Top Live Action Film Countdown

[Luke]

Voting is now officially ended. I received 73 lists through forum posts and e-mails. Thanks to all who participated.

The results will be a little bit different from the animated countdown ones, but I'm still not entirely sure how. In any event, we'll be counting down the Top 30, with #'s 30 through 21 featured Monday through Friday of next week.

Interesting results, with the Top 30 films being pretty evenly spread over the past 60 years. Surely, there will be some surprises along the way. There were 166 live action films that received votes.

Thanks again to all who voted! I hope it was fun for you and that you will enjoy our Countdown of the Top votegetters.

[Paka]

Dur - I didn't get around to voting. But that's fine - I mostly held off 'cause I'm less familiar with Disney's live-action stuff (although I've seen quite a few). Even though I have a few favorites, I just wouldn't know where the hell to start - what with Disney's considerably huge live-action library. O_o

I'm already beginning to regret my decision, though. Seeing Homeward Bound - the only film that makes me cry - at #30, I wish I'd have had some input. Yarr - curse these lurking habits o' mine!!

[2099net]

I realised after doing my write-ups for Luke that I dramatically undervalued A Muppet Christmas Carol on my original voting. It should have been my no. 1 - oh well, that's the problem with these "competitions", your opinion changes more often than your underware!

[Loomis]

I realised after doing my write-ups for Luke that I dramatically undervalued A Muppet Christmas Carol on my original voting. It should have been my no. 1 - oh well, that's the problem with these "competitions", your opinion changes more often than your underware!

My opinion changes more than once a year...

[englishboy]

sigh, homeward bound???

Even worse, I bet Pirates of the C makes it into the top five. Yikes.

[Ernest Rister]

Yeah, that's the danger of polls...they are a snap-shot of a certain community at a certain moment in time. Same thing happened with the last countdown -- how anyone could possibly say Beauty and the Beast or Aladdin or The Lion King are better than Snow White, Pinocchio, Fantasia, Dumbo and Bambi is beyond me. This community skews young, and so, the poll reflects that -- people are voting for the films they've most recently seen or grew up with. Pirates might just beat Mary Poppins.

[Jack]

Yeah, that's the danger of polls...they are a snap-shot of a certain community at a certain moment in time. Same thing happened with the last countdown -- how anyone could possibly say Beauty and the Beast or Aladdin or The Lion King are better than Snow White, Pinocchio, Fantasia, Dumbo and Bambi is beyond me. This community skews young, and so, the poll reflects that -- people are voting for the films they've most recently seen or grew up with. Pirates might just beat Mary Poppins.

Not to sound bitchy, but how someone could put Dumbo or Bambi above movies like Beauty and the Beast or The Lion King is beyond me.

I'm sure part of it has to do with I was more into recent Disney movies than older ones as a kid, but I honestly feel that some of the newer ones are just better movies than the older ones. That doesn't mean I didn't highly rank some of the older ones though: Fantasia, Sleeping Beauty, and Snow White were all in my top ten.

I think you're crediting the high ranking of 90's films too much to the younger group for voting simply because they grew up with those films. I know many like me of all age groups who consider some of the more recent fare to better than the old. It's just their opinion - they believe in their's just as strongly as you do yours.

[Bill W]

Pirates might just beat Mary Poppins.

If it does, I'll lose all faith in humanity

[Ernest Rister]

We can argue all day long about entertainment value - which animated feature has the best catchy tunes and most pretty pop radio ballads - but there is no avoiding the fact that the animation in Bambi is light-years beyond The Little Mermaid. The raw ambition and imagination in Fantasia beyond anything in Beauty and the Beast. The craftsmanship of Pinocchio has been putting animated films to shame for decades now, and there is nothing in the new films that can even hold a candle to it, certainly not Aladdin. What film do many of the modern Disney animators cite as Disney's best? It's not Beauty and the Beast -- it's Dumbo.

