Avatar (2009)

[Siren]

Not that I don't find adult humor very funny, but that is not the most appropriate video for this forum, IMO.

[CJ]

jpanimation, I have removed your post, as it was in violation of the following rule:

Inappropriate Content
Posts containing explicit content, prurient images, or other material inappropriate for the forum will not be allowed. Links to other websites hosting similar material are also not allowed. Use your best judgment in posting.

[jpanimation]

Sorry. I hope it didn't offend anyone.

[pap64]

Ironically, that video was openly posted on Jerry Beck's site. Not that I find anything wrong with that, and its Jerry's site after all, but considering its a very public site he should at least keep it hidden with a big warning.

[blackcauldron85]

A really neat making-of video (showing how the motion capture was done):

'Avatar': Behind the animation, there's acting
http://hollywoodinsider.ew.com/2010/01/ ... es-acting/
(via animationguildblog.blogspot.com)

[ajmrowland]

I'm both excited and apprehensive about the future of mocap. No one wants to see it overtake good animation.

But is really is exciting nonetheless.

[Disney Duster]

Springheel, Escapay, Siren...

I come in saying look for the originality, and you say "Nope, nothing's original anymore!"

Yea, well, nice way to crush dreams.

Look, believe that you can still be original.

I mean, Escapay, I thought your angel of death turned human sounded original, and I was going to tell you that at a right time but I guess now is. Don't hurt yourself and compare it to something else. Just don't do it.

Look for originality. It's there.

[Escapay]

Springheel, Escapay, Siren...

I come in saying look for the originality, and you say "Nope, nothing's original anymore!"

Yea, well, nice way to crush dreams.

Look, believe that you can still be original.

I take it, then, that you totally ignored the part of my post that says to read Joseph Campbell's The Hero With A Thousand Faces. In addition to that, read Christopher Booker's The Seven Basic Plots: Why We Tell Stories.

Better yet...maybe you shouldn't. Ignorance is bliss.

It's not about "nothing's original anymore". That's not what Springheel, Siren, me, etc. are talking about. It's about "every story can be traced back to an earlier one". It's about taking a concept or a story, and giving it your *own* take. That's what's original. Not the story. Your depiction, your interpretation, your presentation of the story is what makes it original and your own.

I mean, Escapay, I thought your angel of death turned human sounded original, and I was going to tell you that at a right time but I guess now is.

I guess now is the right time to tell you that I was inspired to do that type of story after watching Death Takes A Holiday (1934) and Meet Joe Black (1998 ). Am I suddenly a plagiarizer because I'm taking a concept (Death becoming human) and giving it my own spin with my own characters, my own exposition, my own climax, and my own denouement? Am I suddenly an unoriginal hack who is just riding off the success of earlier works? Seriously. It's a concept I found interesting and so I wrote my own story based on it. Hell, Avatar even borrows from those simply from the concept of one type of being "becoming" another type to better understand them.

Look for originality. It's there.

I'm not denying that it isn't. Just that people shouldn't be too quick to assume something is entirely 100% original, nor should they be so defensive about "originality" when others point out what has basically been said time and time and time and time and time and time again. Bringing this back to Avatar, it's already been said time and again that the story is reminiscent of Pocahontas, Dances with Wolves, etc. Saying it again and again won't make it any more true, and saying "Nay, it's original" won't make it any less true either. There are elements of the story that have always been around, nothing can change that. They're called character archetypes for a reason. They're called the Seven Basic Plots for a reason. What makes Avatar unique is how James Cameron told his story. The story itself is something that's been told before, sometimes in better ways, sometimes in worse ways. But how it's told is what makes it different.

Whether people feel they need to judge a movie/television show/play/etc. based on previous works, that's up to them. But it's ridiculous to live in ignorance and proclaim something as original without considering other works that share similar themes and concepts.

If you don't feel like reading Campbell or Booker's books, Matt Haig does a good job of basically condensing Booker's concepts:

The Seven Stories That Rule the World

• Are there any new stories, or have they all been told? The British literary critic Christopher Booker, has argued that there have only ever been seven basic plots, as follows:
  
  1. 'Tragedy'. Hero with a fatal flaw meets tragic end. Macbeth or Madame Bovary.
  
  2. 'Comedy'. Not necessary laugh-out-loud, but always with a happy ending, typically of romantic fulfilment, as in Jane Austen.
  
  3. 'Overcoming the Monster'. As in Frankenstein or 'Jaws'. Its psychological appeal is obvious and eternal.
  
  4. 'Voyage and Return'. Booker argues that stories as diverse as Alice in Wonderland and H G Wells' The Time Machine and Coleridge's The Rime of the Ancient Mariner follow the same archetypal structure of personal development through leaving, then returning home.
  
