"Batman (1989)".

[slave2moonlight]

Though I worshipped her in Clueless for her hotness, Alicia was already losing her looks by this point.

Wow. What a difference a mere two whole years make in the eyes of slave2moonlight. Could you be any more shallow?

I personally think she's still just as hot as she was...ohmygodhasitbeenthatlong...13 years ago.

Escapay

Hey, celebs are paid to be perfect! Ha. That mole on her forehead keeps getting bigger too.

[slave2moonlight]

The cast includes some returning cast members, plus:

Joker: Crispin Glover
Mad Hatter: Paul Giamatti
Riddler: Johnny Depp
Catwoman: Claire Forlani
Harley Quinn: Sheri Moon
Clayface: Gary Sinise
Freeze: Christopher Lloyd
Killer Croc: Vin Diesel
TwoFace: Billy Zane
Poison Ivy: emergency choice of Lindsay Lohan, but I'll replace her with Isla Fisher now that I've thought of her
and Penguin: Paul Williams (is he still alive?)

If I redid this today, I'd probably change a few other cast members too, largely because of age and such. Like... maybe Lindy Booth as Harley Quinn. Sheri is perfect for the role (thinking of Baby in "House of 1,000 Corpses"), but I always felt she kinda looked old.

Going over the above list again for the first time in a long time...

Still LOVE the idea of using Christopher Lloyd, Paul Giamatti, Paul Williams, Gary Sinise, and Crispin Glover in those roles. Though, most if not all would probably be considered to old. Some of them probably just ARE flat out too old. But, I seem to remember a guy in the film "Ever After" who reminded me of a young Paul Williams. He played this little guy who did sneaky stuff for the wicked stepmother (if I'm thinking of the right film). Maybe he could work.

I do really like the idea of Lindy Booth as Harley now, and Isla as Ivy! I need to draw that or something! And it would be nice to see Lindy as a blonde again!

Vin Diesel is great for Killer Croc. I don't know how old Billy Zane is now, but I think he could've been good as TwoFace. Not that I feel these people are too old, I just feel like they're going to cast younger folks in these villain roles against this younger Batman, especially with the possibility of sequels and all.

I would probably recast Catwoman now. Maybe Rose McGowan? Actually, there are a variety of girls who could play that role now. Johnny is probably too old to play Riddler. He might make a better Clock King. I really don't know who should play the Riddler. Not that he's that young either, but it would be funny to see John Leguzamo(sp?) in the role! Though, he might get too campy.

[Escapay]

That mole on her forehead keeps getting bigger too.

Moles are cute! Especially this one!



And celebrities aren't paid to be perfect. They're paid to deliver convincing and realistic performances in theatre, television, and/or film. And if they're a good enough actor, the physical appearance is secondary and (be it appealing or repulsing) can serve to enhance and strengthen their character and role. You don't see girls falling over Steven Buscemi or calling him drop-dead-gorgeous and he's a remarkable actor. And some of the most "beautiful" people in Hollywood are as dumb as rocks and "act" even worse. Paging Hilary Duff...



Escapay

[slave2moonlight]

Oooh, and I was just getting around to doing your fan art request. I was just kidding about the "paid to be perfect" thing, duh (though some are), and I'll ignore the insult towards Duff since you referred to her as one of the most beautiful people in Hollywood.

But girls should not have moles.

[slave2moonlight]

Reality Check:




Anyone who keeps that in their pocket has a problem.

[Escapay]

Oooh, and I was just getting around to doing your fan art request.

I totally forgot about that!

I was just kidding about the "paid to be perfect" thing, duh (though some are),

I figured as much, but wanted to go off on a mini rant anyway, mainly out of my frustration with daytime television and their misguided perceptions that the audience would rather watch talentless and emptyheaded "actors" take acting classes on the air while TIIC decide to fire anybody over 45 in order to save some money.

Anyone who keeps that in their pocket has a problem.

Some things just look better in cartoon form.

Escapay

[slave2moonlight]

TIIC?

