I Would Like to Know... (Who Here is Gay?)

[Prince Eric]

Lazario, what he was trying to say is that it's a choice. People who say they are homosexual because they were born that way are just in denial, which I find confusing IF there's nothing to be ashamed of. It's been proven scientifically that there is no gene or biological factor in homosexuality. It's a CHOICE.

[Sunset Girl]

Actually, it's been debated by many whether or not it's a choice. I believe that it may be in some cases, but for the most part it's just something that's born into you.

I work with kids starting from the grade of kindergarten. Even at that young age where they know nothing of sexuality, you can tell which ones are going to "turn out" gay. I believe it's born into people. In fact, I can look back upon my own experiences in grade school and you could tell which kids were going to turn out gay or promiscuous by the time we hit high school.

As for myself, I'm sure that I was born with bisexual tendencies. I remember even from a very young age that I always had some sort of attraction to women. I'm not sure if they would have been fully unleashed or not if I hadn't been molested in my childhood, thus scewing my view of men, but here I am. It took me years to figure it out completely, let alone acknowledge it. But yes, I am bi, and this was not a choice I made. I don't do anything to hurt anyone. I remain monogomous. I do volunteer work. I offer counsel to troubled children. And there's nothing anyone here can say that will make me believe that my sexuality makes me a bad person.

Lazario is right about straight people; I think they take their sexuality for granted because they are in the "norm." Straight people are not discriminated from their jobs because of their sexuality, they are not frowned upon by general society, they are not disowned from their churches or their families because of who they are.

How many people here made a concious choice to be straight, anyway? Or was that urge born into you?

We are supposed to be free to be who we are in this country as long as we are not infringing upon the rights of others, but I get the feeling that we are free to be who we are as long as we're like the accepted average American, married in a heterosexual relationship with 2.5 kids attending church every Sunday. But sorry, I'm gonna be who I am. I wish sexual orientation didn't have to be such a big deal in the first place. Keep in mind that people have lost their lives to be who they were, regardless of whether it had to with sexual orientation, religion, race, etc., so yes, I think people need to be communicate. People need to be heard. Hatred gets us absolutely nowhere.

[Prince Eric]

You make good points, Sunset Girl. However, you kind of sealed the deal in regards to whether or not you're born with it. Freud pretty much says that it's our childhood that determines are sexuality. It's a thing called the Oedipus Complex. I'm not going to go through a whole discourse, because they very implications of Frued is a Ph. D. dissertation in itself. He also argues that everyone has "tendancies," but it's up to us whether or not we act on them. Whatever the case, it is NOT biological. It's social, maybe, but then again, that's if you want to look at it from a liberal point of view. The fact is, humans were created male-female compatible. Nobody take this next sentence to offense!!!!!!! It's just an observation. Animals were created male-female. You don't see male-male animal mating. Humans have the mental capacity to change that. In this regard, it's a choice. (Notice how I said humans and animals are different, so I'm not liking anyone to an animal.)

Saying whether or not you can figure out who will turn out gay by looking at childhood is a faulty observation process, but I won't say your wrong.

Oh, and no one here is saying you're a bad person, at least I'm not.

[Siren]

If it's a choice and how they are raised, then how can one identical twin be gay and one be straight? They were raised at the same time, by the same parents, in the same enviroment. You don't have to answer those, because you seem pretty set in that its a choice. People STILL debate whether we were evolved from apes or made from a divine force, what makes you think being gay is so cut and dry?

See http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazi ... eople_gay/ for the story.

Also, on the whole choice thing...

Do you have a specific type of guy you are attracted to? Maybe long hair is your fancy. Or a buff bod? Is race important? Do you lust over a certain look? Think you can change that? Think you can stop lusting over Orlando Bloom and lust over Chevy Chase? Why not? Because you can't help but feel attracted to a certain look? Doesn't mean you don't try you hand at other guys. I personally like teddy bear guys. But I have dated some beanpoles, but I still like the look of a guy with some meat on his bones better. Doesn't make me wrong to feel that way. I just do.
How is this different from being gay? From being attracted to the same sex, because its what you like. And being gay doesn't mean you go with every person of the same sex, same rules apply to straight people. Gays have the looks they like the most too. Some guys prefer buff guys, some guys prefer more femine guys, some guys prefer more teddy bear guys. I see little difference between being gay and straight. They all reacte to their feelings the same way.