See, many times people talk around each other when discussing what movie is the "best" or "greatest". I'm not talking about entertainment value. If all that mattered when evaluating a work of art was your level of fun, then Dumb and Dumber would be considered a better film than Citizen Kane. But that's not all that matters - craft, subject matter, execution, and control are sometimes more important than a catchy broadway ballad.

It will be a cold day in Hell before The Lion King gets named by the AFI as one of the 100 best American films -- Snow White and Fantasia, however, are both in the top 60. Why? They are amazing achievements in filmmaking. Lion King? It's a kid-centric remake of Bambi set in Africa, only without the poetry, seriousness and outright terror of Walt's film. The Lion King winks at you to tell you not to take it too seriously. There's no moment in Bambi during the final hunt and forest fire where the filmmakers start cracking jokes about Bruce Lee, Sidney Poitier and Taxi Driver.

Same thing with these live-action titles. Most of the people on the forum are voting for their "favorites", not which films are the "best". I love Plan 9 From Outer Space, but I'd never vote for it as one of the best movies of all time. Darby O'Gill and the Little People is one of the greatest fantasy films ever made by anyone -- it's a benchmark in visual f/x, it has a literate and witty script, it has impeccable performances, a great score, and solid direction from Robert Stevenson. I bet it won't crack the top 20 on this list, just based on the demographics of who posts here.

[ohmahaaha]

Being a long time Disney fan, I sometimes question how newer films like Beauty and the Beast and The Lion King or Little Mermaid can be out some of the old movies that I feel are much better, but then I remember that the newer films are the FIRST Disney films seen by a lot of Disney films out there. EVERY Disney film is the FIRST Disney film for at least somebody out there. And often the first time you see magical Disney film ... well, you know the rest.

The reality is it's a blessing to have so many great films to choose from that it creates controversy!

[Disneykid]

But, see, that's what bugs me about people who vote for films or other things. They vote for what their mind tells them; not (CLICHE ALERT) their heart. It bugs me when people say things like, "Oh, X was a great film, and I actually like it better than Y, but Y has been praised by film critics and is older, therefore I'll vote for Y." The point of polls like this is to see what films are currently considered the best in the public's eyes. If everyone voted based on historical significance and such, all polls would be VERY one sided as everyone would be able to guess the outcome since everyone knows the impact and significance of each film. It wouldn't be an accurate reflection of what the public really FEELS. It's true, that polls are only reflecting a current time with a certain amount of people, but that's what makes them so fun. In a few years, if this is ever done again with new members, the results will be different, and makes for interesting comparison.

[Ernest Rister]

"But, see, that's what bugs me about people who vote for films or other things. They vote for what their mind tells them; not (CLICHE ALERT) their heart."

Again, this is the distinction between calling a work of art "your favorite" or "the greatest". What you "Like" is as personal and unique to you as your taste in food, clothes, music, sex, etc.

But if you're supposed to name "the best films ever made - not favorite, but best", would you really be nominating Homeward Bound or Newsies? Would you be nominating Aladdin ahead of Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs or Fantasia? No, you wouldn't, because such a vote would be *impossible* to justify, aside from "Aladdin is tEh funny! Fantasia is tHe dumm and bOring11!!!!1!".

"It bugs me when people say things like, "Oh, X was a great film, and I actually like it better than Y, but Y has been praised by film critics and is older, therefore I'll vote for Y."

I've never heard anyone say that, so I can say that has never bugged me.

"The point of polls like this is to see what films are currently considered the best in the public's eyes."

This board is not "the public" by a long shot -- the poll is a snapshot of the people who log on to this forum, and the majority of the people here are young males (some very young - young enough to be into the tweener pop groups on the Disney labels)

"If everyone voted based on historical significance and such, all polls would be VERY one sided as everyone would be able to guess the outcome since everyone knows the impact and significance of each film."

Right! Because that is an indication of TRUTH, not subjective OPINION. Now we're getting somewhere.

"It wouldn't be an accurate reflection of what the public really FEELS."