Well, I have to say this about actors, even the good-looking ones. I have a lot more respect for their intelligence levels after spending time around some when I was getting involved with independent film a couple years ago. They're often not the best grounded people in the world emotionally, morally, etc..., but if you are truly empty-headed, you either don't get far or don't last long, and if you think there's "bad acting" on TV right now, you haven't seen REAL bad acting.

[Escapay]

TIIC?

TIIC = The Idiots In Charge

Or to those in daytime television circles, people like: Brian Frons, Jill Farren Phelps, Dena Higley, Robert Guza, Charles Pratt, Megan McTavish, James E. Reilly, and of course, whoever is the head honcho for NBC Daytime.

Escapay

[slave2moonlight]

Ah. I don't really follow the daytime stuff. I usually get to bed sometime from dawn to 10 a.m.

[Lazario]

Jack Nicholson will always be the superior Joker over Heath Ledger's version.

This is who Heath Ledger should have been playing:

<img src="http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr50 ... kermac.jpg" width="230" height="371" border="0">

An evil RONALD McDONALD!

[Siren]

I hated Jack's Joker from the moment I saw it. He was too old, too fat, and it was Jack Nicholsan playing the Joker. He was too much like the campy Ceaser Joker. I never liked Michael Keaton as Bruce Wayne/Batman either.

[Lazario]

I hated Jack's Joker from the moment I saw it.

Doesn't matter, he's still better than Ledger's Ronald McDonald on crack Joker.

He was too old, too fat, and it was Jack Nicholsan playing the Joker. He was too much like the campy Ceaser Joker.

Doesn't matter, he's still the best Joker.

I never liked Michael Keaton as Bruce Wayne/Batman either.

I liked him better than the other actors. I mean, maybe in a way Adam West will always be Batman. When Michael Keaton dies, they'll write in the headlines, "Mr. Mom Kicks the Cleaner Bucket" (or something to that effect). When George Clooney dies, they'll write, "The Bad-Boy of E.R. Rides Into the Sunset" (or something to that effect). When Christian Bale dies, they'll write him up as "American Psycho." When Val Kilmer dies, they'll write, "..." ... "Old, Handsome Guy Dies" (). But Michael Keaten was the most serious and had the fewest one-liners. And starred in the better movies of the original series. A series, without which, there'd no "new" movies, Katie Holmes wouldn't be famous right now, and: Eric Roberts, Rutger Hauer, and Anthony Michael Hall wouldn't even have jobs!

[ajmrowland]

Ledger's Joker's the BOMB! Jack's Joker does not hold a candle(though it's not a bad performance).

BTW, this is a thread about a movie. Shouldn't it be in the Movies/music/tv section of the forum?

[xxhplinkxx]

...

Doesn't matter, just his opinion.


I agree with Siren. While I do love Jack, his "Joker" was just that: Jack Nicholson as Joker.

[MagicMirror]

No idea who's better, but I do prefer Jack's Joker. A villain who you laugh along with, and then feel ashamed of yourself for doing so. The '89 Joker seemed much more of a pure manifestation of a sort of demonic id in contrast to the controlled menace of Batman. A lot like Frederich March's Mr. Hyde in 1931.

Heath Ledger's Joker felt much more of the Hannibal-Lecter type. I could never take his appearance seriously - looked a little like he'd snuck into his mother's make-up drawer. Still, a very good performance, the best in the film, deserving of a lot of praise (though I do think fans are in the habit of grotesquely overdoing it).

Similarly I prefer Keaton to Bale as Batman. Keaton felt like more of a sheer force. Again, I have trouble taking Bale's version seriously, primarily because he sounds like a Dalek with a smoking problem.

The flaw in Begins and TDK for me (though they're good films) is that they are set in what is intended to be the 'real world' as opposed to the sort of expressionist neverwhere of the Burton films. Batman could never exist in our world. Only in Burton's world can I take the idea of a millionaire dressing up as a giant bat to fight criminals seriously, because the mise en scene reflects Batman and vice versa.

