Batman [Begins] 2: 2 Villains

[Timon/Pumbaa fan]

Don't get me wrong, I loved <i>Batman Begins</i>, but there was too much conflict going on and none of it was explored in enough depth. I don't know why they couldn't just step up and say "Okay, Scarecrow's our villain in this movie, and we're going to go with that."

-Aaron

Because Liam Neeson's Henri Duccard blows away all those other villians and is the best Batman villian ever adapted on screen?

Anyways, with the great Christopher Nolan back, and BB, imo, being the best superhero film ever made, this is my 2nd most anticipated film next year(nothing can beat a certain man with a hat). I just wish they could've gotten a much better actor to play the joker.

[2099net]

Oh good grief. I've just read this on Wikipedia:

The Dark Knight
Main article: The Dark Knight (film)
Murphy has also been spotted filming on the set of Batman Begins sequel The Dark Knight, reprising his role as The Scarecrow, though it's not known how big his role in the upcoming film may be.

Another villain?

[Disney-Fan]

Wikipedia ain't exactly the go-to source when it comes to rumors so that doesn't hold much water. But, hey, if it's true, why not? We have Batman fighting Joker and Scarecrow (you might even get the backstory you desired) and at the same time Two Face in the making (showing up in the third movie).

I'll put it another way then. If you were describing the Scarecrow, based on just what was seen in the movie and nothing else, what could you actually describe? How deep did it go? Did you feel as though you knew the Scarecrow and what made him tick?

I'll give you that. What can I say? I felt that the movie went to such depths with Al Gul and [to an extent] Falcone, that there was just no need for more backstory. I see how you as a fan of the character would feel cheated though.

So why have him in make-up at all? Ah yes, the other current fad in movie series - end on a "to be continued..." cliffhanger so that the audience feels somehow cheapened at not getting proper closure on the film they've paid to see.

If you can truthfully say that the so-called cliffhanger* in Begins interfered with closure for the characters I'll just give up right now.

*If you see the bonus features for Begins, and search the net for interviews with Nolan, you'll find that his plan was for a trilogy of films, with each one being self-contained and at the same time part of a bigger story. The ending in Begins was, yes, a cliffhanger to leave the door open for future plans but at the same time served as a tip of the hat to the original movie and to the fans. Nolan clearly states that it's important to not have the "open" end intrude the feeling of closure for the characters' respective journeys. Following a fad? Hardly!

[2099net]

I wouldn't call the ending of Begins a cliffhanger. I would just call it a tease. Maybe even a playful one.

If we actually see Harvey Dent as Two-Face, scarred and all, its a little more than a tease.

[Disney-Fan]

I wouldn't call the ending of Begins a cliffhanger. I would just call it a tease. Maybe even a playful one.

...Yet amusingly enough it got me more riled up than any massive cliff-hanger ever did (yes Pirates 2, I'm looking your way!). I can't believe we're only a year away now.

[Loomis]

I don't necessarily see why a movie can't have multiple villains and still work. After all, other movies have more that two characters - one good good, and one bad guy - and still manage to tell a cohesive story. Why shouldn't the same rule apply to comic films? This is what I think the real strength of Batman Begins was: it was a well crafted film first, and it drew upon comic book mythology to tell its tale.

After all, comics have villain team-ups and introduce multiple characters in single issues. There, they do it in 22 pages. Granted, often those team-ups don't involve introducing the character, but it doesn't have to be there either. We didn't get a Ra's "origin story" in Batman Begins, he just was.

The argument of "multiple characters = multiple toys" just doesn't wash with me for this new franchise. It was clearly the case on the last two Schumacher films, and possibly the last Spider-man film, but Batman Begins - as we have already established - is aimed at an older audience who have grown up with comics or are simply not into comics to begin with. They aren't necessarily the toy-buying market.