Emotions change directions like the wind, and they are influenced by recent events. I really don't care what people FEEL, if their feelings lead them to say The Lion King is a "better" film than Fantasia. It's like saying 2 Fast 2 Furious is a better film than Schindler's List because it was "more fun".

"It's true, that polls are only reflecting a current time with a certain amount of people, but that's what makes them so fun."

They annoy me, cause they make me realize why the founding fathers thought direct Democracy was a bad idea, and why they created a representative republic instead of a pure democracy.

"In a few years, if this is ever done again with new members, the results will be different, and makes for interesting comparison."

If they did it again in a few *weeks* the results would be different, because you'd be getting a different sample of people, and since Alice in Wonderland just came out on DVD, that would be fresh in people's minds, and so it would be higher. That's what happens when you vote on emotion, not reason.

[Jack]

Ernest, I respect your opinion, but the thinking that "what a film represents (i.e. - a great achievment, or a pioneering of an art form) is what mostly constitutes its greatness" is something I've been against for years.

You refer to the AFI top 100. Tell me - are most of those movies ones that you regularly hear people refer to as the greatest? No. That's because the makers of that list arranged it according to how good its PARTS were, not the sum of its parts. They are ranked because of things like cinematography, editing, and so on. Now I'm not saying that people should disregard those things when forming an opinion of a film - but they really shouldn't be a determining factor as to how great a film is, IMO.

I know Fantasia was way ahead of its time, a breakthrough, a pioneer, a fantastic achievement, and I love it for that. But I honestly feel Beauty and the Beast and The Lion King are overall better movie experiences - they are well rounded, they have great pace, they make you care for the characters, they are emotional. Therefore, dispite my loving of Fantasia, when it comes to actually ranking the movies in the order of which ones I think are the best, I put movies like BATB & TLK above it.

And no, I'm not saying Fantasia lacks as a film. I just think BATB and TLK are better. I'm not going to let the perhaps breakthrough technical qualities of a film effect my opinion of it as a whole, and neither should anybody, IMO.

What you said about TLK not matching Bambi's seriousness/terror - it is YOUR OPINION that this makes Bambi a better movie. You are refering to this as something that definately constitutes Bambi as a better film. Some wouldn't feel so.

What makes a movie great is different for everyone. You're coming across as if what you think makes a movie great should be the same 'rule to go by' for everyone else.

[Jack]

About the comment on "voting with emotion, not reason":

Imagine you go into an art gallery. You see a painting that is obviously high quality in its use of oils, color, framing or whatever it may be. But it doesn't have any strong emotional effect on you. Then you see another painting which doesn't really have great technical parts in comparison to the other one, but it has a much stronger emotional effect on you.

Which painting would you say is better?

Art is about emotion. If you have a poll on "greatest movies", emotion is bound to play a part. It's hard for some people to seperate their "favorites" from films they think are "the greatest" because often times, a film will be either their favorite or the one they feel is greatest for the same reasons.

Art is subjective - there is no "TRUTH" or determining factor as to what makes a peice of art great or not.

[Loomis]

Not to add fuel to the fire, but I have to say that I edited my "best of" lists a few times before I came down to the final 20 in both.

I orginally had what I thought was Disney's greatest, and as a result had Beauty and the Beast and some of the classics in the top 2 or 3 positions. Then I just thought - you know what, I like films way more than this. So I think Lilo & Stitch and Little Mermaid wound up as my top 2 (I can't remember in what order), simply because I enjoyed them more.

In the end this arguement comes down to that - looking at the Disney movies and saying which ones YOU like the most. We can argue technical achievements all day (as most Disney films had some advancement or another). But that is not what makes a good film.

Right! Because that is an indication of TRUTH, not subjective OPINION. Now we're getting somewhere.

Yeah, and a lot of people considered In the Cut, In the Mood for Love and American Beauty fantastic, moving and deep films because of their technical merits or visual styles or something (and don't start getting into an argument over these films now - not the point:P). I thought they were all boring pieces of crap. Does that mean that, because I don't agree with the majority, my view of the films are false ones?

