HD-DVD - Oh dear. You're all going to be disappointed...

[2099net]

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/33607.html

Looks like the HD-DVD is not going to be the holy grail most of the members of this forum seem to think - selected highlights from the article:

The DVD Forum, the body that oversees the DVD specification, has decided to stick with red laser technology and current storage capacities rather than make the move to blue light and more capacious discs.

This means it will rely on a more efficient compression algorithm to store the higher resolution picture... not more storage capacity. So don't expect many more (if more at all) supplements on HD-DVD discs. Especially when the next paragraph is taken into consideration;

Instead, it will offer Internet integration to tempt upgrade-hungry consumers.

What the?!? If I buy something, I want to own it, not download it every time I want to see it.

skip...

As it stands, the next generation of DVD will work just like today's format, but with greater Internet integration. Many DVDs already include links to web sites, but they're included in a separate DVD-ROM partition on the disc that can only be read by a computer-hosted DVD drive.

The next version of the spec. will allow content creators to build those links directly into the scripts that tell a DVD player how to show the movie. The idea is that 'Enhanced DVD' players will have Net access built-in, either directly or via a home network, enabling consumers to access extra material at will.

The format will also support the use of "digital keys", as the report puts it, to authorise the connection to web sites.

Both technologies are expected to appear in product next year, which means the spec. isn't that far off completion.

Stupid.

Put them together and it's clear the move is about shifting the DVD spec. away from a simple storage medium to a kind of digital theatre ticket where purchasing the DVD buys you entry to the content - which will almost certainly be stored someplace else.

Worrying. How long before pay-per-view?

But how to provide it without it being ripped off? Full-scale DRM is an option, but one consumers are unlikely to support, even those who aren't in the habit of filching films off the Internet. The solution then is to provide content on the Net, but through a controlled access system. Playing an 'Enhanced DVD' for the first time might begin a background process that links a disc ID to a player ID and records the connection on a server somewhere. Play the disc elsewhere and the system spots the fact and blocks access to the content.

Such an approach is likely to be used to deliver extras, which some buyers will want and many others won't. But extend the idea just a little and all the content, including the movie itself, comes down the wire to the player owned by the consumer who bought the disc. In essence the DVD is nothing but a entry ticket, perhaps with some free content on board that the industry doesn't mind giving away.

I have read this a few times, and don't quite know what they are on about. Is this some advanced form of regional locking? How will it know if you decide to buy a new player? Will all your discs become locked? What about playing discs on the player in your bedroom rather than the living room? Is it just me, or does this sound stupid?

Of course, the next generation of the DVD standard is unlikely to deliver all this, at least not at the outset, but it does appear to put in place the foundations for such a structure.

So it looks like I was wrong in my earlier HD-DVD posts. Disney (and other studios) do have an incentive to move to HD-DVD ASAP - so they can get more control over their product.

Enjoy your 2nd Edition Platinum releases on HD-DVD. If Disney let you view them that is.

[Luke]

That's just ridiculous. "Advances" in technology that benefit controls and look to integrating ad-based Internet technology with a DVD you've already purchased. How utterly stupid in every regard. I do hope that either enough fuss is raised for them to change their plans or that their format falls flat on its face if it really is in many ways a step down from DVD.

A superior format might succeed, but is this superior -- it seems silly to stick with red laser technology and look for new compression-saving techniques, and it seems silly to "tempt upgrade-hungry customer."

[jabroni76]

yeah, I was all excited about HD-DVD... key word being was. Now, after reading this I'm really considering dishing all cash possible for the Disney movies, and buying a good DVD player soon (a year or two). That really sucks though, how their doing this to technology. It is in a way increasing technology, but then it is also going back. I dunno. I hope HD-DVD doesn't work out!

[indianajdp]

In the words of former Indianapolis Colts Head Coach, Jim Mora:
"We couldn't do diddly poo!"

...ooops, sorry...wrong quote

Meant this one:
"That sucks!"

