I never knew about this... (Lion King and Kimba?)

[*Pocahontas*]

I don't really have a oppinion on this topic, I belive The Lion King did get some ideas from that movie, but didn't some one say Roy Disney said that himself before? The lion king is magical and it's a classic, and there couln't be one improvment done to make it any better, and the animation is beautiful, and i could go on and on, but what I am trying to say is no animated movie about a lion would ever beat the Lion King, agreed?

[maxeythecat]

Unfortunately those discs you saw are'nt a very good representation of the "Kimba" series. They're from Tezuka's sequel to the original program, voice cast by some cheezy company in Canada and broadcast on CBN during the 80s....they were issued by Palm Beach Entertainment and badly transfered to disk, the soundtrack is so distorted as to make them virtually unlistenable. Hopefully someday somebody will take the "Go Ahead Leo!" series ( that was it's original Japanese name) and redo the voices and give it the proper treatment that it deserves. In the meantime, you can get the original series that was so well loved in this country on Amazon, Ebay and The Right Stuf..check it out so you can see what we're talking about!

[Tascar]

2099net, I agree with you on that. Were the shoe on the other foot, Disney would probably send over their army of lawyers immediately. But to be very honest, having seen alot of Jungle Emperor Leo (both the original original 1950s manga, the old 60s cartoon, the 80s cartoons, and the recent animated film), I just don't see how The Lion King was as blantently copied from Kimba as some would suggest and I can't quite believe that this connection could be proven. The Lion King owes much more to Shakespeare than Jungle Emperor in its core.

With regards to both 2099net and maxeythecat, we are all here because we all love Disney. And I am sure that whatever disagreements we have regarding Disney comes from a desire to see it better. In that regard, I was perhaps mistaken to assume that criticism of the Lion King/Kimba connection in this forum comes from an unwarranted desire to bash Disney.

However, just to let you know where I am coming from, having been to many other discussions about this with anime fans, whether in person at conventions or on bulletin boards, the subject of the Lion King/Kimba connection most often comes from unwarranted blind bashing of Disney for no particular reason other than its being different from anime.

[Blue Jackal]

Most of what I would've said has already been done so.

I side with Kimba, though I'm not even close to an anime fan. But neither am I a Disney fan. Just an admirer of all animation, no matter what studio or style it comes from. But Disney definitely crosses the lines as far as content. I'd be just fine if it were something like, "Okay, they have talking lions in a natural kingdom. Let's have that too."

But nope. Look below.

Similarities quoted from a website posted here: "(1) orphaned lion cub destined to be king (Kimba/Simba); (2) father who died in treacherous circumstances (Caesar/Mufasa); (3) annoying busybody bird (Polly/Zazu); (4) wise but eccentric baboon (Dan'l/Rafiki); (5) cute girlfriend cub (Kitty/Nala); (6) villainous hyenas who are always trying to take over. (7) name similarity: Kimba/Simba (duh); (8) evil Japanese lion, Claw, with one eye versus evil Disney lion, Scar, with scar over one eye; (9) little lion looks up to see the ghost of his father in the clouds; (10) heroic pose of lion on jutting rock."

There might've been one or two more, but the website I originally saw information on this disappeared in my favorites. So the similarities are too close for comfort. Definitely qualified as "rip-off". Of course it's far too late to do anything about it, so any complaining is just empty.

[Starion]

Please try to use more descriptive thread titles.

This is still my favorite link on the subject:
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a991224.html

That's my favourite link Luke about Kimba and Simba!

Brian Tiemann also wrote a few paragraphs about this subject at:
http://www.lionking.org/faq.html#unfortunates

Hey, it's Kimba the White Lion. What's The Lion King? j/k Everyone brings up some interesting and good points.