I think the point of these polls is to find what YOU think is great. If you want to judge it by technical merits, then great . If you want to judge it by the amount of laughs you get, great too.

In the end, as Jack says, what is great is different for everyone. Gone with the Wind might be seen as a milestone achievement to some, others may think it is the most overrated movie ever made. Difference of opinion. Just because lots of people think something, doesn't make it right. Look at the amount of people who have mobile phones!

Seriously though, if you could "bottle" success and say "This is what makes a great movie", don't you think they'd all be the same? May as well just start a prodution line and not worry about the rest. Variety is the spice of life, and if we all thought the same movies were great there would be no need for a Top 20.

[Maerj]

I have to agree with Jack's last posting here. To criticize other's favorite movie based upon historical significance, etc., is absurd. This entire argument is, in fact. Everyone has their own taste, their own opinion. If someone enjoys Homeward Bound, who are we to tell that person that they shouldn't like it?

There are a lot of DVDs in my collection that will never see an AFI top 100 list and I really don't care. As long as I enjoy the film on some level, it's important to my collection. I don't need to agree with elitist critics, AFI members or Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Science members. Yes, they pick out some great films, but there are a lot of other movies out there too.

[Ernest Rister]

"Ernest, I respect your opinion, but the thinking that "what a film represents (i.e. - a great achievment, or a pioneering of an art form) is what mostly constitutes its greatness" is something I've been against for years."

Why? A film that does somethng new or expands the language of film should be considered inferior to a film with a bunch of fart jokes? "Favorite" and "Best" are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

"You refer to the AFI top 100. Tell me - are most of those movies ones that you regularly hear people refer to as the greatest? No."

Yes, actually. In the circles I run in. I don't know who your friends are, or who you talk to on a daily basis, but I've heard few arguments from my associates about the choices on the AFI list. I've heard more complaints about what was left OUT rather than what was put IN. I would be hard pressed to make an argument as to why any film on that list should be removed. For the masses who just voted Pirates of the Caribbean "best film of the year" at the People's Choice Awards, yeah, I bet they have some issues with the AFI 100.

That's because the makers of that list arranged it according to how good its PARTS were, not the sum of its parts.

That's ABSURD. Have you actually SEEN the films on the AFI 100? Schindler's List and 2001 and Citizen Kane and Fantasia and Wizard of Oz and Casablanca and all the rest were only voted for because they had "good parts"? No, they represent the BEST of American cinema.

I'm not arguing this further, as it is now apparent, it is a waste of everyone's time.

[Jack]

"Ernest, I respect your opinion, but the thinking that "what a film represents (i.e. - a great achievment, or a pioneering of an art form) is what mostly constitutes its greatness" is something I've been against for years."

Why?

Becuase it's MY OPINION that what a film represents or achieves should not be something that constitutes greatness. You may feel differently, and I said I respect that.

A film that does somethng new or expands the language of film should be considered inferior to a film with a bunch of fart jokes?

You're saying this shows that you: 1) Are putting words in my mouth, 2)Don't respect my opinion, as I do yours. You didn't hear me talking to you in this manner in any of my above posts.

"Favorite" and "Best" are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS

It depends - sometimes, somebody could feel their favorite film is the best film. As I said before, its different for everyone because everyone has an opinion.

"You refer to the AFI top 100. Tell me - are most of those movies ones that you regularly hear people refer to as the greatest? No."

Yes, actually. In the circles I run in. I don't know who your friends are, or who you talk to on a daily basis, but I've heard few arguments from my associates about the choices on the AFI list. I've heard more complaints about what was left OUT rather than what was put IN. I would be hard pressed to make an argument as to why any film on that list should be removed. For the masses who just voted Pirates of the Caribbean "best film of the year" at the People's Choice Awards, yeah, I bet they have some issues with the AFI 100.