Also, I don't think a comic adaptation has to be completely indebted to the source material, but merely has to draw upon it. If you think of comic book characters as modern day folk heroes, then their adventures are constantly open to interpretation. DC and Marvel certain like to play around with their own characters: DC has Elseworlds; Marvel has their Ultimate line; 2099; Mangaverse etc. All of these use the same basis for the character

So if it helps, think of the films as another 'Elseworlds' interpretation. They aren't in continuity, they play with the same characters, but offer a different look at them. We always have the classic stories to return to in print if we want. Personally, I think Batman Begins is both a masterstroke in terms of filmmaking and adapting, but when it comes to comic book films, you can't please all the people all the time.

[AwallaceUNC]

Well, we do have proof that more than one villain -- four, even -- can coexist in a film and still rock:



-Aaron

[Siren]

I still think Crispin Glover would make the perfect Joker. Willard was a great movie to see how good he is as acting completely certified psychotic. Here is a photoshop rendition of him as Joker too
http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/359/ ... ver5rb.jpg

I also wish instead of having Two Face, they have someone more closely connected to Joker, but not truly a full-fledge villain. I would LOVE to see Harley Quinn make it to the big screen. She is a fantastic addition to the character of Joker. Shows a different side of him. Most of the time he is simply psychotic, but when Harley is there, he is much darker. More abusive husband/boyfriend. She does so much to please her and he's beaten the crap out of her several times. I really wish they would develop her into the movie. Crispin Glover or not.

I don't know who could play her. One of my friends suggested Cameron Diaz...and when I saw a picture of her smile, I could see/accept her as Harley.

[AwallaceUNC]

I would LOVE to see Harley Quinn make it to the big screen. She is a fantastic addition to the character of Joker.

Agreed! Whatever happened to those reports in the late '90s of Madonna getting cast in the role? I'm sure MM1 can tell us.

-Aaron

[Escapay]

Agreed! Whatever happened to those reports in the late '90s of Madonna getting cast in the role?

They were likely squashed when Batman Triumphant (which would've featured Scarecrow and Harley Quinn, who'd be Joker's daughter, not his lover) was canceled after the poor box-office and critical reception of Batman & Robin on Ice.

Escapay

[AwallaceUNC]

They were likely squashed when Batman Triumphant (which would've featured Scarecrow and Harley Quinn, who'd be Joker's daughter, not his lover) was canceled after the poor box-office and critical reception of Batman & Robin on Ice.

That was the one! I just never knew it had been titled or officially scrapped. I guess when <i>Batman Begins</i> came around with Scarecrow, I assumed that had been what I heard about. Should have followed Batman with the same fervor that I did in my younger days, I guess.

<i>Batman & Robin on Ice</i> =

-Aaron

[Disney-Fan]

Most of the time he is simply psychotic, but when Harley is there, he is much darker.

I somehow doubt we're going to lack a dark Joker in this one. The official picture alone is giving me nightmares and I haven't even heard him speak yet.

[MagicMirror]

The only Batman film that worked with more than one villain for Batman to face was Batman Returns, because it played it out in a sort of Murnau fashion, where all the characters reflect different aspects of each other (particularly Batman himself, obviously). I must disagree with many here about Begins being the best; in my opinion, Returns is a masterpiece!

[SpringHeelJack]

I must disagree with many here about Begins being the best; in my opinion, Returns is a masterpiece!

I agree with you. I enjoyed "Batman Begins", but nothing will ever touch "Batman Returns" in my mind.

[Kossage]

The Joker as shown in Batman: The Animated Series (and the animated movie Batman: Mask of the Phantasm) was great. Mark Hamill did a great job portraying him and managed to mix the character's dark and hilarious nature well. That laugh (and all those crazy variations) was awesome and a great trademark of Joker.

I don't know if casting Heath Ledger was the best choice, but he might surprise me with his performance, so time will tell. Even if the interpretation of the character ended up being darker, I hope we'll still see some of that clown stuff he does, and I particularly want to hear the laugh (although I doubt he'll be as great as Hamill was, but who knows).

