Are the Disney Princesses Bad for our Children?

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Disney Duster
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What's Wrong With Disney Princess

Post by Disney Duster »

First off, I want to remind people of something:
Snow White makes the dwarfs meals and altogether betters their lives.

Cinderella rescues the mice from cages and Lucifer, and feeds them.

Aurora...didn't get any chance to do anything, but that's just because of an evil spell. She did provide a good moral that you should not stay with strangers in the woods alone, make them come to your cottage!

Ariel saves Flounder and Eric from possible death, by being eaten by shark or drowning. She actually does more than Eric!

Belle sacrifices herself for her father.

Jasmine marries Aladdin and rescues him from poverty.

There's a few more things, I just kind of listed the most important ones. Anyway, I know some of the problem is that the princesses seem to be about clothes and doing nothing, but they actually do hard work, try to help people, and don't care much about dresses beyond needing something to wear at a ball.
Isidour wrote:After reading that analisis of the Disney Princesses, sounds to me that we could make a sort of "Desperate Housewives" with the princesses :lol:
Big Disney Fan wrote:Also, get a load of this:

DISNEY'S DESPERATE HOUSEWIVES (from "Mother Goose and Grimm"):

BELLE: My husband is an animal.
CINDERELLA: Mine still drives a pumpkin.
SNOW WHITE: My husband leaves me at home with 7 little ones.
ARIEL: Mine wants me to wear fishnet stockings.
AURORA: I just pretend I'm asleep.
Did you do that yourself? That's really clever!
EDIT: That's originally what I said to Big Disney Fan before I knew that he got it from some place else.
Last edited by Disney Duster on Sun Apr 29, 2007 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Isidour »

are you being sarcastic?
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Post by Escapay »

No, he was referencing you to BDF's referall of the Mother Goose & Grimm comic strip, and asking where BDF got it.

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Post by Isidour »

ohhh now I got it :lol:

but now I wonder..which would be who
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Post by Jay »

Isidour wrote:ohhh now I got it :lol:

but now I wonder..which would be who

I'd say

Cinderella=Bree
Snow White=Lynette
Ariel=Susan
Belle=Gabriella
Aroura=Edie
darth_deetoo

Post by darth_deetoo »

This is getting ridiculous.

So Cinderella becomes a husband murdering, compulsive obsessive.

Snow White a drug addicted mother.

Ariel an aging pushover.

Belle, a sex mad cheating bimbo.

Aurora, a man eater.

Yeah, we're really looking to promote the point of view that the Disney Princesses aren't bad for children aren't we, by comparing them to these stereotypes.

Sorry if some of those descriptions of the Desperate Housewives aren't completely accurate, I lost track of the show mid way through the second series.
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Post by singerguy04 »

Yeah, somehow i don't really think comparing the princesses to the gals in desperate housewives is really helping to solve our point.

A lot of these people aren't afraid of the stories or the princesses personalities, they are worried about their presence and how they appear on products and the merchandise the princesses are selling. It's kind of like the whole supermodel thing but with children and animation. Let's face it, if these kids aren't watching the movies then they are only seeing the image, which is beautiful and perfect. All the princesses are skinny, if they aren't in their original films then they are being made to look skinnier in more modern interpretations of the characters. I still think that in time children growing up with the princesses will realize what's really going on with their characters, so therefore i think the arguement is dumb but i guess i can still see where parents might be coming from.

As for Bratz, I hate them. they are disgusting, and what's even worse are the brats babyz (or whatever they're called). It's completely disgusting!

If people are going to make this huge deal about the disney princesses then they should target all dolls in general as well. Barbies, American Girls, Bratz, ext. All of them are about buying massive amounts of stuff for the dolls. In fact, you don't ever have to stop buying them stuff because they keep making more and more stuff for them. you have to collect it all. Which brings me to Pokemon, power rangers, transformers, ANY TOY!