  5. 'Quest'. Whether the quest is for a holy grail, a whale, or a kidnapped child it is the plot that links a lot of the most popular fiction. The quest plot links Lords of the Rings with Moby Dick and a thousand others in between.
  
  6. 'Rags to Riches'. The riches in question can be literal or metaphoric. See Cinderella, David Copperfield, Pygmalion.
  
  7. 'Rebirth'. The 'rebirth' plot - where a central character suddenly finds a new reason for living - can be seen in A Christmas Carol, It's a Wonderful Life, Crime and Punishment and Peer Gynt.
  
  Every story has been told. The story is always there and authors are, if you excuse the analogy, like fashion designers dressing and re-dressing a body that will always have two arms and two legs and a head.
  
  That does not mean a novel or a play or a film can't be truly original. Of course it can. It's just originality doesn't come through plot.
  
  It comes from style and voice and the imagination that brings language and characters and settings to life. Shakespeare, for instance, never bothered himself with inventing plots. The story of Hamlet had already been told, in more prosaic form several times before. Same with King Lear and Macbeth and every other Shakespeare work you can think of.
  
  This is why I always think if you're going to rob stories you might as well rob from the master thief himself. My first two novels—The Dead Fathers Club and The Labrador Pact—owe heavy debts to Hamlet and Henry IV Part One, respectively. One of my aims in doing so was to show how the universal themes Shakespeare dealt with don't just apply to royal families. They apply to eleven-year-old boys in small towns. They apply to pub landlords. They apply to schoolteachers. They apply to brand consultants. Hey, they might even apply to Labradors.
  
  So personally I don't get too bothered about whether or not a plot is considered 'original' or 'unoriginal'. All stories are, to some degree, cover versions. It's how you carry these universal plots into the present age that's the challenge for every writer.

albert

[ajmrowland]

There's an 8th one too: The Hero's Journey(but that could go under Quest too): Whether through Questing or otherwise, the main hero must grow up and/or come to terms with himself, his goals, and make peace with his mistakes.

[Escapay]

There's an 8th one too: The Hero's Journey(but that could go under Quest too): Whether through Questing or otherwise, the main hero must grow up and/or come to terms with himself, his goals, and make peace with his mistakes.

The Hero's Journey is more a blend of The Quest and Rebirth, so it wouldn't really be an 8th. But The Hero's Journey is essentially what Campbell's book is about.

albert

[SmartAleck25]

Well, now Avatar is the highest grossing film of all time worldwide. Its feat is not too surprising, considering it has 3-D, IMAX, and inflation on its side. I still can't believe that Titantic could get that much without those items. It's good, and bad, because I made a bet with my brother that if Avatar reached No. 1 or PatF reached the top 50, he would get me a DVD/Blu-ray. Now I just have to decide on SB Blu or TPatF Blu... Poor TPatF... It will reach the $100 million mark soon!

[Disney Duster]

Haha, silly Disney Duster, you fool, thinking you can make an original plot! Don't even try! Don't imagine you can! Don't reach for just anything you dream of!

Escapay, I can't believe you. And that list has to be the most general thing I have ever heard in my life. Those aren't "plots" as I know them. That's generalization, and you know that's never a good thing!

In fact you could even say all stories are a quest (as my English II teacher told us someone else said, I bet it was that guy you mentioned). A quest to get something. Rags trying to get riches, the hero trying to get terms with himself, Scrooge trying to get a new reason for loving. That's one of the dumbest things, to generalize like that.


Try for originality in every way possible, not just one way, not just in dressing a story up. Jeeze, don't box your imagination up Escapay. I still think your storie's original. Being an angel of death invites actual plot opportunities, not a sentence that doesn't really say a story. It's like saying, "it's a story about...finding something." That's not a freakin' story! That's not a plot!

Believe in originality in more than just dressing up, my friend! And if you find or think you can't, ah well, you tried, you didn't limit your imagination!

What about a story like Cinderella? Rags to riches, but ah, it leads to a happy romantic ending as well.You may say that's too plots, but you see, it can be dwindled down to one plot according to that list. If it is using elements to make two plots, it just made an original plot by not being limited to only one on that list.

Or what about Rapunzel? The girl wasn't on a quest at all, she was happy with her mother. But then she happened to find something happier. Uh oh, that's not a quest for something! Though Disney is having Rapunzel quest for freedom it seems. Well, since it leads to a happy ending then I guess it's automatically a comedy, right? But wait, so anything with a happy ending is the comedy plot? Ahahaha that's got to be the stupidest most wrong thing I've ever heard! I like how the comedy plot isn't a plot at all, it just says "comedy", and that it ends happily. Oh my Escapay, that's practically saying nothing! You can make your own original comedy plot according to that criteria which is not a plot at all!

