2D Dead says 'insider' (report from Mouseplanet.com)

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2D Dead says 'insider' (report from Mouseplanet.com)

Post by Loomis »

Didn't know where else to stick this. Hope there wasn't a more appropriate place...

Mouseplanet.com posts a comment from someone evidently inside the animation department in Burbank.
Here is what they had to say:
Bummed in Burbank @ Mouseplanet.com wrote:Everyone has come to the realization that even if Brother Bear is bigger than Nemo, it's still game over for us. And worse, with the CORE Digital, Vanguard and Shadedbox deals, as well as our own TVA-er, ah-"DisneyToon Studios" some of us wonder if all of feature animation is going to be "outsourced" to save pennies.
Emphasis added. Full article at: http://www.mouseplanet.com/mailbag/m030828.htm
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Post by 2099net »

I posted this on another thread, but I think it is worth repeating here as it shows insight into Disney's thinking:
2099net wrote:Reports are that Chicken Little will be CGI, but look hand drawn - similar to the Giant in The Iron Giant did. (I suppose this will be a more advanced form of Cel-Shading seen in many modern computer games). It's quite easy to do with angular characters - see the Iron Giant and B.E.N. in Treasure Planet for examples, but much, much harder to do for rounded organic characters.

Why would they want to do this? Especially when CGI movies are supposed to be hot right now. Why try to make them look handdrawn?

Bacause as stated, once a model is built in a computer, it can be reused with little effort - and so can animations like walk cycles etc.

Disney want to make a virtual cast of characters, a virtual lot of sets and a virtual store of props. That way they can quickly make sequels, television series the lot. All the hard work and cost is done in the film's production and the sequels and television series will require significantly less time and effort. This is why Jimmy Newtron had a movie made before the television series - the bulk of the costs in setting up the characters and locations for the television series were absorbed into the motion picture budget.

I'm sad if this is what Disney is planning. 2D handrawn art deserves to live on at Disney. But I take comfort in the knowledge that Dumbo II and Bambi II have been rethought. It appears, contary to some people's expectations Disney isn't putting out any old crap as part of their sequels. Also I think Disney is determined to get the 3D-2D look as close as possible to the original.

I cry for the jobs and skills lost, but I will not comment on the suitability of the process until Disney are happy with it and release their results to the public. But it will have to be very, very good to convince myself and a lot of other people it is the way to go.
I think Disney do have a sound business idea in theory. But as we all know Art and Business rarely mix well. :( Also, with all the partnership deals going on at the MouseHouse at the moment I have to question if these will be good or bad for the Disney. They really should concentrate on moving Walt Disney Feature Animation to all CGI (if that is indeed what they want to do) and ignore all these partnerships - I'm convinced the partnerships will only lead to trouble in the future.

Still what do I know? I don't own 10% of the company's stock or get paid millions upon millions each year to run it. :roll:
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Post by Luke »

If 2D is dead, as others have said, it will only be a matter of time before it is revived and "old" is new again. This reeks of short-term thinking.
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Post by 2099net »

Well, I don't approve of what's happening at Disney. How could I? But you have to look at this from a business point of view. It does make sense.

At the moment CGI animation is still new. And most of the work of CGI has been in creating digital images for special effects in live action movies. As a result the bulk of CGI development has focused on creating photorealistic rendering. Even something like Toy Story and Monsters, Inc. has the [software] emphasis on photorealism; shadows, reflections, transparancies etc. It's only now that some of the smaller animation houses are experimenting with creating CGI animations that are abstract and do not lean towards photorealism. Disney too seem to have something other than photorealism in mind with some of their upcoming CGI features.

If Disney can get CGI to look like drawn animation (which seems to be one of their goals - see the Chicken Little information, plus their original plans for Bambi II and Dumbo II) why would they need to go back to handdrawn animation again? Make a cartoon that looks handdrawn in CGI and the character models etc can be used in anything from sequels, theme park attraction movies, television series to adverts with little time and effort simply by reusing existing models and animation.

There's a reason that Shrek 2 is expected to take less than half the time and cost to produce than the orginal Shrek did - even though it will have more characters and locations (although factor in the inflated salary for the voice actor 'stars' and Shrek 2 will probably turn out more expensive :roll: ) They already used the models, animation cycles and sets on the Shrek 4-D attraction. And should Dreamworks ever want to do a Shrek television series, one could be made close to the quality of the films for a reasonable price (ignoring the voices).

There's other advantages too - create a model of a human and motion capture can do the bulk of the animation. And not just for body movement either. Disney are already (reportedly) working on a motion capture system for human faces more advanced than any existing system. People may complain about this, but it's only the 21st century version of rotoscoping (I know Disney rarely rotoscoped in a tradidional sense, but the animation was heavily influenced by live action references). So, as well as being cheaper, it also means the animation is faster then having to draw and photograph/scan each individual frame of movement.

So Disney's thinking is create a human character model, motion capture the movement and expressions. Tweak the animation slightly to make it fit the apperance of the film and output the final render to look handdrawn. One handdrawn looking animation created at a fraction of the time and cost of traditional animation (in theory - once the technology is ready).

Disney as a company seemed to be making lots of decisions based on short term thinking, but I actually think that this is a decision made with the long term in mind.

Of course, they're still doing it wrong. We all know Disney takes 2 steps backwards with every step forwards :)

It's idiotic to shut down their handdrawn feature animation departments while the technology to achieve their goal is still being perfected. They should release a mixture of handdrawn and CGI films over the next few years to test the waters for both forms of animation. Convincing CGI that looks handdrawn could be years away. I'd like to see them continue to make traditional features, while using new theatrical shorts to experiment with CGI rendering.