Over the summer i work as a camp counselor and every week i get a new group of kids that range from 8-16. What's sad is that it's rare when i get a kid who actually knows what it's like to be outside for a week or go camp out in the woods for a night. On the opposite end, I had a lot of kids whose parents had close to nothing to do with them. They didn't have good social skills, they were often violent and seclusive, they were scared of everything, but at the end of the week those kids would be crying because they didn't want to leave. Why didn't they want to leave? because i was there to give them the time of day. This ranged from kids that lived in the ghettos of Indianapolis to the countryside of southern indiana and everywhere in between.

I guess my final question is... What is a real threat to children now a days? My answer is their own parents. They need to stop relying on pop culture to educate their children. It doesn't work, and what's even more absurd is that parents expect the rest of the world to change our entertainment because they can't hang around and teach their kid right from wrong. :roll: People just need to stop freaking out about these things, because as long as you (the parent) are around then you will still be your childs hero because you are a real person and even very small children can identify with you better than a piece of plastic as long as you try.

well, there's my rant for the day. I'll probably be back in a couple of days as this stirs around in my head some more.
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What's Wrong With Disney Princess

Post by Disney Duster »

I agree with you, singerguy04. That's amazing how you did all that for kids, by the way. It's true, children should learn from their parents what to do.

There seem to be different princess problems:
The princesses are all skinny: Even though it's not healthy to be overweight, not everyone can be so thin, and some of the images of the princesses can look unhealthily underweight.

Defense: In the movies, not all the princesses are unhealthily skinny, and it would not be good to teach children that being overweight is a good thing, either.

The princesses all have men: It teaches girls they should only fall in love with men.

Defense: There is none. Every Disney movie promotes opposite sex relationships and children will not think same-sex romance can occur. So if they discover they feel like they want to kiss someone of the same sex, they will feel sad, abnormal, and hate themselves.

All the princesses are in relationships at young ages: Girls might think they need to be with someone at a very young age, and if they aren't in love by 16, there's something wrong with them.

Defense: Not every princess is that young. Cinderella is rumored to be 18, an adult by legal standards, Belle seems to be older, Snow White seems older, and being a teenager in love is not a bad thing. There is still the problem of children feeling that if they aren't in love by then, they aren't doing something right or they aren't attractive enough to get someone.

The princesses are saved in different ways by men: Be it rescued from eternal slumber, a giant octopus, or just an unhappy life, it implies men will always rescue them, and they shouldn't bother to try rescuing themselves. It also implies they can't be happy without a man.

Defense: The princesses save some men and male animal friends themselves, though sometimes more indirectly. The man also isn't happy without the female, so it's a problem that affects boys as well as girls. The problem is that a message is sent that you won't be happy or there is something wrong with you if you don't find a partner. Whether or not that is a problem is debatable, because it is true that if we don't fall in love with someone, we usually aren't happy. Some people really don't want girlfriends or boyfriends, but they are few.

Oh, but this may not just be a Disney problem. Arguably, in the acclaimed Spirited Away, Chihiro is saved by a boy, though he is arguably just a friend, not a love interest. She helps him as much as he helps her, but she still doesn't do it herself.

So is that the main problem, that so many movies have people helping each other out, we don't have enough messages that you should help yourself out?

And I just wanted to say something that urks me. So many people seem to think Ariel, Belle, and Jasmine are so much better than Snow White, Cinderella, and Aurora. Why? Because they're feistier? Having a sassy personality does not make you better than someone who is more quiet or subdued. For the record, Cinderella pushed her stepmother to let her go to the ball, pointing out the invitation was for her, too. Cinderella wanted to explore another world just like the other princesses, whether it was a world in a palace or a world without a mean family. Snow White was prompted by a man, but she did actually run away from a life she didn't like.

Let's look at how a princess takes control of her life:
Ariel decided to take Ursula's help. Okay, that was her decision and she went to Ursula bravely. But she was prompted by Flotsam and Jetsam, and she wouldn't have figured out how to make her dream come true until they came up to her. Cinderella had her fairy godmother come up to her just like them, and only after she had already tried to get herself to the ball and failed.

Belle wanted another life, but didn't know how to get it until her father got himself into trouble. She went to save him, but didn't know she would end up making herself happy. It was herself who got her where she wanted to be, but she didn't think she would be happy in a dungeon. She kind of made herself happy indirectly.