Two things kind of irked me in Batman Begins. The first was the fight sequences. I know they're supposed to be chaotic and kind of create the sense of fear the criminals feel when they don't know who they're facing, but I was sad that we didn't have some long battle shots, particularly in the final showdown which would've benefited from a better 'view' of the duel.

The other thing that irked me was the score by Hans Zimmer and James Newton-Howard. It hardly had any memorable themes and despite having a sizable orchestra it sounded more of a synth session due to the mixing process. The theme used for Batman was very simplistic, and even if Zimmer and JNH introduced the actual theme in the end, it wasn't a satisfying way of doing it. If they had really wanted to have a Batman theme before he truly establishes himself as an icon, they could've used the route David Arnold used in Casino Royale (which had a new theme for Bond before he becomes the Bond we know; the theme was also based on the actual classic Bond theme which was a nice touch), but instead they chose a more simplistic way. Heck, Danny Elfman, Elliot Goldenthal and Shirley Walker all wrote great themes for Batman, so I would've expected Zimmer and JNH to really nail this one, but instead they failed for the most part. I hope the score for The Dark Knight will be better, though; I haven't lost hope yet, because Zimmer's gang managed to create awful scores for the first two POTC films whereas the third score redeemed the franchise's music, so if the second Batsy film has a bad score, the third might surprise me.

All in all I'm interested in seeing the coming Batman film. I think BB was quite good, on par with Burton's first Batman and Mask of the Phantasm, so I hope the second film will be as enjoyable as BB was.

[Siren]

Most of the time he is simply psychotic, but when Harley is there, he is much darker.

I somehow doubt we're going to lack a dark Joker in this one. The official picture alone is giving me nightmares and I haven't even heard him speak yet.

My point is there is different types of darkness. Having Harley Quinn there, who is the quintessential abused girlfriend/wife, who no matter how many bruises and how many broken bones she gets, no matter how many times she walks out on Joker, Joker only has to smile and send her a flower (Mad Love) and she returns to him with open arms. It shows his charisma and control over his own personal life. That he's not just psychotic, he is also intelligent and controlling. And an intelligent psychotic is far scarier than a stupid one. There is a method to his madness.


Also on Begin's music....I was also unimpressed. It wasn't memorable at all. Hans Zimmer has been disappointing me for a while actually. Gone are his memorable, haunting scores as of lately. I'm not sure if they were trying to hard to stay away from the other movies or if he simply wasn't connecting well with the characters and imagery.

[slave2moonlight]

I still think Crispin Glover would make the perfect Joker. Willard was a great movie to see how good he is as acting completely certified psychotic. Here is a photoshop rendition of him as Joker too
http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/359/ ... ver5rb.jpg

I also wish instead of having Two Face, they have someone more closely connected to Joker, but not truly a full-fledge villain. I would LOVE to see Harley Quinn make it to the big screen. She is a fantastic addition to the character of Joker. Shows a different side of him. Most of the time he is simply psychotic, but when Harley is there, he is much darker. More abusive husband/boyfriend. She does so much to please her and he's beaten the crap out of her several times. I really wish they would develop her into the movie. Crispin Glover or not.

I don't know who could play her. One of my friends suggested Cameron Diaz...and when I saw a picture of her smile, I could see/accept her as Harley.

I totally adore Harley and I agree totally about Crispin Glover. He's my number one choice for Joker. For Harley, I think I'd love to see Lindy Booth (from Cry Wolf and Dawn of the Dead, who was previously known for having blonde hair but went red for those films). I used to suggest Sherri Moon for the role (Rob Zombie's wife) largely based on her performance in "House of 1,000 Corpses." She could work, but I find Lindy a better physical match and much cuter. I always felt Sherri (or is it with one "r") looked a bit older than she was playing most of the time.