[Sunset Girl]

Prince Eric,

Thank you for giving your point of view in a respectful way.

Hmm. . . Freud is an interesting subject. Something I try to keep in mind is that he did his research at a time of sexual repression, and I feel that many of his finding simply can't apply to the world today.

Perhaps my sexuality is a product of my enviournment; I really, honestly don't know. But the way I feel, the person I've become was not a concious, deliberate choice. The only real choice I could make was whether or not to announce it. Even if it is a product of someone's enviournment, how does it become that person's choice? I could completely live in denial about it and/or not act upon it, but that's not going to make the fact that I'm bi go away. And to be honest, I haven't even had a relationship with another woman, just with my male partner. So as far as most people know, I am perfectly straight.

Now granted, I obviously can't predict the future, but it's really amazing when you realize how much of someone's personality is born into them. That was something I didn't realize until one of my nieces was born, because she was the extreme opposite of her sister since day one. So why couldn't sexuality be born into people as well? Maybe seeing the "traits" in children is being stereotypical on my part, but a large part of who you are going to become as an adult is reflected by the way you are as a child.

Oh, I wasn't saying anyone is accusing me of being a bad person (but thank you for making that clear ), it's just that there are a lot of judgemental people out there that would claim I and other people that are not perfectly straight *are* bad people. That includes my own flesh and blood.

Sad how it can tear families apart. Let's say I happened to find a female partner instead of a male one, which in my case was entirely possible. Why would I "choose" to have a controvercial lover over the love of my own family?

[Poppins#1]

Lazario, what he was trying to say is that it's a choice. People who say they are homosexual because they were born that way are just in denial, which I find confusing IF there's nothing to be ashamed of. It's been proven scientifically that there is no gene or biological factor in homosexuality. It's a CHOICE.

Actually Prince Eric, I believe recent scientific studies have shown that homosexuality IS tied to genetic make-up. Studies of fraternal versus identical twins have shown that while fraternal twins have no more likelihood of both twins being gay than two regular siblings, identical twins have a much higher chance of both twins being gay rather than just one being gay. Which is to say that genes DO play a factor in whether or not one is gay. However, it's not the only factor. While one may have the so-called "gay" gene, other factors (i. e. envionmental) could contribute to the person not actually turning out gay, which is why identical twins both being gay (or straight) is not a 100% occurance.

And Alice in answer to your question which is the whole purpose of this thread: Yes I am.

[Lazario]

The fact is, humans were created male-female compatible. Nobody take this next sentence to offense!!!!!!! It's just an observation. Animals were created male-female. You don't see male-male animal mating. Humans have the mental capacity to change that. In this regard, it's a choice.

(Icky Alert: this post contains a few slight instances of sexually descriptive language)

You may be quite shocked to learn this, but first of all, mating is a funny word. We know out of all the animals, one of the only if the only species' males that do give birth are seahorses. But dolphins have been proven to have many homosexuals within their species. While this doesn't change the rules of males being able to give birth in animal unions, mating for the purposes of sex, have produced many male-male unions. When a male animal in the wild cannot find a female, it still looks for a partner to be sexual with. In this regard, society mirrors the wild - we as human beings have an ingrown desire to be with a body, this having nothing to do with a mate as a body to raise children with.

When you say we as living creatures are male-female compatible, you are forsaking / ignoring things like these. And more. If you are speaking to deviation you believe to be perhaps recent, homosexuals have existed as early in history as the B.C.'s, which while I don't know nuthin' bout religion, I do know is before America. Many ancient Roman and Greek royalty participated in homosexual activity. Homosexuals have existed since the dawn of society. And the fact that they cannot produce children together has no bearing whatsoever upon this, so I think you need to re-evaluate your idea of mating.