Jasmine went off to find happiness, but she didn't really succeed in doing it until she was able to choose Aladdin as her Prince. She pushed her father to let her, but he still let her do it. She wasn't happy until her father let her choose the Prince.

We don't know what would have happened were it not for Flotsam and Jetsam, Belle's father, or Jasmine's father, but we don't know what they would have done without them for sure.

So don't go off saying the new princesses are that much better. Oh, and one more thing. Since when is Belle smart? Because she reads? She read about "a beanstalk and an ogre", she read about "far of places, magic spells, a prince in disguise." She didn't read Aristotle! It annoys me when people characterize her as a philosipher or say she is intelligent just because she reads a lot. Please. She reads fairy tales. I'm not saying she's not smart, I'm just saying she's not smarter than any other princess just because you see her reading.
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Re: What's Wrong With Disney Princess

Post by darth_deetoo »

Disney Duster wrote:She reads fairy tales. I'm not saying she's not smart, I'm just saying she's not smarter than any other princess just because you see her reading.
Isn't she reading Shakespeare (Romeo and Juliet) in the Special Edition.

I'm not saying she is smarter than the other princesses, and I actually like them all (although Belle is my favourite), but I think her love of books is supposed to be a way of showing her intelligence.

I think the newer Princesses, are probably more well rounded characters than the earlier ones. I don't mean that in a negative way, it's just how the characters are written in different times. The Cinderella of Cinderella III seems much more resourceful and capable than in the original film, where she actually resolves to do something about her situation, whereas in the original film, when her stepsisters tear her dress up, she just breaks down in tears. I know that's a limitation of the story, but, it's still a defining character moment.
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Post by kurtadisneyite »

Cute MGAG comic!

Meanwhile in a Disney Publications "Once Upon a Princess" , Esmeralda got her own "princess story". Probably a matter of time before she gets into the general princess circulation.

And some years ago, the small Disney Adventures magazine hosted a picture of the current Actor from James Bond, with three of the Disney ladies posed as his "girls" (Megara, Jasmine, Esmeralda) in kung-fu poses around him.
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Re: What's Wrong With Disney Princess

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Disney Duster wrote: There seem to be different princess problems:
The princesses are all skinny: Even though it's not healthy to be overweight, not everyone can be so thin, and some of the images of the princesses can look unhealthily underweight.

Defense: In the movies, not all the princesses are unhealthily skinny, and it would not be good to teach children that being overweight is a good thing, either.
I agree completely. Snow White, Cinderella, and Belle have healthy body shapes. Aurora's mid-section I cannot critic, because it's too much like my own natural frame.
The princesses all have men: It teaches girls they should only fall in love with men.

Defense: There is none. Every Disney movie promotes opposite sex relationships and children will not think same-sex romance can occur. So if they discover they feel like they want to kiss someone of the same sex, they will feel sad, abnormal, and hate themselves.
True for the most part, but I don't think this causes said children to "feel sad, abnormal, and hate themselves."
All the princesses are in relationships at young ages: Girls might think they need to be with someone at a very young age, and if they aren't in love by 16, there's something wrong with them.

Defense: Not every princess is that young. Cinderella is rumored to be 18, an adult by legal standards, Belle seems to be older, Snow White seems older, and being a teenager in love is not a bad thing.
Snow White looks 14! Cinderella and Belle certainly seem to be college-age, though.
There is still the problem of children feeling that if they aren't in love by then, they aren't doing something right or they aren't attractive enough to get someone.
I'll give my $0.02 on this one in a second.
The princesses are saved in different ways by men: Be it rescued from eternal slumber, a giant octopus, or just an unhappy life, it implies men will always rescue them, and they shouldn't bother to try rescuing themselves. It also implies they can't be happy without a man.

