Batman [Begins] 2: 2 Villains

[The Little Merboy]

Anna Faris would be great too, but why would Lindy be horrible? I think that, if you've seen her as a blonde, her look is perfect (Lindy is gorgeous, but to each his own, and I hadn't thought of Anna but she might be an even better choice, I'll admit, and she's also a fave girl of mine).

I think they would need to cast a funny girl, a'la Jenny McCarthy. Someone who possesses that Harley insane humor/spunk. In my opinion, Isla Fisher would be a better choice than Lindy, I don't think Lindy has what it takes. The role would need someone who can come off serious and dark, but also have a amazing sense of humor who can make you laugh your butt off.

[slave2moonlight]

I think they would need to cast a funny girl, a'la Jenny McCarthy. Someone who possesses that Harley insane humor/spunk. In my opinion, Isla Fisher would be a better choice than Lindy, I don't think Lindy has what it takes. The role would need someone who can come off serious and dark, but also have a amazing sense of humor who can make you laugh your butt off.

Well, I've never seen Lindy in a role of that nature, so I'd be willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. However, I actually like the idea of Anna Faris the best, and more than Isla Fisher. Isla is my choice for Poison Ivy at the moment. I don't know if she can act, but I could also see Fergie from the Black Eyed Peas as Ivy or Catwoman, though she probably can't act and I'm not sure if she has the right kind of body for Catwoman. But I could see Lindy as Catwoman too.

[2099net]

The movie was loaded with Bruce Wayne angst and fear. As has been said before, that was the whole subject of the movie, especially his concern with disappointing his parents. This is shown in so many ways, and if you didn't catch them, you really need to watch it again.

Yes, it was shown, but being as this path was taken, and the Scarecrow was one of the villains, it seems pure madness not to exploit that. I mean, its the perfect synergy between both the "A" and "B" plots. But we got nothing, apart from a few bats coming out of the scarecrow's mouth and a bit of a wobble with a fire or something. Masterful use of the Scarecrow (yes, that last bit was sarcasm).

[Siren]

Jenny McCarthy, I dunno. Part of me says she can do it and the other part is afraid she'd ruin it. I haven't seen much of her acting. I mostly remember her from her raunchy MTV days. Most of me says she may just be good for the part.

I do feel the best Joker ever was Mark Hamill. His voice work was so superb and perfect that anyone else, live action or animated has yet to impress me.

[slave2moonlight]

Yes, it was shown, but being as this path was taken, and the Scarecrow was one of the villains, it seems pure madness not to exploit that. I mean, its the perfect synergy between both the "A" and "B" plots. But we got nothing, apart from a few bats coming out of the scarecrow's mouth and a bit of a wobble with a fire or something. Masterful use of the Scarecrow (yes, that last bit was sarcasm).

While I would love to see more (and more threatening) use of the Scarecrow, I saw this as the Scarecrow just getting his start, much as we were seeing Batman just get his start. Considering that, having Ras Al Guhl as the more experienced and dangerous heavy makes sense.

[Kossage]

I can see how the music could have been more memorable, but it does its job and doesn't take on a life of its own, so it's just another way to go. I remember reading that in "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade" they played down the "Raiders March" a bit from its use in "Temple." Those identifiable themes can turn the characters into a bit more of cartoon characters, and Nolan's Batman is aiming at a more realistic style. Giving him this theme song (so to speak) that we all think of when we see him will make him less human.

That's an interesting point of view and I understand what you're aiming at, but I'll have to disagree with you on this.

Yes, I agree that the music does its job in many scenes. The two-note "theme" for Batman is actually quite thrilling in certain action scenes, and I understand Zimmer and Newton-Howard's tactic of using it as a "pre-theme" for Batman, because the guy is just starting out his career as the caped crusader. It's just that I would've wanted the composers to take the route David Arnold did in Casino Royale; that is, creating a pre-theme which is relatively complex and which can be used as a foundation for the actual theme to come.

I'm not sure whether the tender theme for piano was Zimmer or Newton-Howard's idea, but it was quite suitable in the scenes where Bruce remembers his past and when some sad scenes take place. This "remembrance theme" was more memorable and more interesting as a theme than the two-note action stuff for Batman himself.

The stuff you said about the Raiders theme refers to its use as tracked music in the movie, and that whole "tracked music" approach is the kind of stuff that I don't particularly like in movies (that is, using music from one movie in another). For example, George Lucas has done this in many of his Star Wars movies, particularly in the Prequel Trilogy (e.g. quite a few bits from the arena battle music in Episode 2 were tracked from Episode 1, and Anakin landing the cruiser in Episode 3 was tracked from Episode 1, to give you some examples). I think the whole tracked music approach is a shame, because it neglects the composer's original version (which is better suited to the scene anyway, because it was composed for that scene) and makes the score seem like a hack'n'slash job.

