darth_deetoo wrote:people seem more interested in discussing Roy Disney's divorce than the merits of the Disney classics over the years.
This is actually the first time I've treaded into this thread, and I find the posts to be quite fascinating as both a dissection and appreciation for the Disney Animated Classics. I hope the lack of discussion hasn't translated to you as a lack of interest; given the number of views versus the number of replies (as of this post: 501 vs. 19), I'm sure there's been more of members reading the topic than discussing it.
I will try and comment on each of the films over time, but it's quite late for me at the moment (nearly 5 am EST), so I'll have to cut this post short for now.
Escapay
WIST #60:
AwallaceUNC: Would you prefer Substi-Blu-tiary Locomotion?
WIST #61:
TheSequelOfDisney: Damn, did Lin-Manuel Miranda go and murder all your families?
The point is that of the 19 replies, probably about 15 of them have been my continued comments. I'd really hoped the thread would have taken off more than this, and got some discussion going, which would be a bit more worthwhile than topics such as Roy Disney's divorce or the eternal slipcover debate.
It's difficult to keep a thread going yourself, without other people contributing to it. I'd also hoped that other people's comments and thoughts might make me re-evaluate some of my thoughts about some of the films, as hopefully, my comments might make others think differently about some of the films.
I know there are other threads discussing particular movies on their own, but I was going for a more general overview of the films from Snow White to Chicken Little, with possibly a few diversions along the way. I think I'd realised a week or so in the ambition of the project, and so I'd moved back from the idea of also tackling some of the sequels and live action films, but I was still intending to include the Pixar output when I get there.
I'm glad that people have enjoyed reading the thread, but I think it really needs input from others as well. There gets to be a point where there's very little to say about some films. A case in point, I watched The Sword in the Stone too yesterday, and really can't come up with an awful lot to say.
I feel it's a decidedly average film on the whole. There are some parts of the film that shine through a bit - I thought some of the animation in the underwater section where Wart is menaced by the pike is quite impressive, the pike was animated with an awesome realism. I quite like the squirrel section, and the Merlin / Min battle is of course a classic. But the overriding feeling I get with The Sword in the Stone is that a movie based on the Arthur legends could be much more epic in scope, and it could provide one of the most evil villains in Disney history with Morgan Le Fay, instead we get a crazy comedy witch, the story is cut short when Arthur draws Excalibur from the stone, and instead we get a cutesy dallying through the woods with Merlin educating Arthur. The plot just doesn't really go anywhere, and overall it's a bit of a disappointment. But having said that, most attempts to bring the Arthur legend to the screen have disappointed in some area.
The animation has also sunk into a safe Disney style at this point. There's nothing particularly remarkable about it, and all the films of this era - 101 Dalmatians, Aristocats, Sword in the Stone, Robin Hood, even the animation in the likes of Mary Poppins and Bedknobs and Broomsticks - have this same feel about them. It's not to say there aren't films I don't like from this era, but I think the films which really stand out are those with really strong musical scores, and I think The Sword in the Stone is really lacking in the musical department, and the plot department.
A film based on Arthur could have been so much more. It's not that I dislike The Sword in the Stone, it's just that it all comes across as being a bit - so what?
Okay, just watched The Jungle Book. Probably one of the most popular of the Disney films, and I believe it's also generally regarded as being the last one that Walt worked on, although he died before it was completed.
It's always been a particular favourite of mine. It suffers I suppose from having the same style of animation that has really set in at the Disney studio's since 101 Dalmatians, rather than carving out it's own look, however, here, I think it suits the characters. It's a bit strange that some of the characters are very anthropomorphised, like Baloo and King Louie, yet some are much more animal like, such as Bagheera and Shere Khan. But the approach works, and the animation in this case is always accomplished and entertaining.
The film's obviously helped along a lot by the music, and the songs in The Jungle Book, with the possible exception of Snow White, are probably the most famous of all the Disney songs - certainly until the 80's and 90's and the likes of The Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin and The Lion King raised the bar for animated musicals.
I'm not particularly going to go on about particular scenes in The Jungle Book, we all have our favourites, and most of us are no doubt going to cite things like The Bear Necessities and I Wanna Be Like You. One thing that did strike me about the movie is how similar in structure and feel it is to Alice in Wonderland. This probably owes a lot to the style of both the original works by Lewis Carroll and Rudyard Kipling. Instead of a strong overall narrative running through the film, we're generally treated to a series of misadventures where our hero (Mowgli) or heroine (Alice) are propelled through a fascinating world meeting all sorts of characters along the way. At the heart of it all is a big villain who we will meet at the end, Shere Khan in the Jungle Book and the Queen of Hearts in Alice.
Shere Khan's presence is felt much more in The Jungle Book, but it's interesting that we don't actually encounter the tiger until more than halfway through the film.
Certainly things are back on track with The Jungle Book after The Sword in the Stone. I'm not too sure about the films on the horizon though. With perhaps the exception of The Aristocats, Robin Hood and Pooh, I've rarely watched the movies of the 70's and early 80's. Though this might be a good thing, because I remember very little of some of these films.