Defense: The princesses save some men and male animal friends themselves, though sometimes more indirectly. The man also isn't happy without the female, so it's a problem that affects boys as well as girls. The problem is that a message is sent that you won't be happy or there is something wrong with you if you don't find a partner. Whether or not that is a problem is debatable, because it is true that if we don't fall in love with someone, we usually aren't happy. Some people really don't want girlfriends or boyfriends, but they are few.
Hello, my name is Prue of the Few. In all seriousness, you're right. Not everyone looks for a romantic companion. I have had my share of boyfriends, but I have never desired to go out and look for one, nor do I feel I need one to have a fulfilling life.

In all honesty, one of my secrets is this: I know I'm worth something. I know I'm worth more than anyone realizes. That may sound self-centered, but if people knew they were worth so much more than what the media and trends project, they would find many other ways besides relationships that would lead to success in this world.
Oh, but this may not just be a Disney problem.
It's a media problem in general.
So is that the main problem, that so many movies have people helping each other out, we don't have enough messages that you should help yourself out?
Heck, that's one of the reasons I like both Cinderella and Prudence. In different ways, they have both thought something along the lines of what you just said.
And I just wanted to say something that urks me.
It IRKS you! :wink:
So many people seem to think Ariel, Belle, and Jasmine are so much better than Snow White, Cinderella, and Aurora. Why? Because they're feistier? Having a sassy personality does not make you better than someone who is more quiet or subdued.
This IRKS me, as well. Sometimes I think the "modern" princesses stand on the edge of the bratty side, especially Ariel and Jasmine.
Since when is Belle smart? Because she reads? She read about "a beanstalk and an ogre", she read about "far of places, magic spells, a prince in disguise." She didn't read Aristotle! It annoys me when people characterize her as a philosipher or say she is intelligent just because she reads a lot. Please. She reads fairy tales. I'm not saying she's not smart, I'm just saying she's not smarter than any other princess just because you see her reading.
Out of mere curiosity, was your mention of Aristotle in my honor by any chance? I remember I brought up said Greek philosopher in our first conversation.
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Post by Disney's Divinity »

This is getting ridiculous.

So Cinderella becomes a husband murdering, compulsive obsessive.

Snow White a drug addicted mother.

Ariel an aging pushover.

Belle, a sex mad cheating bimbo.

Aurora, a man eater.

Yeah, we're really looking to promote the point of view that the Disney Princesses aren't bad for children aren't we, by comparing them to these stereotypes.
Are the characters of Desperate Housewives really stereotypes or are you just making them that way for your convenience? Just wondering, because I think it's obvious to anyone's who watched the show that they are hardly that static.
I agree with you, singerguy04. That's amazing how you did all that for kids, by the way. It's true, children should learn from their parents what to do.
Possibly, though I doubt every parent is great enough to imitate. Though I can honestly say I was molded by The Little Mermaid nearly as much as my mother (and grandmother), and I don't feel that I've become a "bad" child.
The princesses all have men: It teaches girls they should only fall in love with men.

Defense: There is none. Every Disney movie promotes opposite sex relationships and children will not think same-sex romance can occur. So if they discover they feel like they want to kiss someone of the same sex, they will feel sad, abnormal, and hate themselves.
The same-sex thing is a problem, but I doubt it'll be fixed anytime soon. Disney loves to cater to the general public, and it would simply be bad for business if they created a homosexual protagonist (or involved sidekick).

I think one of the other major problems with Disney movies and, truly, with all movies in general is that movies with a leading lady usually have a greater chance of being romance-driven than those with male protagonists. Seriously, I don't see anything like "Kiss the Girl" or "Someday My Prince Will Come" in classics like Peter Pan or The Jungle Book.
And I just wanted to say something that urks me. So many people seem to think Ariel, Belle, and Jasmine are so much better than Snow White, Cinderella, and Aurora. Why? Because they're feistier? Having a sassy personality does not make you better than someone who is more quiet or subdued.
I agree that this is a common misconception. Disobedience or a rebellious nature doesn't make one character anymore stronger than another. If I had to rate the characters myself, it would probably end up something like: 1. Cinderella, 2. Belle, 3. Ariel, 4. Snow White, 5. Jasmine and 6. Aurora.

