of those two films, I would be very disappointed in them.

So, that's all I can really say. I know there is no right, or wrong. We each have our own opinions, and we all won't like the same things. If we did, life would eventually become very boring! :D
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Post by MadonnasManOne »

Those of you, who are saying that Pixar films are overrated....I have a question for you? How would you like it if I said that Disney films are overrated? I mean, after all, they have created some of the most beloved films of all time. People have an eternal love for the "classic" Disney films. Does that make them overrated? I don't think so. Then, it is not fair to call Pixar films overrated. In the grand scheme of things, when you are saying something is overrated, you are saying that something is not worthy of being loved, praised, or enjoyed. I hate the word overrated. It's snide, it's rude, and it is insulting to those who enjoy what others are calling overrated.

Rant over.
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Post by Ariel'sprince »

MadonnasManOne wrote:Those of you, who are saying that Pixar films are overrated....I have a question for you? How would you like it if I said that Disney films are overrated? I mean, after all, they have created some of the most beloved films of all time. People have an eternal love for the "classic" Disney films. Does that make them overrated? I don't think so. Then, it is not fair to call Pixar films overrated. In the grand scheme of things, when you are saying something is overrated, you are saying that something is not worthy of being loved, praised, or enjoyed. I hate the word overrated. It's snide, it's rude, and it is insulting to those who enjoy what others are calling overrated.

Rant over.
I"m more talking about the fact that some people find it and more CGI movies more adult then Disney but exept this i don't anything againts Pixar,i love Pixar but still.
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