Here is a letter from Satonako Machiko to Disney I found:
http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~tanaka/TD/te ... tonaka.txt

Source: Tezuka's "Jungle King" and Disney's "Lion King"
http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~tanaka/TD/

[maxeythecat]

This is probably the best and most expansive link for "Kimba the White Lion":

http://kimbawlion.com/

It covers just about any and every question regarding the series, including the " Kimba/Simba" issue....just click on the tab that sez "Lion King?"on the left and it'll take you to a page that tells you everything there is to know about the subject. Oh.... before I forget, there's a Japanese DVD that's being released next month that contains the ORIGINAL" Jungle Emperor" theatrical movie! It's part of a two disc retrospective of Maestro Tezuka's work that's been in the vaults since the '60s and it's never been available in any form until now.

Backstory:
Tezuka was never really that happy with the television series....he disliked the way NBC Films had toned down the grittiness of the story to make it more accessible to their target audience (kids), so going back to the drawing board , he created a full length theatrical movie that retained the vision he'd originally had for the show. Needless to say, some people seemed to agree with him 'cos in 1967 " Jungle Emperor Leo" won the St. Mark's Silver Lion Award at the 19th Annual Venice International Film Festival. I'm really excited to see this...it's gonna be great to see the only really accurate animated telling of Tezuka's legendary epic that was done during his lifetime. I'll letcha guys know what I think of it when I get it, okay?

[lolopimp]

I don't really have a oppinion on this topic, I belive The Lion King did get some ideas from that movie, but didn't some one say Roy Disney said that himself before? The lion king is magical and it's a classic, and there couln't be one improvment done to make it any better, and the animation is beautiful, and i could go on and on, but what I am trying to say is no animated movie about a lion would ever beat the Lion King, agreed?

Agreed....lol

[Knuckles the Echidna]

On a similar note:

http://www.oldcrows.net/Atlantis/

I do love Atlantis, but people, you just can't deny facts. It's not a rip-off, but it does borrow.

[orestes.]

On a similar note:

http://www.oldcrows.net/Atlantis/

I do love Atlantis, but people, you just can't deny facts. It's not a rip-off, but it does borrow.

Wow I've heard of 'Nadia' but never seen it. It could be a very strange coincidence but I doubt it. I have a story I wrote when I was younger that was like 'Atlantis'. This was written before I had seen it, long before and it was eerie watching it but the character descriptions weren't the same.

[RJKD23]

Too many similarities and coincidences..
But Disney does a good job with their movies...even if they are "copying" ideas!
I saw a DVD on Kimbaa the White Lion at the 99 cents store, and I was tempted to pick it up just to see what it was all about...but I opted for the velcro tabs for my Bambi DVD.

[Starion]

I saw a DVD on Kimbaa the White Lion at the 99 cents store, and I was tempted to pick it up just to see what it was all about...but I opted for the velcro tabs for my Bambi DVD.

I should pick up a copy of the Kimba DVDs too.

On a similar note:

I do love Atlantis, but people, you just can't deny facts. It's not a rip-off, but it does borrow.

I haven't seen Nadia or Atlantis, but I would like to watch both films. The images of Nadia and Atlantis look similar.

[Sunset Girl]

. . . Personally, the bashing is because, had the "shoe been on the other foot" Disney would have slapped a court case, injunction, product recall etc on Kimba within days.

So, if this is indeed the case . . . why hasn't Disney sued the pants off Goodtimes Video for their rather obvious rip-offs?

There's a lot I could say here. . . I've known about this controversy for over well over ten years.

Perhaps it's worth noting that Tezuka was influenced by Disney at the beginning of his Manga career? That explains why most anime characters have big eyes!

I think it's impossible for Disney to claim that none of its artisits knew anything about Kimba AKA Leo, but has anyone stopped to consider how insanely idiotic it would be for Disney to completely rip off an existing property without obtaining the proper rights? I believe that there initially was an inspiration there, but I seriously doubt the Disney execs would have been comfortable enough to greenlight such a notion of following something so closely without giving adequate credt. I think they went off on their own tangent and freaked a little when the similarities were later found, thus their denial of having anything to do with Tezuka.