In fact, sex and sexuality is the whole backbone of mating. So do look at erogenous zones. When two men engage in natural homosexual-male sex, the "bottom" as it were is experiencing sexual pleasure in his anus that is naturally occurent in all human males. Yet people who say male-to-male sex isn't natural are not aware of this fact. Women who have sex with men often complain of a man's inability to find her clitorus during intercourse, and even oral stimulation. However, woman-to-woman sex has been known to clear this problem right up. It's very natural for a woman to be far more sensitive to the sexual pleasure of her partner, if her partner is female. She gives her female partner the pleasure she herself would want.

Then I'd like to direct you to the immense social differences between men and women. Men and women have a notorious history of being insensitive to each others' needs and wants, which I think has contributed to every big period where people say divorce rates are on the rise (society impacts on this). Men and women don't want the same things when they're apart, and together they have natural difficulties deciding because their agendas are different. But male&male and female&female unions are a perfect solution to this problem as well. In the bedroom department: who knows their bodies better than each other? In the life department: who can understand their personal fears like male inadequacy better than another male, and females dealing with sexism and society's pressure better than another female?

Of course, this is all to say it doesn't make much sense when people say homosexual unions are not natural. They're very much natural. And if people would think about it more, they'd see there's a lot of proof. And people have a very incorrect impression on the gay community as a whole: we never wanted any new members who weren't members at the beginning of their sexual awakening.

Some people can just only live for love if it can be with a member of their own gender. That's the most important lesson, also makes one believe in love itself. There are times in a person's life when they feel they are missing something without someone to love, they feel pain without the person they do love or they feel a yearning to meet someone perfect for them. And if they thought about being with a person of the opposite gender than the one they want, it sickens them. This is what makes homosexuality more natural than anything else. It's the same as heterosexuality, it's about sexuality and it varies from person to person. Society has tried to supress it and that's where so much of our collective unsureness comes from. You'd understand if homosexuals were allowed to live their lives without persecution, just how beautiful it really is. Because it's normal just like heterosexuality is for the straights.

Being gay isn't just about sex and lust. It never was, that's just another thing the haters use to try to convince people otherwise. If love really exists, it is gay and straight at the same time. Being homosexual is no choice, but if it was I would never choose anything else. I've had a lot of horrible things happen to me, we all have, and through it all, I've come out of the battle of life with one thing to cling to: I am gay. That makes me want to live and it's the only thing throughout all the times I wanted to give up.

[yoda_four]

Ummmmm. Hmmm. Okay, this thread is getting off-topic again, although it is nice to see the "gay gene" topic being brought up rather than what was previously being "discussed".

Anyways, many here will not remember me. I was a reg a long time ago (left around end of 04 i think), and back when this site was a larger part of my life, UD was the first "public" place i came out (i dare someone to dig up the thread ). I daresay, UD was actually a much more welcoming and accepting site back then, and was very helpful in my personal and sexual development. Once again, I thank all those members from way back when that were so nice to me.

LOL. I think I myself am hijacking this thread now. But I digress, yes I am a 15 year old gay guy. My online and offline friends accept me, my dad accepts me, and my country accepts me. But its not acceptance all gays are wanting, its only tolerance. It is not necessary to endorse, nor condone GLBTs (or anything else for that matter), just tolerate it and things for everyone will be much better. I have yet to be "attacked" (verbally or physically), but that's probably accountable either to me for not yet being fully "out" or maybe it's something to do with Canada (i guess kinda like Holland). So, I dunno, it'd be just such a nicer world if everyone could tolerate others' similarities and differences, cause in the end we are all on this on planet together.

Stupid progressive, world-changing post, eh? (<-- lol, stereotypical canadian). Well, Alice, I guess you've got another member to add to the gay list now. Oh and btw, if hopefully Luke doesnt mind, I'm also a member at TheStudentCenter.org's GLBT forums. Great place for gay teen discussions.