And as for the use of "identifiable themes", I think they are necessary particularly in larger-than-life movies which epics, superhero movies and the like often tend to be. I like hearing themes for characters, objects, ideas, locations etc. in movies. This kind of leitmotivic approach is important because it helps the music tell the story alongside the movie itself, both complementing one another. Part of the stuff that makes movies like Star Wars and Lord of the Rings memorable is their use of various themes, many of which are quite memorable. The proper use of themes can help the story in various ways such as identifying characters, showing how the characters develop as the themes themselves develop (like we saw in LotR trilogy, particularly its use of the "Fellowship theme"), hinting at things to come (like the great use of "The Imperial March" in "Anakin's Theme" in Episode 1 to show what he'll become) and bringing forth emotions which further enhance the feel of the movie and make us perceive the characters better (part of the reason the tragic scenes in BB were touching was because of the music and particularly that certain sad theme which was played in the background).

In my opinion movies like Batman Begins do need an identifiable theme (preferably more than one; the antagonists do need some kind of themes as well to act as coutnerpoint for the hero's theme, and themes for other characters, ideas etc. would be welcome as well). If done in a corny way I can see how they might make the characters cartoonish, but if they're done in a certain epic and yet human way they show musically what the characters are about, help us establish their presence when they're on screen and also give us a way to live the story through the music (e.g. it's quite easy to know what's happening by just listening to the Star Wars Original Trilogy scores without watching the movie, because the music itself can tell the story): essentially they support the movie and make it more enjoyable.

Superhero movies are really on a league of their own when it comes to the use of themes, and despite the realistic setting there's still the whole history of Batman music not to mention the whole superhero angle (no matter how twisted a superhero Batman is), and that in itself cries out for proper theme(s). No matter how much one looks at it, Batman does deserve more than a two-note theme; despite the realistic take he still becomes a heroic character and thus requires an identifiable theme. He deliberately chooses a symbol of a bat to become more than human in the eyes of criminals, and this is also another reason why Batman deserves a theme to truly show us music-wise what he is. And of course there's the angle of utilizing softer variations of a theme to portray the more human aspect of Bruce Wayne etc. because not every theme has to be a heroic one.

Thankfully Zimmer and Newton-Howard seem to be taking a step into the right direction, because they deliberately introduced an actual theme for Batman at the end of the movie when Batman truly establishes himself as the protector of Gotham (dunno how much they're going to flesh that theme out in the sequel, though, but it'll be interesting to see how things end up music-wise). I'm curious of finding out what kind of a score Zimmer and Newton-Howard compose for the coming sequel, and I hope that it supports the movie better than the score of BB did.

I hope this didn't come out as hostile, because that wasn't my intention. I'm simply trying to say what I think of the subject of music in Batman movies and how important I think the use of leitmotifs is in these kinds of movies.

[The Little Merman]

http://whysoserious.com/





How intruiging! Apparently the plot includes some type of a "Joker army". Heath sounds perfect in the teaser.

[2099net]

Don't even get me started on THAT Joker. Ask Loomis if you want to know how that turned out last time.

[Super Aurora]

Quality is better than quantity when it comes to villians.

Maybe Dent will be built up and Two-Face will be saved for the 3rd film?

This is what I'm hoping. Bruce Timm's The Batman Animated series played this perfectly well.

Um...? Batman Begins: Rahs Al Gul, Falcony, Scarecrow, and a cameo by that murderer dude. Need I say more?

The murderer dude is Mr. Zsasz, who imo from the comic, arguebaly one of the greatest Batman villians I've read.

As for Ra's Al Ghul, I felt little disappoint with. The movie it's self was great but they shouldn't use Ra's Al Ghul. Animated Series played that better.

let's face it, Two-Face is similar to the Joker in the first place too.

Not really. Only similar thing both have in common is that they both got affect by some chemical freak accident that made them warped. personally and character wise, no.

However, I can see this being interesting in this movie as Joker being some sort of cause to Harvey Dent's demise into becoming Two Face. Because Harvey have a psychological disorder or MPD, Joker is perfect predator to "unlock" it.

I find Harvy Dent (especially in the Animted Series) be one of the coolest and developed characters.

I do feel the best Joker ever was Mark Hamill. His voice work was so superb and perfect that anyone else, live action or animated has yet to impress me.

The Animated Series itself, is probably the best made. When you have team that fixed up Mr. Freeze's, and Mad Hatter's story from it original comic origin. You're doing something excellent.

[2099net]

let's face it, Two-Face is similar to the Joker in the first place too.

Not really. Only similar thing both have in common is that they both got affect by some chemical freak accident that made them warped. personally and character wise, no.

I still think that they are similar - their origins are pretty similar (no matter which variation you choose). Both were circumstances to misfortune not under their control while doing their "Job", both were permemently scarred and both took on a personality "created" by their scars.

I use quotes around created, because recently (since the mid-80's) there's been retroactive continuity that Dent was on the verge of mental breakdown (or indeed had already had one) before his scarring but all that is just gravy added as an afterthought. The same was done to The Joker in "The Killing Joke" which made the pre-Joker joker a struggling comedian who was somewhat forced into being a shill for a robbery by circumstance rather than the career criminal he was in the 50's original "Man in the Red Hood" on which that aspect of "The Killing Joke" was based.