Perhaps some of the similarities between the two stories can be explained with story elements arriving to natural, thus similar conclusions. First of all, if you're going to do an animal story that takes place in Africa, well, what animal is considered the king of beasts? Bingo. As already mentioned here, "Simba" is Swahili for "lion," which was a natural choice for Disney to use (regardless of the name Kimba), especially when you consider the fact that the movie has a lot of Swahili in it. Don't even try to compare the lionesses, of course the main characters are going to have mates, right? And as Siren said, it's only natural for the "king" to have a castle, and what would work better than a gigantic rock to stand tall and proud on? Every king needs someone to keep connections and communicate, and what would work better than a bird that can fly off quickly in any direction to get information? And we need some bad guys. . . watch any nature documentary about Africa (my personal favorite is "Animals are Beautiful People") and you'll see why hyenas are a natural choice. I could keep going on this, but hopefully you get the idea. I'm not even gonna touch the Hamlet references, since they have nothing to do with this part of the debate. And obviously, Disney never had any humans in Lion King.

I happen to own episodes of Nadia, by the way, and I'm also aware of the similarites that exist between that and Disney's Atlantis. I also believe that this is a case of story elements arriving to natural, thus similar conclusions. For example, you may argue that both star a nerdy scientist-type character and an exotic other-wordly princess with a bare midriff. Well, duh. If you're gonna do a story about a character that basically discovers Atlantis, you'd want him to be an intelligent sort, and what better way to show that by giving your character glasses and make him a little dorky? And need I even explain creating an exotic, other-worldly princess? Why wouldn't you have a princess to represent Atlantis? And then there's the thing with the crystal. Well, that's a pretty generic idea in the first place that has been used in many, many stories. I could go on. . .

While I'm here, I'd like to point out that Sailor Moon is not at all a rip-off of Rainbow Brite. Purplebluelove99, whomever wrote that Rainbow Brite review you mention must have been a little confused, as anime existed decades before Rainbow Brite was ever even thought up!

Sailor Moon is basically a culmination of other japanese "magical girl" stories with the added twist of being a super-hero team, sort of an animated Power Rangers for girls. I'm not sure that I'd say that the English version was "dumbed down," I'd say it was sanitized and Americanized more than anything else. Yes, many episodes were skipped over and characters were altered, but that was for violence and sexual issues that most North Americans weren't ready to see in a mere cartoon. And as for the music being replaced, well, many fans complained that they missed the DiC music cues when Cloverway took over production and failed to alter the original Japanese soundtrack.

And while I'm still on the subject of anime, I have to recognize the fact that there are a lot of anime fans out there that despise Disney. I know; I've met some! And I think it's unfortunate that people are quick to dismiss Disney animation as crap. On the other hand, I know of a lot of Disney fans that despise anime. Fortunately, not everyone feels this way. To me, both are valid artforms and animation should be judged on an individual basis and not on just the genre it's in.

Well, all of this is just my opinion. I'd like to say that I'm not looking through rose-colored glasses, but I could be wrong. All stories borrow at least a little bit from other stories, but I don't think that the examples above are complete rip-offs as many people like to claim.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[RJKD23]

I should pick up a copy of the Kimba DVDs too.

Good luck! They were sorted along with LOTS and LOTS of DVDs! It was *luck* that Kimba was grouped together because one of the store workers brought it in.

All stories borrow at least a little bit from other stories, but I don't think that the examples above are complete rip-offs as many people like to claim.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

I agree on that! I don't blame Disney for "copying" the ideas... I like those movies, and they've increased the # of our DVD collection!

[2099net]

. . . Personally, the bashing is because, had the "shoe been on the other foot" Disney would have slapped a court case, injunction, product recall etc on Kimba within days.