101 Dalmatians was, in my opinion, the last Disney film for quite a stretch to put keen emphasis upon the narrative itself, and I've always considered it to be one of Disney's strongest and most engaging. As I've commented in another recent thread, the Sword in the Stone marked the beginning of a succession of films consisting mainly of minor encounters linked together by a common cast of characters, and which were more reliant upon some other defining feature to move them along. As you said, this was hardly a new thing, given the structure of Alice and Wonderland, but from this point on audiences were pretty much stuck with it until at least the Rescuers in 1977. I haven't seen the Sword in the Stone for a fair number of years, but if I remember correctly, its emphasis was placed firmly upon the slapstick comedy above all else and, with its so-so animation, middling music and mostly inconsequental storyline, overall it strikes me as being the most lightweight and least satisfactory of all the films made under Walt's reign (barring possibly Make Mine Music, which I haven't yet seen).
What keeps the Jungle Book so engaging, despite its similarly episodic story structure, is the music and the voice-overs, the latter of which play a huge role in making the animal characters so memorable. If you look, you'll see a similar pattern in the Aristocats. It moves at a much more reserved pace than the Jungle Book, but it's essentially the same kettle of fish, with the central characters heading out across a terrain and encountering supporting character after supporting character, intercut with small scenes of Edgar trying to retrieve evidence from the scene of the crime. A large amount the Aristocats' appeal most certainly lies in the music and in the voice-overs which are, IMO, all uniformly strong (and before anyone gets too critical, I personally rate "Everybody wants to be a Cat" as a stronger track than everything on the Jungle Book's playlist...which I still adore, naturally). Easily head and shoulders above what Robin Hood had to offer, in all departments...hey, I don't mean to be stepping on anyone's toes here, but dear god does that movie make me feel depressed.
Well, I watched The Aristocats this afternoon, and really enjoyed it. It's been a long time since I've watched this one - in fact it might even be on the original release of the Gold Collection disc. I agree that the music really carries this one, although I think my favourite is Thomas O'Malley rather than Everyone Wants To Be A Cat.
One thing which struck me with this though was how Disney at this time was relying heavily on the same voice talent for their films, Phil Harris returns fresh from The Jungle Book, and indeed would return in Robin Hood too. I recognised one of the dog's voices, Napoleon I think, as the weasely tones of the Sheriff of Nottingham from Robin Hood. Although I suppose the same thing had happened previously to some degree with Kathryn Beaumont and Bobby Driscoll.
Again I think this emphasises in some ways the rut the studio was getting in at this time. Even before his death, it's a well known fact that Walt Disney was spending less and less time on animation, with his new Disneyland Park and Florida Project capitalising on his time, in addition to the new medium of TV.
Nevertheless, The Aristocats does remain a fun and engaging film. I can see your thinking with the series of encounters, applying to The Aristocats too. Despite misgivings of some of the films of that era though, they can still be entertaining in the right frame of mind. I'm a bit surprised though at how poorly Robin Hood is generally held. I've always found it to be a fun, diverting film, if not particularly original in either storyline or execution. But that's a discussion for another day.
Just wanted to comment, that I've watched the movies in order like you are doing now and had the same reaction to the late 60's through the 70's era that you are having. The rut that they were in, as artistically as well as story wise would really continue as far as the Great Mouse Detective as far as I am concerned.
Additionally, when watching any older Disney products, from live action, to animation, to television, even the golden age of the Disneyland theme park, it is very apparent as to what Walt was hands on with and really devoting himself to.
Finally, when at Disneyland, I'd like to recommend the movie showing in the Main Street Opera House, as well as the preshow room, what a wonderful place to explore!!! Fantastic models and such.
Also be sure to check out the Disney Gallery above Pirates of the Caribbean for wonderful art prints.
Where's the rest of Elfego Baca and the Swamp Fox?
I think my main issue with Robin Hood, aside from the animation problems, is that it contains A LOT of humour that makes me cringe, particularly whenever Prince John sucks his thumb and whines, "mommy". That, and the music is pretty flimsy. Still, despite what I said in my previous post, the Disney movie which most dampens my spirits is actually the Great Mouse Detective. I'm not sure if I consider it to be any worse a film than Robin Hood overall, but there is something about its bleak, grimey tone and backdrop which I find somewhat discouraging...Vincent Price's voice work as Professor Ratigan is the only bright spark there for me. But heck, I realise we've gotten way ahead here...we're still in the 1970s, the first sector of Disney's so-called "dark ages".
The aforementioned films aside, I think most films from this period are pretty underrated in some way or other (well, perhaps not Winnie the Pooh - he still sells way too merchandise to fall into that catagory) and often rather unfairly maligned. It's easy to pick fault with certain aspects of them, the weaker animation quality being a rather obvious one, but overall I think the vast majority of them provide enjoyable and engaging enough entertainment, and in the case of the Fox and the Hound, could still provide quite a powerful emotional punch (I know, I'm getting ahead again).