Oh, sometime after Batman Begins came out, I made a mock movie poster for a sequel that includes all the major villains. You can see it at the bottom of my "My Space" page. It's basically my fantasy casting, though a couple I would change if I redid the poster today. I mainly just put Lindsay Lohan in there as Poison Ivy because I couldn't think of another redhead, ha. Today, I'd use Isla Fisher in the role. In the poster, I used Crispin Glover as Joker, Billy Zane as TwoFace, and included several others as well. My favorite was probably Christopher Lloyd as Mr. Freeze. Always wanted to see that. My Catwoman would probably change now, but I forget who my new choice was. I think I had come up with a couple of new options for her.

[The Little Merboy]

For Harley, I think I'd love to see Lindy Booth (from Cry Wolf and Dawn of the Dead, who was previously known for having blonde hair but went red for those films).

Oh jeez no! She would make a HORRIBLE Harley, and she's no where near as cute as Harley.

I think Anna Faris would be a better choice.

[slave2moonlight]

On the topic of Batman Begins itself, it is easily my favorite superhero film just after Spidey 2. I'll confess though, that I loved Spider-Man 3, and so did most of the people I know who saw it, ha.

"Batman Begins" isn't a perfect Batman film, but it's close. I wish he could have worn a costume more like in those really great fanfilms online, with the gray and black, and I felt the destruction he caused in his Batmobile seemed a bit un-Batman-like, but I don't recall having many other complaints. I thought the multiple villain angle was handled very well. I would have preferred more focus on Scarecrow and his backstory, but it wasn't necessary. They could always cover that in a sequel, and if they don't, no big deal. The movie was loaded with Bruce Wayne angst and fear. As has been said before, that was the whole subject of the movie, especially his concern with disappointing his parents. This is shown in so many ways, and if you didn't catch them, you really need to watch it again. I can see how the music could have been more memorable, but it does its job and doesn't take on a life of its own, so it's just another way to go. I remember reading that in "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade" they played down the "Raiders March" a bit from its use in "Temple." Those identifiable themes can turn the characters into a bit more of cartoon characters, and Nolan's Batman is aiming at a more realistic style. Giving him this theme song (so to speak) that we all think of when we see him will make him less human.

I'm sure I was going to say some other stuff, but I'm having a lot of distractions around me right now. So, a quick word on the sequels. Nothing is more annoying than folks getting annoyed by stuff they read about a movie before even seeing it. So the Scarecrow might be back in the next film. It could be a flashback, it could be a brief scene at Arkham. Let's wait and see. At least it displays continuity to see characters return, especially by the same actors. As for the Joker, my favorite Bat-villain and probably the fave of most, I can't say I was overjoyed at the casting, but I'll give it a chance. I don't love that one photo of him, but it could still work. I've never been a big Two-Face fan, but I'm willing to try any characters to see Nolan's take on them. It's a shame if he truly is limiting it all to a trilogy because I'd love for him to tackle Mad Hatter and to prove that Batgirl and Robin CAN be done in a non-corny way. I really wish they had used Sarah Michelle Gellar as Batgirl some years back. As for the talk about open endings, teasers, stuff like that, Batman's life is an ongoing struggle with new villains turning up on him all the time. It wouldn't be a good Batman film if the ending gave us the impression he could go home and rest now, his work is done. His work is never done. The only loose end that should be tied up is the crime at hand. Another one will always be in the works for him to deal with and it's fine to show that.

[slave2moonlight]

For Harley, I think I'd love to see Lindy Booth (from Cry Wolf and Dawn of the Dead, who was previously known for having blonde hair but went red for those films).

Oh jeez no! She would make a HORRIBLE Harley, and she's no where near as cute as Harley.

I think Anna Faris would be a better choice.

Anna Faris would be great too, but why would Lindy be horrible? I think that, if you've seen her as a blonde, her look is perfect (Lindy is gorgeous, but to each his own, and I hadn't thought of Anna but she might be an even better choice, I'll admit, and she's also a fave girl of mine).