Personally, I have heard people refer to some movies on the list as the best - but I most of the movies on there, I don't (that's why I put 'most' in italics in my original post). For example, I very rarely hear people refer to films like "Singin' in the Rain" as one of the best movies. I've heard a lot from various people that their opinion of the best films are not on there.

That's because the makers of that list arranged it according to how good its PARTS were, not the sum of its parts.

That's ABSURD. Have you actually SEEN the films on the AFI 100? Schindler's List and 2001 and Citizen Kane and Fantasia and Wizard of Oz and Casablanca and all the rest were only voted for because they had "good parts"? No, they represent the BEST of American cinema.

Is it so absurd? If Citizen Kane didn't have groundbreaking cinematography, do you think it would be #1 on the list? I personally doubt it. I'm not saying the films on the list aren't good (in fact, Casablanca is one of my favs). I'm just saying that they are ranked mostly acording to their technical parts, IMO.

I'm not arguing this further, as it is now apparent, it is a waste of everyone's time.

I'm glad you recognize that its a waste to try and dictate what a person's opinion should or shouldn't be. I'm glad this is over.

[Ernest Rister]

I'm not telling you what you should LIKE. I'm not telling you what your opinion SHOULD be. I'm just telling you the lay of the land. Facts are facts. Truth is Truth.

The Lion King will never be found on a list of the Best American Films. Not now, not ever. It's fun, sure. But it pales next to the achievements of Fantasia and Bambi. That's not an opinion. It's as quanitifable as an algebraic equation. Anyone can LIKE whatever it is they want to LIKE. But if they want to argue that the film they LIKE represents the best achievements in filmmaking, there's a whole lot more to that argument than "I enjoy it". For the last time, if entertainment value was the end-all/be-all to a consideration of the achievement of a filmmaker, Dumb and Dumber would be considered a better film than Citizen Kane.

Go ahead and like whatever you want. I like some pretty off the wall films, too. In fact, some of the films I enjoy are downright awful. But I'd never argue that they represent the best cinema had to offer. And I'd certainly never suggest that the AFI list is a fraud, put together by poseurs who only only respected certain aspects of a film as opposed to it's worth in total.

I'm not telling people what they should LIKE. But if I made a poll asking people to list the "25 best Disney animated features", I'd make damn sure the people voting knew what was meant by "best" as opposed to "favorite".

[Loomis]

I'm not telling you what you should LIKE. I'm not telling you what your opinion SHOULD be. I'm just telling you the lay of the land. Facts are facts. Truth is Truth.

Yes sir!!! We shall obey your laws.
What should we watch, my lord?
Does this film meet your standard of approval for a good film?

Facts are facts are they? You know is was a FACT a few hundred years ago that the earth was flat. Somebody had the guts to go "Nope, round! Look!"

Now that is an extreme example, but it holds.

There is no "truth" in an artistic medium. NOTHING is viewed by two people in the same way, even if their opinions are substantially similar.

If we all stuck to your "facts"- and had preconceived ideas of what a good film is - then we would all go and see the same things and nobody would ever do anything different. Lists like the AFI lists are still just opinions of people - people who largely work in the film industry - so their appreciation is going to be different to say...me. We may as well just stop making films. We already have the classics.

I hate all that film critic bullshit. The reason we have a "art house" cinema, and a "mainstream" cinema is because of notions like yours that separate supposedly "good cinema" into it's own special category that nobody could possibly hope to improve upon.

What makes Police Academy any less of a film to say...Lost in Translation. Why can't somebody enjoy them equally? More to the point, why does the opinion of that person who thinks they are the two greatest films ever made count less than the so called film watching "majority".

Just because a lot of people agree on something, doesn't make it right. I can think of a few examples throughout history where people all agreed on something because it was easier than disagreeing. Those situations usually ended in war.

Now, I'm not calling you a dictator (although you are being a little elitist, IMO), Ernest. Far from it. I just hope that you recognise that because a group of people - even a large group of people - agree on something, it doesn't always make it "the lay of the land".