So, if this is indeed the case . . . why hasn't Disney sued the pants off Goodtimes Video for their rather obvious rip-offs?

Because Goodtimes only do versions of Public Domain stories. Not Disney's "original" stories. You don't see a Goodtimes Lion King do you?

There's a lot I could say here. . . I've known about this controversy for over well over ten years.

Perhaps it's worth noting that Tezuka was influenced by Disney at the beginning of his Manga career? That explains why most anime characters have big eyes!

I don't think a lot of Disney characters have big eyes do they? Wasn't Walt striving for realism?

I think it's impossible for Disney to claim that none of its artisits knew anything about Kimba AKA Leo, but has anyone stopped to consider how insanely idiotic it would be for Disney to completely rip off an existing property without obtaining the proper rights? I believe that there initially was an inspiration there, but I seriously doubt the Disney execs would have been comfortable enough to greenlight such a notion of following something so closely without giving adequate credt. I think they went off on their own tangent and freaked a little when the similarities were later found, thus their denial of having anything to do with Tezuka.

Perhaps some of the similarities between the two stories can be explained with story elements arriving to natural, thus similar conclusions. First of all, if you're going to do an animal story that takes place in Africa, well, what animal is considered the king of beasts? Bingo. As already mentioned here, "Simba" is Swahili for "lion," which was a natural choice for Disney to use (regardless of the name Kimba), especially when you consider the fact that the movie has a lot of Swahili in it. Don't even try to compare the lionesses, of course the main characters are going to have mates, right? And as Siren said, it's only natural for the "king" to have a castle, and what would work better than a gigantic rock to stand tall and proud on? Every king needs someone to keep connections and communicate, and what would work better than a bird that can fly off quickly in any direction to get information? And we need some bad guys. . . watch any nature documentary about Africa (my personal favorite is "Animals are Beautiful People") and you'll see why hyenas are a natural choice. I could keep going on this, but hopefully you get the idea. I'm not even gonna touch the Hamlet references, since they have nothing to do with this part of the debate. And obviously, Disney never had any humans in Lion King.

But, if Disney artists did know about Kimba, which as you say sounds more than reasonable, don't you think they should have had their own internal red flags rising?

I happen to own episodes of Nadia, by the way, and I'm also aware of the similarites that exist between that and Disney's Atlantis. I also believe that this is a case of story elements arriving to natural, thus similar conclusions. For example, you may argue that both star a nerdy scientist-type character and an exotic other-wordly princess with a bare midriff. Well, duh. If you're gonna do a story about a character that basically discovers Atlantis, you'd want him to be an intelligent sort, and what better way to show that by giving your character glasses and make him a little dorky? And need I even explain creating an exotic, other-worldly princess? Why wouldn't you have a princess to represent Atlantis? And then there's the thing with the crystal. Well, that's a pretty generic idea in the first place that has been used in many, many stories. I could go on. . .

Yes, everything is coincidental. But add up all the coincidences and it becomes statistically unlikely. Take the Crystal. It may be pretty common in stories. But where in Plato's writings is a crystal mentioned? I may be wrong, but I don't think it is. So why would Disney choose a crystal after Nadia had. Milo isn't only a nerdy scientist, but he looks like the Nadia character. Some of the supporting characters look like the Nadia characters. Look at Helga and Nadia's counterpart. Or the Doctor. Or Explosive/Gunsman.

Stories may be similar by accident, but I refuse to beleive designs are. Satistically its just impossible.

http://www.oldcrows.net/Atlantis/

Well, all of this is just my opinion. I'd like to say that I'm not looking through rose-colored glasses, but I could be wrong. All stories borrow at least a little bit from other stories, but I don't think that the examples above are complete rip-offs as many people like to claim.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Co-Incidences can happen, but I find it strange two such close co-incidences happened so near to each other. I also find it strange Don Hahn was involved in both. Logically you would expect his "red flag" go up during Atlantis after all the Lion King fuss.