In fact, making out that a woman is only heroic/strong when she's rebellious is probably more sexist than saying she should be the only one to clean house. In the same way that being a business woman doesn't automatically make you a better role-model than a stay-at-home mom/housewife.
I think the newer Princesses, are probably more well rounded characters than the earlier ones. I don't mean that in a negative way, it's just how the characters are written in different times. The Cinderella of Cinderella III seems much more resourceful and capable than in the original film, where she actually resolves to do something about her situation, whereas in the original film, when her stepsisters tear her dress up, she just breaks down in tears. I know that's a limitation of the story, but, it's still a defining character moment.
I don't necessarily think "breaking down" makes Cinderella lack strong character. Every girl in the "Princess" line cried at one point or another. Snow White cried after nearly being killed by the huntsman, Aurora cried after she'd found out she'd been lied to all her life, Ariel cried for her treasures and when she believed Eric was being married to another woman, Belle cried when losing her father, and Jasmine cried when she believed Aladdin was dead. They all have strong points that are shown in different ways and I don't expect anymore of them than I would myself. 'Cause, honestly, I could see myself crying in every one of those situations as well. Tears aren't a weakness. They're a reality.
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Re: What's Wrong With Disney Princess

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Disney Duster wrote:Oh, and one more thing. Since when is Belle smart? Because she reads? She read about "a beanstalk and an ogre", she read about "far of places, magic spells, a prince in disguise." She didn't read Aristotle! It annoys me when people characterize her as a philosipher or say she is intelligent just because she reads a lot. Please. She reads fairy tales. I'm not saying she's not smart, I'm just saying she's not smarter than any other princess just because you see her reading.
I think the whole "Smart Belle" stems from the fact that she truly enjoys reading. She shows an apparent thirst for knowledge, be it fiction or non-fiction, and the movie unfortunately only shows her actively reading a fairy tale. But it's through the fairy tales that her desire to see more of the world is born. The townspeople likely are literate, but they're all content enough with their lives that when they read, it's probably just a "well, that's a good story" feeling. With Belle, she reads a story, any story, and it dawns on her that there is more beyond her little town, and that the world is a large place just waiting to be explored. In both the town and the castle, she is essentially "trapped", and books are her escape. I mean, she rereads books (as mentioned during "Belle"), and she shows definite enthusiasm when Lumiere & Cogsworth mention a library in the castle (of course, that could also be argued as her way of sneaking away from them). Either way, Belle has a great interest in books because of the knowledge that they bring, and the possibilities of her imagination (what with reading books that have no pictures. ;) )

Also, when the Beast showed her the library, I'm sure she was thinking more beyond, "WOW, think of all the fairy tales in here!!!" :lol:

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Post by darth_deetoo »

Disney's Divinity wrote:Are the characters of Desperate Housewives really stereotypes or are you just making them that way for your convenience? Just wondering, because I think it's obvious to anyone's who watched the show that they are hardly that static.
You know, I've commented on this before (and the irony that I'm doing the same thing doesn't escape me), but I hate it when people quote a part of a person's post to push forward their own viewpoint or argument. If you'd quoted my whole post, it would also have included the line where I acknowledged that I hadn't seen the show for some time and apologised if the characters had developed beyond these stereotypes.

However, the fact remains, I don't think Desperate Housewives is a valid comparison for the Disney Princesses. And I think this whole argument is ridiculous. These characters are positive role models, and Disney is not to blame for any failings in the development of children, it's the parents who are being negligent in not providing a balanced life and education for their kids.

You know, I grew up in the 70's and 80's on a steady diet of Star Wars, Doctor Who, comic books, and yes, Disney. But I also had parents who taught me to read and write from an early age. Who took an interest in my schooling. And who made a point of always making sure I had a holiday every year, and usually had a day out every weekend, taking me all over the UK as I grew up. They encouraged me to enjoy TV and movies, but also ensured I got a balanced education and saw something of the country I lived in, and gained an education for that. I think the problem today is too many parents find a surrogate in the DVD player and TV, or the Playstation / Xbox (insert console of your choice), and don't encourage their kids to read, learn and take them places.