Well I watched Robin Hood last night. I actually quite like Robin Hood for what it is, it's a fairly simple, fun, story - it actually reminds me a bit of the Hanna Barbera cartoons a bit more than Disney, with their anthropomorphised characters.
I've not really got a lot to say about the film beyond that. It was probably the first Disney film I saw in the cinema. I vaguely remember seeing it, must have only been about 4 or 5.
It was the new 'Most Wanted Edition' I watched last night. I do have the old pan and scan Gold Collection disc too. To be honest, I've got mixed feelings about this new transfer. There are some long shots in the film, with the animals marching for example, which I thought really benefitted from the widescreen presentation, but there are a lot of other shots which I felt seemed really cramped vertically, with tops of heads slightly cropped. Not really sure about it at all, and if they do it with other films that were made in the academy ratio, I hope they keep both versions on the disc, or make them 2 disc sets.
The other thing I've never noticed before, and it's probably apparent with me watching the films in order is the blatant swipes from other films. The 'Phony King of England' segment, has swipes from Snow White (Maid Marian's dancing), The Aristocrats (various animals playing music) and the worst one - The Jungle Book (Little John and Lady Cluck are blatant swipes of Baloo and King Louie). Don't think I'll ever be able to watch that section in the same way again.
But I thought the music of the film was quite jolly and fun, it's a good humoured, light-hearted piece, and an interesting take on the Robin Hood legend by transforming all the characters into animals - at least it's a fresher take on a legend than Sword in the Stone proved to be.
Next up is another old favourite - Winnie the Pooh. I was actually thinking the other day though, that what with The Aristocats, Robin Hood and Pooh - how much I actually do like these films of the 70's. They aren't classics by a long stretch, but they are good natured, entertaining films, and probably deserve to be a bit more highly regarded than they actually are.
darth_deetoo wrote:It was the new 'Most Wanted Edition' I watched last night. I do have the old pan and scan Gold Collection disc too.
*cough*open matte*cough*
darth_deetoo wrote:The other thing I've never noticed before, and it's probably apparent with me watching the films in order is the blatant swipes from other films. The 'Phony King of England' segment, has swipes from Snow White (Maid Marian's dancing), The Aristocrats (various animals playing music) and the worst one - The Jungle Book (Little John and Lady Cluck are blatant swipes of Baloo and King Louie). Don't think I'll ever be able to watch that section in the same way again.
Plus, the ending turns Cinderella in her carriage to Robin and Marian in their simplified carriage.
Escapay
WIST #60:
AwallaceUNC: Would you prefer Substi-Blu-tiary Locomotion?
WIST #61:
TheSequelOfDisney: Damn, did Lin-Manuel Miranda go and murder all your families?
darth_deetoo wrote:
The other thing I've never noticed before, and it's probably apparent with me watching the films in order is the blatant swipes from other films. The 'Phony King of England' segment, has swipes from Snow White (Maid Marian's dancing), The Aristocrats (various animals playing music) and the worst one - The Jungle Book (Little John and Lady Cluck are blatant swipes of Baloo and King Louie). Don't think I'll ever be able to watch that section in the same way again.
Ha ha ha, I remember when I was about 6 or 7 and happened to watch my Disney sing-along video, which contained Everybody wants to be a Cat, and Robin Hood upon the same day. I noticed which bits had been lifted from the Aristocats song sequence (though the Snow White and Jungle Book bits still went above my head back then), and got really indignant about it. "How DARE they steal from the Aristocats!" I cried. My brother was totally unconcerned. He just informed me that since the films came from the same production company they were allowed to steal from each other all they wanted.
Since you've been watching the films in order, darth, I wondered if you noticed the small moment from the Aristocats which was lifted from 101 Dalmatians? When Thomas O'Malley grabs Marie and lifts her onto the back of the moving truck, its detail-for-detail exactly as Pongo did for a straggling puppy during the lorry escape sequence in his film. I noticed this a while ago, and thought it was kinda funny.
Well I watched Pooh last night. Always love this film, Tigger has to be one of my favourite animated characters, and it's in this film he really shines.
I actually decided to try watching it in a cropped 16:9 ratio after seeing Robin Hood in this format, and on the whole it worked quite well, probably a bit better than Robin Hood actually, although there was the odd scene which felt a little bit too cramped.
I really love this film though, from Pooh's little black rain cloud, to Tigger's exuberance. Particularly love the solution to Tigger bouncing too high and having the narrator turn the book on it's side so he can climb down the text.
I was also a bit surprised at just how many songs there were in Pooh. Admittedly many of them are very short, poem like songs - always tend to forget about Heffalumps and Woozels.
I know CG (can I call you that Caballero Girl - it's a lot quicker to type ) had suggested the Pooh franchise had been milked a bit too much, but you've just got to love this film.
In fact, a bit of a re-evaluation of what my favourites are at this point in my wander through the archives would probably have me picking out:-
Snow White
Cinderella
Alice in Wonderland
Peter Pan
Sleeping Beauty
The Jungle Book &
Winnie the Pooh
) had suggested the Pooh franchise had been milked a bit too much, but you've just got to love this film.