I hope you realize, I am not laughing at you at all, especially since you outdid what this guy said you could do. I am laughing at what this guy said, thinking he's so right, or that he actually said anything for that matter.

And what was Avatar's plot in there? Does it fit just one of those? If it doesn't fit just one, it did something creative, original.

[SpringHeelJack]

Well, that shut me up.

[ajmrowland]

There's an 8th one too: The Hero's Journey(but that could go under Quest too): Whether through Questing or otherwise, the main hero must grow up and/or come to terms with himself, his goals, and make peace with his mistakes.

The Hero's Journey is more a blend of The Quest and Rebirth, so it wouldn't really be an 8th. But The Hero's Journey is essentially what Campbell's book is about.

albert

YYYYYYYeaaaaaaahhhhhh, i sorta thought so.

I hate being wrong all the time. Still, it was worth a try.

[SpringHeelJack]

I hate being wrong all the time.

I hate being right all the time. Trust me, it's a curse.

[Escapay]

Duster, don't get mad at me for what I'm about to say. You know I respect you.

But seriously...

READ THE FREAKIN' BOOKS I MENTIONED.

It was cute at first that you were so naively intent on preserving the originality of yourself and everyone else and giving such a cheery motivational-speaker type of reply. But now it's just reaching the point of intentional ignorance. Ignorance is not bliss. You're intentionally not learning about specific things, because you feel - strike that, you KNOW - that they have the potential to ruin your perception of what is "original". You may think that's dangerous, but it's not. It's liberating. Instead, you feel it's better to ignorantly believe that what you (in the general anyone sense, not you in particular) create in a story is entirely original. Keep that up and you'll be in for a very harsh wake-up call far more damaging than this post.

Read the freakin' books and maybe I'll take your next post on the topic of "originality in stories" seriously since that last one was so laughably naive.



To re-iterate...

The Hero With A Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell

The Seven Basic Plots: Why We Tell Stories by Christopher Booker

And ajmrowland you were at least on the right track and unintentionally helped back up Campbell's book, as the hero's journey is one of the most traditional/archetypal stories out there. So

albert

[ajmrowland]

Yeah, it was just a little slip-up. thx

[Disney Duster]

Oh, silly ignorant Disney Duster, holding onto to some wonderful sense of originality. It's time that was destroyed!

Look, I can only guess he came up with other "possible details" within those things he called "plots" or reasons behind them (though I review I came across said some definitions were so vague as to be almost useless, so I'm guessing he didn't add much more to what you showed me, though you're right, I didn't read the book), but those still are hardly actual stories or plots as I would see them, and as you yourself proved, you can actually make an original plot by mixing around elements from two of the "plots" he listed.

So some guy thinks he's right, and you read him and thought "hey, I think he's right", so it must be the truth, that I need to find out? No, there's many ways to think about anything. I don't want to read something that will making a convincing case about how unoriginal I can only hope to be. I'd rather spend my time reading things that convince me of positive and hopeful things for my creativity, that actually help it. Not "Steal from the masters and dress up the same stories...cause it's only that way, my way, or the highway!" Yea, no.

How is that even "learning" about specific things? "Learn that you can't learn new stories." Yea, thanks, that really helped expand my mind. "Let's learn about originality in plots...it can't happen!" Wait...tell me something I can learn... (yes, I know you could say that you could learn to not fuss yourself over making plot original and that maybe that helps people...but it's not really helping what I would like to do).

You know what, you could be right, you could be absolutely right. And so, I will let you think that is how it is if that is how you think it is, because I could be wrong, nobody knows everything. And I will think what I think.

Did something happen to you that gave you a rude awakening about your own creativity? If it is, that's terrible, and I've been through such crises. I don't need some book making another case to make me feel I can't be as creative as I feel I can be.

And I never said that you could make something 100% original (though, let's aim for that. If we come up with something tha isn't and we like it even though it's not, all the better). But I won't let someone tell me exactly how original I can be, and limit me like that. And you shouldn't either.

And I still think your angel of death plot is at last some orginal.

[SpringHeelJack]

Oh, silly ignorant Disney Duster, holding onto to some wonderful sense of originality. It's time that was destroyed!

Well, I'm glad he's calling for it and not me for once.

[Sotiris]

I kinda disagree with the "Seven Stories that Rule the World" list. "Tragedy" and "Comedy" are not stories, they are genres. These categories are way too broad to be able to considered types of stories. Might as well had created one category and called it "Human life and all aspects of it"
Also, in that list how would radical Avant-Garde and Modernist texts fit?

The concept of originality has been a very significant philosophical issue which is still debatable today; some even claim that all original concepts had ended in antiquity. Anw, what matters is that Escapay is making a valid argument and substantiating it while Disney Duster seems not only unable to refute it but unable even to comprehend it.

Escapay: 1 - Disney Duster: 0