Unfortunately, things like Disney Princesses then become a target to blame for everything that's wrong with society and kids of today. To be honest, I just think this is wrong, and it's time people looked closer to home when looking to place blame.
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Post by Escapay »

darth_deetoo wrote:However, the fact remains, I don't think Desperate Housewives is a valid comparison for the Disney Princesses.
I don't think anyone was trying to make DH a valid comparison of the princesses. After all, the initial comparison was very much a tongue-in-cheek one by a comic strip artist, and Jay's suggestions for which princess was which character was probably just as comical.

Cinderella=Bree - because Bree is obsessed with cleaning, and Cinderella (like Snow White, but I'll get to her next) does nothing but clean.

Snow White=Lynette - because Lynette has to take care of a group of little ones...as does Snow White.

Ariel=Susan - because both are totally annoying and nobody likes them.

Belle=Gabriella - because both are extremely hot.

Aurora=Edie - because both sleep a lot and are drop-dead-gorgeous blondes. Also, both aren't as prominent in their respective movie/tv show, despite being considered one of the stars.

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Post by UmbrellaFish »

Escapay wrote:
Ariel=Susan - because both are totally annoying and nobody likes them.

Belle=Gabriella - because both are extremely hot.
I think you've got Ariel mixed up with Belle. Just kidding. Couldn't let my girl left defenceless. I do love Belle, though. She's probaly closer to my personality that any other Princess.

Anyway, yes, I agree, some of the princess merchandise does reprenst some wrong role models, but certainly not as bad as Bratz.
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Post by Disney's Divinity »

You know, I've commented on this before (and the irony that I'm doing the same thing doesn't escape me), but I hate it when people quote a part of a person's post to push forward their own viewpoint or argument. If you'd quoted my whole post, it would also have included the line where I acknowledged that I hadn't seen the show for some time and apologised if the characters had developed beyond these stereotypes.
The reason I didn't include your entire post is because if I did that for everything I quoted, things would become long and tedious. Even if I had quoted your post completely, I would've said the same thing. I read your post and still find it appalling that you think the characters are just "stereotypes" after watching through midway of the second season, when they clearly aren't.
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Post by PapiBear »

darth_deetoo wrote:
Disney's Divinity wrote:Are the characters of Desperate Housewives really stereotypes or are you just making them that way for your convenience? Just wondering, because I think it's obvious to anyone's who watched the show that they are hardly that static.
You know, I've commented on this before (and the irony that I'm doing the same thing doesn't escape me), but I hate it when people quote a part of a person's post to push forward their own viewpoint or argument. If you'd quoted my whole post, it would also have included the line where I acknowledged that I hadn't seen the show for some time and apologised if the characters had developed beyond these stereotypes.
It's called addressing a talking point, and preferring that others quote your entire post when addressing a specific talking point is really expecting too much. If you address 15 things in a post but I'm interested in specifically addressing just one of those 15 things in response, it's ludicrous to expect me to include your entire quote just because you'd like to have all your argumentative ground covered yet again. You've made your comment already; it's easily accessible. If anyone wishes to reference your entire post for contextual clarity, they can. It's egotistical and paranoid to think that anyone who reads my post, which excerpts one of your talking points, is going to somehow leap to the conclusion that that excerpt equates to the totality of your comment.

Plus, like you admitted, you do it too. So don't even try flying that crap around here. It's not going to work. We're not going to suddenly change up our discussion style because it placates your ego. GTFOOHWTS.
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Post by The Little Merboy »

Escapay wrote:Ariel=Susan - because both are totally annoying and nobody likes them.
:roll:
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Post by Escapay »

The Little Merboy wrote:
Escapay wrote:Ariel=Susan - because both are totally annoying and nobody likes them.
:roll:
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It's no secret that I'm hardly the biggest fan of that tiny fishgirl. :P

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AwallaceUNC: Would you prefer Substi-Blu-tiary Locomotion? :p

WIST #61:
TheSequelOfDisney: Damn, did Lin-Manuel Miranda go and murder all your families?
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