Without going into an all-out rant I will address this from a parental standpoint. What about the fact that so many great DVD packages keep kids enthralled (and distracted) on long road trips? How are we supposed to get all of this enjoyment (aside from the film) through compact or vehicle-installed DVD players?

[BasilOfBakerStreet427]

Sounds a lot like DIVX.You pay to watch your disc every time.It sucks.

[2099net]

Sounds a lot like DIVX.You pay to watch your disc every time.It sucks.

Well it does say:

Of course, the next generation of the DVD standard is unlikely to deliver all this, at least not at the outset, but it does appear to put in place the foundations for such a structure.

but yes - they seem to be wanting to go that way.

I dunno. DVD is the best thing that ever happened to the studios - their revenues are way up - thanks to DVD. And now they seem determined to spoil it.

[Mermaid Kelly]

I agree, it all sounds REALLY STUPID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It won't be for a few years though, right? 2008 at least?

[MickeyMouseboy]

In the words of former Indianapolis Colts Head Coach, Jim Mora:
"We couldn't do diddly poo!"

...ooops, sorry...wrong quote

Meant this one:
"That sucks!"

Without going into an all-out rant I will address this from a parental standpoint. What about the fact that so many great DVD packages keep kids enthralled (and distracted) on long road trips? How are we supposed to get all of this enjoyment (aside from the film) through compact or vehicle-installed DVD players?

A wireless Internet, indy! you get roaming fees for accessing the disc on your car player!

[badboy2102]

HD-DVDs won't be out for sometime. There needs to be a set standard for HD-DVDs. We don't even have a standard for DVDs. Only CD have that standard everyone uses. But I have been reading about HD-DVDs and it seems that it would kill the DVD market. Millions of people invested way too much money on their DVDs. Why make them start all over? So alot of companys are developing HD-DVD players. Which would turn a standard DVD in HD. But the catch is you need a HDTV. No I am not talking about Progressive Scan. Something far much better. So me personally I am not to worried.

[2099net]

One of the reasons for the DVD forum choosing the red laser for HD-DVD is that the players will be backwards compatible with normal DVD discs - you won't need to 'start again' as all your discs will be playable on a HD-DVD player.

There is a format for DVDs - it's defined and controlled by the DVD Forum. Any player or DVD that has the DVD logo on it, is licenced by the DVD Forum and should play with not problems - I say should because the DVD Forum didn't have enough test players and discs available when the product was launched which is the reason there's so many problem discs/players avaialble. They will not make the same mistake this time. (and there's still problems with unlicenced cheap players being sold from Asia)

As for not being available - they will be available next year. The DVD Forum is about to finalise the specification, and some manufacturers, working with the Forum have almost finished their players. They're just providing feedback to the forum so that any of their additions and ideas can be worked into the spec, if the forum thinks it will be a good idea.

Both technologies are expected to appear in product next year, which means the spec. isn't that far off completion.

Of course, to get the full benefit, you need a HD-TV, but the players will also downsample the HD image to normal NTSC resolution, meaning HD-DVDs can be played and displayed on normal televisions.

Personally, I think this sounds like a half-way house - a kludge for HD-DVD. I expect 5 or so years after these players come out, a proper HD-DVD format will be launched with less compression and additional storage. It's probably a trial run before the proper HD-DVD release - to test both the technology and the public's acceptance of such a "enhanced" delivery system?

Either way, if this is being released, it will probably delay 'proper' HD-DVD by a few years (look for around 2010 now) and I expect any new generation of DVD players will have some form of DRM (Digital Rights Management), most likely in connection with the Internet.

[2099net]

Right, after a little more research, I discovered the following depressing information:

At the moment the compression algorithms for the HD-DVD are to complex to be done in real-time by any home system. (Also, it is predicted it will take approximately 3-4 years before prices of chips come down enough that this is possible). So that means it will take 3-4 years before recordable HD-DVDs come to market. When, if they went for Blue Ray and MPEG 2 compression they could be recordable from the start.