I also think all of their partnership deals with CGI houses are doing Disney no favours what-so-ever. It just makes them look sad and desperate. Disney no longer leads; it follows. And even then it only follows with the help of others. I'm sure Walt must be spinning in his grave now.

It's easy to get worked up about this. I have been (and still am to a certain extent), but the more I research the issue the more and more I can understand Disney's thinking. Does that make it right? Of course not.

Ultimately should Disney pull it off does it really matter? If they can produce movies that look 100% handdrawn (but aren't) does it affect our enjoyment when watching the movies to any extent?
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Post by Jack »

All I know is that I don't think in a million years Walt would have wanted his company abandoning the art form he started it with.
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Post by Matty-Mouse »

Its slightly reasuring that disney want their future CGI movies to look hand-drawn because there are enough studio's putting out good 3D looking CGI movies (Okay really only Pixar) that Disney will have to face to much compition.

I agree with what 2099 said about making shorts to test out new technology and animation methods before making feature films because the results could be awful. And that means Disney will lose more money making a from that way than making a short.

I guess we'll just have to wait until either Angel or Chicken Little is released before we see the results.
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Post by poco »

Walt is turning over in his grave right about now. :headshake:
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Post by Loomis »

poco wrote:Walt is turning over in his grave right about now. :headshake:
Or possibly his cryogenic chamber...
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Post by poco »

He froze himself????? :? :shock: :o :shock:
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Post by Loomis »

poco wrote:He froze himself????? :? :shock: :o :shock:
There was a rumour going around for a very long time that Walt froze himself with the hope technology could revive him someday..
It was one of those rumours crazy enough that it might just be true...

Whether it is or not is a matter for debate. I was trying to find it (I have it bookmarked at home) - a website that lists and debunks Disney urban legends.

Anyways...
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Post by poco »

Oh my goodness! :jawdrop:

I would love to know more about this! My mind is spinning!
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Post by 2099net »

^^^

Like Walt's body. :)
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Post by 2099net »

Jack wrote:All I know is that I don't think in a million years Walt would have wanted his company abandoning the art form he started it with.
I dont know. Walt was always one to embrace innovation and push the boundries of his animation studio. Look at the invention of the multiplane camera for example. Disney also virtually invented Animatronics too - something Walt considered another form of animation.

I would guess Walt would be for the new technology advances. I just think that he would have more respect for the existing artists in the studio and wouldn't be stupid enought to totally close the doors to 2D animation with out seeing the results of his 3D experiments and projects first.

The main issue here (in my mind at least) is not the fact that CGI will replace traditional animation, it's the complete lack of respect Disney as a company is showing to it's animators - the people who literally turnedover billions upon billions of dollars for the studio ever since The Little Mermaid.
Matty-Mouse wrote:Its slightly reasuring that disney want their future CGI movies to look hand-drawn because there are enough studio's putting out good 3D looking CGI movies (Okay really only Pixar) that Disney will have to face to much compition.
Well from what I can tell, it's only a few films that they want to do this on. I guess it will be half and half - half with 'photorealistic' renderings and half with more 'abstract' renderings. They do want their CGI sequels to handdrawn animation to look handdrawn. The jury is still out of if they will succeed. (It will be easier to make Chicken Little look drawn, as there will be no existing animation to use as a reference to it's success)
Matty-Mouse wrote:I agree with what 2099 said about making shorts to test out new technology and animation methods before making feature films because the results could be awful. And that means Disney will lose more money making a from that way than making a short.

I guess we'll just have to wait until either Angel or Chicken Little is released before we see the results.
Switching to a new technology instantly is never a good idea. Especially when Disney were reportedly not happy with the tests for Dumbo II and Bambi II (I understand Dumbo II is 'on hold' and Bambi II will be handdrawn now).

I really cannot see what they are thinking, and why they are so willing to put all their eggs in one basket.
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Post by Jack »

2099net wrote:I dont know. Walt was always one to embrace innovation and push the boundries of his animation studio. Look at the invention of the multiplane camera for example. Disney also virtually invented Animatronics too - something Walt considered another form of animation.

I would guess Walt would be for the new technology advances. I just think that he would have more respect for the existing artists in the studio and wouldn't be stupid enought to totally close the doors to 2D animation with out seeing the results of his 3D experiments and projects first.

The main issue here (in my mind at least) is not the fact that CGI will replace traditional animation, it's the complete lack of respect Disney as a company is showing to it's animators - the people who literally turnedover billions upon billions of dollars for the studio ever since The Little Mermaid.
I believe Walt would have embraced 3D technology, but would not have let it replace 2D entirely. As you said, Disney is being very disrespectful to the 2D format, as well as its animators, and thats something that I feel discraces the foundation of the company.
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Post by Loomis »

I am inclined to think Walt would have embraced 3D, given his desires to go forward all of the time.

But if you look at a lot of those Disneyland episodes, he ALWAYS looked at Snow White as the example. He had such a fondness for the traditional work that went into films, I find it hard to believe he would completely abandon his roots. He did, after all, 'grow up with movies'.

There is no reason the two can't co-exist, but the economic argument is always the most convincing and it seems CGI seems to be the cheapest and fastest way of doing things.

It is a shame, but it seems Disney have made up their mind...
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Post by Maerj »

Loomis wrote:
poco wrote:He froze himself????? :? :shock: :o :shock:
There was a rumour going around for a very long time that Walt froze himself with the hope technology could revive him someday..
It was one of those rumours crazy enough that it might just be true...

Whether it is or not is a matter for debate. I was trying to find it (I have it bookmarked at home) - a website that lists and debunks Disney urban legends.

Anyways...
Walt was privately cremated shortly after his death. He was interested in cryogenics and reportedly looked into it, which caused the rumor, but his body was cremated.
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Post by MickeyMouseboy »

you forgot about he was frozen and his frozen body is buried under Cindy's Castle.
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