As for generic stories, Disney has done loads of these. Even just recently. The Country Bears played with Almost Famous, Spinal Tap, The Blues Brothers maybe even various Muppet Movies. But it managed to make its own film. The Haunted Mansion wasn't exactly original - it was full of cliches. Even the Lizzy McGuire movie had references to Gidgit, Roman Holiday and various 'hip' music comedies of the 60s. But all managed to progress in different directions.

Also remember a copy doesn't have to be a straight copy. Look at the various "look and feel" cases taken to court - mainly computer software but also for some physical products. You could argue a windows operating system is the logical way to evolve an interface, just like you can argue some of the stories share logical character/event evolution. But sadly, the courts have disagreed in most cases.

[ichabod]

Yes, everything is coincidental. But add up all the coincidences and it becomes statistically unlikely. Take the Crystal. It may be pretty common in stories. But where in Plato's writings is a crystal mentioned? I may be wrong, but I don't think it is. So why would Disney choose a crystal after Nadia had. Milo isn't only a nerdy scientist, but he looks like the Nadia character. Some of the supporting characters look like the Nadia characters. Look at Helga and Nadia's counterpart. Or the Doctor. Or Explosive/Gunsman.

Yes large coincides are almost impossible, which is why the whole Disney?Dreamworks/Pixar film similarities really annoys me.

But with regard to Atlantis, I found the story to be almost identical to the film Stargate.

This I what I said about it: http://www.ultimatedisney.com/forum/vie ... s+stargate

[Sunset Girl]

Because Goodtimes only do versions of Public Domain stories. Not Disney's "original" stories. You don't see a Goodtimes Lion King do you?

Actually, didn't Goodtimes release a "King of the Jungle" video when Lion King was released (which, co-incidentally, was a working title for Lion King)? I see your point with the public domain thing, but I also think it's painfully obvious that Goodtimes was quick to cash in on whatever Disney was releasing at the time even if they were going about it in a legal way. I remember an "f.y.e." I used to shop at that had a Goodtimes video of "Aladdin" on display. The had to add a sticker saying "this is not the film currently playing in theaters" after some angry returns were made!

I don't think a lot of Disney characters have big eyes do they? Wasn't Walt striving for realism?

Actually, it's well documented that the reason most anime characters have such big eyes is because of Tezuka's early designs. And Tezuka himself said he got that influence from American animation in the 1930's including the likes of Disney's Mickey Mouse and Fleischer' Betty Boop.

But, if Disney artists did know about Kimba, which as you say sounds more than reasonable, don't you think they should have had their own internal red flags rising?

Perhaps, but since we are not a part of the Disney team, we can only speculate. I can even see the arguments from both sides of the issue. But I still have a hard time buying into this idea for the reasons I've stated above.

Stories may be similar by accident, but I refuse to beleive designs are. Satistically its just impossible.

Perhaps I'm relating too much to the fact that a similar thing has happened to my unpublished work-in-progress story? Something I came up with completely on my own that Disney now seems to have an eerily similar version of, including the story, character designs, and character personalities? And it's not as if I had influence over them. So statistically, it is possible. And sadly, if I ever pursue getting published, people are gonna claim that I ripped off Disney, when it was not the case at all since I came up with my idea years ago.

Yes, everything is coincidental. But add up all the coincidences and it becomes statistically unlikely. Take the Crystal. It may be pretty common in stories. But where in Plato's writings is a crystal mentioned? I may be wrong, but I don't think it is. So why would Disney choose a crystal after Nadia had. Milo isn't only a nerdy scientist, but he looks like the Nadia character. Some of the supporting characters look like the Nadia characters. Look at Helga and Nadia's counterpart. Or the Doctor. Or Explosive/Gunsman.