However, Sony (and a few other manufacturers) are pushing for Blue-Ray laser technology to be used on HD-DVDs. This means increased storage (vastly increased storage is possible, but it looks likely we're talking 4-8 times the capacity of a DVD9) which means MPEG2 could be used to store the movies. This means that from the start HD-DVD could have (1) much more space for supplements and soundtracks and (2) could be recordable from the start. It really sounds like a no-brainer.

Apparently the DVD Forum is against Blue Ray as it would mean having 2 or 3 lasers in the player – one for the new HD-DVDs, one for normal DVDs and one for normal CDs (although Sony have managed to combine DVD and CD reading onto one multipurpose laser – they developed for and used it in their PS2s to save manufacturing costs. I assume Sony have the patent on this technology, which explains why no other company has done so too). So all that worries the DVD Forum is the potential cost in other words.

Until recently it was taken that Sony were going to go ahead and release their Blue Ray recordable players and support the format with titles from Columbia's libarary. Sort of like the VHS / BETAMAX battle when home video first came out. Now, given Sony's financial problems this is looking less likely.

None of the official news sites (like Reuters etc) have any news like the one posted on The Register, but some do have stories from the past 3-4 months hinting that the specification would be announced early 2004. So I guess it's the real deal.

[2099net]

Now it's all getting interesting..

http://www.eet.com/sys/news/OEG20031113S0028

It appears the previously quoted news article was wrong in some respects... but correct in others.

It appears the "Legacy compatible" system will include increased storage and new codecs (sadly, possibly Windows Media 9 - I'm loath to have Microsoft get their fingers into another pie).

The previous report seem to be based on the offshoot technology - this will stick to the old MPEG2 encoding and offer downloadable content.

[ArtOfDisney]

This all seems pretty stupid. They are just trying to control everything. Technology advancements? There is a time for real advancements, like Mini DVDs, or the DVD-Cam that's out there. But this new DVD report stuff is just ridiculous.

[2099net]

Well, I doubt it's accuracy now. But I'm sure 50% or more is true.

[Squirrel]

In the words of former Indianapolis Colts Head Coach, Jim Mora:
"We couldn't do diddly poo!"

"Playoffs?! Playoffs?! We just want to win a game!"



Back to topic...

So you could play regular DVD's in these HD-DVD players/things? I'm finally starting to get a nice movie collection, and I don't want to have to replace them all in just a few years...but I'm not very good at understanding technology. It just seems that DVD's are finally becoming popular, and now they're going to replace them with an upgrade.

And will the HD-DVD's have an even clearer picture? Or just more storage? I'm a little confused. Sorry.

[2099net]

So you could play regular DVD's in these HD-DVD players/things? I'm finally starting to get a nice movie collection, and I don't want to have to replace them all in just a few years...but I'm not very good at understanding technology. It just seems that DVD's are finally becoming popular, and now they're going to replace them with an upgrade.

And will the HD-DVD's have an even clearer picture? Or just more storage? I'm a little confused. Sorry.

Yes, you will be able to play normal DVDs in whatever is chosen as the next-generation of DVD players. The DVD Forum is championing a format which can even be replicated on the same manufacturing machines as current DVDs.

HD-DVDs will have a clearer picture, but you will need HD-TV to see the benefit. Otherwise the images will be scaled down (similar to how Anamorphic DVDs are scaled down for letterbox display on 4:3 televisions).

Both systems being proposed will increase the storage, but the increased storage doesn't mean the HD-DVD will be able to hold more information and supplements. Remember, when you double the sides of a square, the area quadruples, it doesn't double. (1x1 = 1, 2x2 = 4) The same is true for HD-TV - increase the resolution of the image and the total area of the image increases by a greater amount.

I looks like both systems are aiming to stick to the roughly 3 hour limit for material on a disc. The DVD Forum specification does this with increased storage and better compression codecs, while the non-DVD forum method does this with even bigger storage increases, but sticks to using the same compression codecs.