Additionally, both The Joker and Two-Face normally perform some sort of "Themed" crime (although this could be said about most of Batman's iconic rogues).

[Super Aurora]

Not really. Only similar thing both have in common is that they both got affect by some chemical freak accident that made them warped. personally and character wise, no.

I still think that they are similar - their origins are pretty similar (no matter which variation you choose). Both were circumstances to misfortune not under their control while doing their "Job", both were permemently scarred and both took on a personality "created" by their scars.

I use quotes around created, because recently (since the mid-80's) there's been retroactive continuity that Dent was on the verge of mental breakdown (or indeed had already had one) before his scarring but all that is just gravy added as an afterthought. The same was done to The Joker in "The Killing Joke" which made the pre-Joker joker a struggling comedian who was somewhat forced into being a shill for a robbery by circumstance rather than the career criminal he was in the 50's original "Man in the Red Hood" on which that aspect of "The Killing Joke" was based.

Additionally, both The Joker and Two-Face normally perform some sort of "Themed" crime (although this could be said about most of Batman's iconic rogues).

If that's the case, then you could say the same for Clayface, Man-Bat etc are also the same.

[2099net]

Not really. There's been so many Clayfaces, I'm not 100% knowlegable about them all, but the only one who could possibly be considered similar to Joker and/or Two-Face is the 1st - the one who was a normal theatrical actor who didn't have any shape-changing ability.

But the more modern Clayfaces have a totally different motive, origin and ability to Joker/Two Face. Same with Man-Bat, who is basically just an animal when transformed and only motivation is survival.

But let's face it, both Joker and Two-Face become, in effect, Crime lords, with hired goons which they rule by fear, both share similar motivations (both shun money apart from a means to an end, both wish to impress their twisted understanding of the world on other - The Joker the random and comical nature of life/death and Two-Face the importance of chance and duality which are in themselves both pretty similar) and both use "themed" crimes to do it. And as stated, both's origins and physical structures are similar.

I can understand why they may opt for Joker and Two Face - both are more "realistic" than most other Batman villains, and the tone of the films is realism (notice no mention of the Lazarus pit for example with Al Ghoul). I just think its a mistake, unless the character of one or both is drastically reworked (which could happen).

[Super Aurora]

Not really. There's been so many Clayfaces, I'm not 100% knowlegable about them all, but the only one who could possibly be considered similar to Joker and/or Two-Face is the 1st - the one who was a normal theatrical actor who didn't have any shape-changing ability.

That was the one I'm referring to. And there only been two Clayfaces. The first one who I'm referring to.

Same with Man-Bat, who is basically just an animal when transformed and only motivation is survival.

the chemical is a drug he took which affected his job hence referring back to what you said eariler.

both share similar motivations (both shun money apart from a means to an end, both wish to impress their twisted understanding of the world on other - The Joker the random and comical nature of life/death and Two-Face the importance of chance and duality which are in themselves both pretty similar) and both use "themed" crimes to do it. And as stated, both's origins and physical structures are similar.

I'll give you that but then again you could say alot of batman villians are similar to one another by that content.

I can understand why they may opt for Joker and Two Face - both are more "realistic" than most other Batman villains, and the tone of the films is realism (notice no mention of the Lazarus pit for example with Al Ghoul). I just think its a mistake, unless the character of one or both is drastically reworked (which could happen).

The lack of Lazarus pit or Tesla made me sad

[2099net]

No, there's been more than two Clayfaces, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clayface

And it doesn't matter if you can say most Batman villains are similar or not. It still makes it a mistake to go from one in one film to another in another film with almost identical motives and methods.

[azul017]

Shh, don't tell the WB, but this website has a bunch of leaked stills from The Dark Knight. In short, it gives everyone a much better view of the Joker, shows a better angle of Bats in his new suit, and confirms that Cillian Murphy is back as Jonathan Crane/Scarecrow.

The WB found out about the leak yesterday and they went ballistic, giving every fan site within reach a cease-and-desist letter to take the pics down. But this is going to stir more anticipation for the movie, so I can't see that being a bad thing for the WB.

[Disney-Fan]

YEAH for Scarecrow! That was my favorite character from the previous movie, besides Batman/Bruce. I am so excited for this movie at this point, I don't know what I'm gonna do with myself for the next year!

[Anthony]

Awesome pics! Thanks for posting!

Heath Ledger looks awesome!

[Siren]

New pics just released!







Love the poster....simple, but effective. Still unsure about Heath as Joker. He looks totally nuts, but not sure if his acting can capture the Joker's soul.

[I Love Bambi]

Joker looks...scary. It looks great, can't wait for it to come out.

[Super Aurora]

Awesome offical poster.

I'm not too keen on this Joker yet. It looks like they basing Joker off the Frank Miller one who is a serious nutcase. I find the zany/comedic serial killer a better choice. I mean it seems more threaten when you have a guy kill someone into a laughing joke rather a thriller type killing(with eerieness)