EDIT: WTH, I think i'll add my thoughts to the gay gene posts. I do believe there are many, many factors that have to add up to someone being gay (a belief that's shared by many at SCN). I think there's definitely something going on in the genes, but also believe that personal experiences can define a persons "gayness/flamboyancey". Like someone that can be totally open about themselves and dress in drag obviously experienced some important experiences while growing up, along with the 37 year old professional family man that doesnt want to lose everything just because of his sexual preference. I think that's enough for me, and sorry about not mentioning any lesbian or bisexual references in that. (it was implied in the "GLBT" )

[Disney-Fan]

It's a CHOICE.

Then if someone told you to choose a man you're attracted to and be with him, could you honestly do that?

[Alice]

i dare someone to dig up the thread .

MWAHAHA!:

http://www.ultimatedisney.com/forum/vie ... highlight=


now what's that board again??

[Alan]

Lazario, people who often post very negative comments about homosexuality, are often the ones seeking attention.

That is quite wrong indeed. You won't believe how many people who denounce homosexuality because of their beliefs.

[DaveWadding]

Lazario, people who often post very negative comments about homosexuality, are often the ones seeking attention.

That is quite wrong indeed. You won't believe how many people who denounce homosexuality because of their beliefs.

Way to miss the point. Some people (such as myself) support gay rights 110%, but you don't hear ME going around screaming about it. I do my piece, and that's good enough. Why can't the detractors do the same? Because they are desperate for attention to their cause. And you know, it's been proven, that the more times you hear something, the more prone you are to believing it...do the math.

[Escapay]

Lazario, people who often post very negative comments about homosexuality, are often the ones seeking attention.

That is quite wrong indeed. You won't believe how many people who denounce homosexuality because of their beliefs.

I think Siren was talking about people who post very negative comments here. You know, flamingly horrible comments that make you wonder what goes on inside their head.

And thanks, Alice, for digging up Paul's topic. If only the attitudes in that topic were brought here, we'd be in a much stable place.

Escapay

[Siren]

Thanks guys. Yes, that's what I mean. I'm not denouncing someone's beliefs. They are their own and have a right to post them.

But saying, "I don't agree with homosexuality because it is against my religion." is taking the mature, honest, and thoughtful outlook on it.

While, spewing out insults like, "Homesexuality is sickening" and then using the excuse that's an opinion, that is a different thing. That is what I am talking about.

Some here can hold themselves in respect by being sensative to others, and yet still get their point across. And they are happy with that. So are most of us. They do it all without insulting.

The few who feel compelled to insult and thus, bring negativity to the forum, those are the ones seeking attention. They aren't happy till all eyes are on them, and then when they see people are fighting and hating eachother, they feel Godly, because they got just what they wanted. I try not to fall for that bait.

[Raydawggie]

I believe you, Lazario. You definitely know what you're talking about when it comes to serious issues, something I should have realized early on (yes, this is an apology for the mess I made in the JS thread). But there are still people here who just want to stir up trouble, in the name of discussion. It's not gonna be me, as my post here is nothing but an agreement with you (rare, huh?).

Wait a minute, I know you probably won't read this... but what made you realize I was right? Or that I had a point, did you go back and read it?

Anyway, I don't think anyone here has any major revelations about their sexuality. Though I was a little surprised that Raydawggie had bi-leanings. I have to wonder what man did it for him? But then wait, is Raydawggie male? Two many questions to ask Raydawggie.

Heh, sorry it took me so long to answer this, man. I am male, yeah. I know we've butted heads in the past because I lean conservative, but I'm also a libertarian who's very strongly in favor of Gay rights, and it's by far my biggest problem with Bush. I think government should stay out of people's private lives, period.

I know I am at least partially bisexual, because I know I am attracted to other men(Johnny Depp and Constantine Maroulis come to mind), and I have no problem with that. I don't know if I'd ever act on it, but I try to keep an open mind.

[Escapay]

I don't know if I'd ever act on it, but I try to keep an open mind.