On B'89: The best Gotham; an excellent score; Jack on top form; but the script seems to have a couple of holes in it. I generally give it a score of 8/10.

My favourite Batman film is definitely Returns, which really seems to fire on all cylinders. Certainly the best in terms of transcending the boundaries of 'mere blockbuster' and becoming art. I think it's Burton's second-best film (behind Ed Wood).

[ajmrowland]

You forget that the "real world" intent was for the backstory to be filled in. I enjoy the recent Batman films for being a good introduction for non-fans(myself being one).

[Siren]

I read your's and other's love for Jack's Joker, Lazario.

Its my opinion Jack was not the best. Its your opinion he is. I just don't care enough to argue.

IMO the best Joker is Mark Hamill

[xxhplinkxx]

IMO the best Joker is Mark Hamill

YES! Definitely, all the way YES!!!

[PixarFan2006]

I think both Ledger and Nicholson both do a good job playing the Joker. I felt that Burton's Batman was pretty good. I liked the visual style of it as well as the score.

[Lazario]

Ledger's Joker's the BOMB! Jack's Joker does not hold a candle(though it's not a bad performance).

BTW, this is a thread about a movie. Shouldn't it be in the Movies/music/tv section of the forum?

This is another one of those threads made before Movies/Music/TV had its' own.

And, I really don't know how Ledger's Joker relates to the original Joker from TV, the older movie(s), or the comic book. But Jack Nicholson's Joker is the best. Ledger's Joker is merely the best villain to come out of film in the last decade and a half or so. He was so refreshing to a lot of people, or they're in love with Ledger, that to them it's easy for them to say he's the best this, that, or the other thing. Jack's Joker is simply the best. Because of what Burton's Batman film did that no other film in so much history was able to do - take the traditional morality of a movie out when it showed its' villain doing evil. Now, I'm not talking about this like it were a mafia movie. On that level, The Godfather did the same damn thing - just showed you criminals doing bad things to express their character, with no real morality catching up with them. I'm talking about this like it were a horror movie. Jack's Joker is essentially a Horror Movie villain. A psychotic killer with a twist. He's an artist, a chemist, and a street criminal all in one. But the emphasis on the street crime is diminished. He's much more fascinating than Ledger's Joker on an artistic level, not a realistic one. And movies are more about art than realism. They always have been and always will be.

People only prefer Ledger's Joker because he's a more inspired modern portrait of a villain. No I don't expect Jack's Joker to appeal to more people. If anything, that's exactly what makes him genius and Ledger just a tragic workaholic who basically killed himself playing this role - another reason many people have for prefering him over any other Joker. Sadly, I stick to my belief: if a person thinks acting is worth dying for, they had to learn the hard way that they were wrong.

...

Doesn't matter, just his opinion.

That had better be a tongue-in-cheek, trying to just be cute, "in-jest because I-know-you" comment. Because, you just said everyone else's opinion matters but mine. Which I don't think you meant. But is the only thing that can be assumed by that statement. And is flat-out ridiculous.

I agree with Siren. While I do love Jack, his "Joker" was just that: Jack Nicholson as Joker.

Oh give me a break. I am not a fan of Jack Nicholson. But it's blazingly obvious that millions of fans of The Dark Knight were already in love with Heath Ledger. So - exactly where does that make him better than Nicholson?

You forget that the "real world" intent was for the backstory to be filled in. I enjoy the recent Batman films for being a good introduction for non-fans(myself being one).

The recent Batman films are clearly, among other things, an attack on what Joel Schumacher did to the series: over-stylizing it with too many flashy colors and garish sets, dialing up the one-liners and down the sense of realism. Which itself was pretty stupid. But was also a good signal to filmmakers that there was very little left to do with this set-up. Plus, showing us that some things make better comic books than they do movies. Or, there's only one great filmmaker at the head of this series: Burton. Nolan may have made it appealing for the new-millennium audiences. But, as for something that will really last... Begins & Dark Knight are just louder, noisier, more bass-heavy blaster crowd-pleasing films. Neither of which makes me cheer nor makes me think as much as what Burton did.