How does Milo look like Jean? The glasses and maybe the hair color? And what similarites are there between Kida and Nadia? That they have dark skin and both happen to be princesses? All the characters look more "American" than anime to me, and the Nadia characters are very anime in design. They even had a Japanese artist as the lead animator of Helga, and I don't honestly see a lot of similarites between her and Grandis. Or is Helga's counterpart supposed to be Electra? I'm thoroughly confused here.

A friend of mine made interesting comparisons between Disney's Aladdin and New Line's "The Mask." She did not claim "rip-off" in any form, but the similarites in both story and characters were more surprising than you'd think.

And as for the crystal, once again, let me state that a magic amulet-type thingy is a rather generic device. Disney looked at many sources for inspiration, not just Plato. As for the color, blue is a logical choice because of the importance of water for the Atlanteans.

Need I point out that both Nadia and Atlantis both admittedly looked to Jules Vern's works as their main inspiration?

Co-Incidences can happen, but I find it strange two such close co-incidences happened so near to each other. I also find it strange Don Hahn was involved in both. Logically you would expect his "red flag" go up during Atlantis after all the Lion King fuss.

I feel the same way! Regardless of one's opinion on what happened with Lion King, by all accounts Disney was made aware of the similarites after the fact. Why would Disney risk more controversy? Keep in mind that Nadia was not as well-known in America back then, and not as likely to be known by the Disney artists (as opposed to Kimba).

By the way, I read an interesting article about this debate in an issue of Animerica a few years back and found a reference to it here: http://utd500.utdallas.edu/~hairston/atlantis.html And this is coming from a virtual Nadia expert that advised ADV on the North American version of the release!

As for generic stories, Disney has done loads of these. Even just recently. The Country Bears played with Almost Famous, Spinal Tap, The Blues Brothers maybe even various Muppet Movies. But it managed to make its own film. The Haunted Mansion wasn't exactly original - it was full of cliches. Even the Lizzy McGuire movie had references to Gidgit, Roman Holiday and various 'hip' music comedies of the 60s. But all managed to progress in different directions.

No argument there!

Also remember a copy doesn't have to be a straight copy. Look at the various "look and feel" cases taken to court - mainly computer software but also for some physical products. You could argue a windows operating system is the logical way to evolve an interface, just like you can argue some of the stories share logical character/event evolution. But sadly, the courts have disagreed in most cases.

Which is why we have to look at each case at an individual basis. I know I could be wrong about Lion King, but that's just my opinion. But I have no doubt in my mind when it comes to Atlantis.

[Disney-Fan]

You know, the Atlantis comparision seems way too biased towards the similarities. It doesn't even point out any differences, which for me makes the review unbelievable.. I really doubt Disney would make the same mistake twice. It could just be it accidentally turned out similar.

[Starion]

You know, the Atlantis comparision seems way too biased towards the similarities. It doesn't even point out any differences, which for me makes the review unbelievable.. I really doubt Disney would make the same mistake twice. It could just be it accidentally turned out similar.

You're right, someone should point out the differences between the two films. Does anyone want to compare and contrast Atlantis and Nadia?

Actually, didn't Goodtimes release a "King of the Jungle" video when Lion King was released (which, co-incidentally, was a working title for Lion King)?

Sunset Girl, you are right. Leo the Lion: King of the Jungle was released in 1994, the same year that The Lion King was relased in theatres.

[Sunset Girl]

You're right, someone should point out the differences between the two films. Does anyone want to compare and contrast Atlantis and Nadia?

Scroll down to the table on this page: http://utd500.utdallas.edu/~hairston/atlantis.html

[Timon/Pumbaa fan]

I could actually care less if Lion King was a rip off. The animation in Kimba most likely sucks and I doubt there is any misic in Kimba(which made Lion King so great). Plus there are alot of differences as well so who cares. As for Atlantis I was never a huge fan but there are a few shocking simlarities

Back to the Lion King, Lion King has excellent voice actors, amazing animation, spectacular music and a fabulous story, all things Kimba dosn't have!