Not wanting to open a can of worms, but I just wanted to say that I think everyone has bisexual feelings, and some can act on them and some can repress them. I think I got that from "Coupling", I'm not really sure. And because the human body is a wonderful thing, if someone thinks it's visually attractive, it shouldn't be a problem if it's a male finding another male attractive or a female doing the same. It's just the world we live in where straight is the norm, and so anything abnormal is considered wrong. Guess what I'm really trying to say is everyone is bisexual in some way, in that they can find the same sex attractive, but it doesn't necessarily mean they'll be acting on it.

I'm confident enough to say that I think Christian Bale is an attractive actor. Does that mean I'm gay? No. Does that mean I'm bisexual? No. Just that I am secure enough with my sexuality to compliment someone of the same sex.

Escapay

[Raydawggie]

I don't know if I'd ever act on it, but I try to keep an open mind.

Not wanting to open a can of worms, but I just wanted to say that I think everyone has bisexual feelings, and some can act on them and some can repress them. I think I got that from "Coupling", I'm not really sure. And because the human body is a wonderful thing, if someone thinks it's visually attractive, it shouldn't be a problem if it's a male finding another male attractive or a female doing the same. It's just the world we live in where straight is the norm, and so anything abnormal is considered wrong. Guess what I'm really trying to say is everyone is bisexual in some way, in that they can find the same sex attractive, but it doesn't necessarily mean they'll be acting on it.

I'm confident enough to say that I think Christian Bale is an attractive actor. Does that mean I'm gay? No. Does that mean I'm bisexual? No. Just that I am secure enough with my sexuality to compliment someone of the same sex.

Escapay

True. I think the attraction is a little stronger than average for me. I'm not sure if I'd act on it, but I also admit to myself the possibility is there. But I sort of agree with you. I think most people are capable of finding a person of the same sex attractive.

[Alan]

As I said before on this thread, I might be bisexual or may be not. I crtaintly some women hot (UMA THURMAN), but I'm just unsure about my sexual identity.

[Disney-Fan]

Escapay, I agree, except I got that point of view after watching Alexander!

[Lazario]

I know I am at least partially bisexual, because I know I am attracted to other men (Johnny Depp and Constantine Maroulis come to mind), and I have no problem with that. I don't know if I'd ever act on it, but I try to keep an open mind.

I think the attraction is a little stronger than average for me. I'm not sure if I'd act on it, but I also admit to myself the possibility is there. But I sort of agree with you. I think most people are capable of finding a person of the same sex attractive.

Personally, I find Johnny Depp to be rather feminine (his mannerisms remind me uncannily of Carol Burnette, and Roger Ebert has finally caught onto this too, he mentions it in his review for Charlie and the Chocolate Factory).

Not wanting to open a can of worms, but I just wanted to say that I think everyone has bisexual feelings, and some can act on them and some can repress them. I think I got that from "Coupling", I'm not really sure. And because the human body is a wonderful thing, if someone thinks it's visually attractive, it shouldn't be a problem if it's a male finding another male attractive or a female doing the same. It's just the world we live in where straight is the norm, and so anything abnormal is considered wrong. Guess what I'm really trying to say is everyone is bisexual in some way, in that they can find the same sex attractive, but it doesn't necessarily mean they'll be acting on it.

I'm confident enough to say that I think Christian Bale is an attractive actor. Does that mean I'm gay? No. Does that mean I'm bisexual? No. Just that I am secure enough with my sexuality to compliment someone of the same sex.

With all this talk of "feelings" this person or that person finds to be bisexual... I wonder if anyone has a clue what it really feels like to be more than tempted to act on desires for a member of their own gender. Attracted is one thing, but is there excitment attached to it (, Raydawggie)? In this arena, if people knew themselves better, they could and most likely would prefer one gender. I've always had trouble understanding bisexuality, I guess because of just how strongly I've always felt for men- it's never been that way for women. I've even fallen in love with a man before.

So for goodness sakes, boys, who are you thinking about when you masturbate? That's a surefire way to tell your sexual "preference". I don't know where I saw Christian Bale for the first time, but I got the wrong impression of him initially. He is an absolute babe, and one of the very hottest men in Hollywood right now. Though I keep waiting for that Jake Gyllenhaal gay-cowboy movie to come out...