Blu-Ray Old Animations REALLY Worth It?

[consultant]

Don't get me wrong. I'm a huge Disney Animated Classics fan and have all the classics on DVD in the latest versions released up to 101 Dalmatians is the last upgrade I bought.

I've recently got a Blu-Ray Player and a high-end 58" 1080P Plasma. Oh my, the movies we've watched are incredible, watched Nightmare Before Xmas just the other night, Pirates of the Caribbean, and heard the Pixar Animations on Blu-Ray are drop-dead gorgeous.

Haven't bought Sleeping Beauty. Maybe this was discussed here before, I apologize if it has.

Anyway, my original reason for buying every classic animation was 1) so my kids could watch them over and over, and 2) so I had a cool chronological representation of all the classics sitting on my bookshelf for display.

Regarding Blu-Ray, I DO realize there can be other reasons to buy the latest Blu-Ray edition of a classic animation including new/different bonus features/tracks, menus, improved sound mixing and some picture enhancement.

But even though I'm a big fan, I am finding it difficult to justify purchasing the new Blu-Ray versions of old, non-computer animations, at least the ones that have already been released in a Platinum Edition on normal DVD. Here's my reasoning:

1) My kids are 7 and 8 now. We don't watch the animations that much any more. On the seldom occasions we would want to revisit a movie, we could have it same day or in a couple days from Blockbuster or NetFlix.

2) The novelty of seeing all the animations together in chrono order on my shelf has worn off. I found a cool poster and framed it which shows miniature reprints of all the movie posters for all the movies up to Mulan (which, after that I don't find any more of the hand-drawn classics that impressive anyway)

So, with that being said, here's my dilemma. The movies I would really be most interest in owning are the Platinum Block Busters: Snow White, Peter Pan, Pinocchio, Fantasia, and a few other person favorites. But these are OLD hand-made animations. The restoration process, while improving the vibrancy of colors, removing "noise" and improving the soundtrack, is really changing these movies into something that is significantly different than what they originally looked and sounded like. Don't get me wrong, I'm no 'purist' - I enjoy the improvements, but it seems like you can only go so far.

On a movie like Pirates of the Caribbean, the Blu-Ray version is SO much better looking and sounding than the DVD version.

So the question is (finally), do the new Blu-Ray editions of the older classics really offer enough benefit (whatever that may be - picture/video/features/historic material) to buy them instead of just rent them for someone that is becoming more of a casual enthusiast and less of a hard-core collector and no longer feels the strong urge to have every animated classic sitting on the shelf? Boy if that's not a loaded question I don't know what is.





3)

[Escapay]

So the question is (finally), do the new Blu-Ray editions of the older classics really offer enough benefit (whatever that may be - picture/video/features/historic material) to buy them instead of just rent them for someone that is becoming more of a casual enthusiast and less of a hard-core collector and no longer feels the strong urge to have every animated classic sitting on the shelf? Boy if that's not a loaded question I don't know what is.

Well, so far the only new Blu-Ray edition out there is Sleeping Beauty and a lot of people agree that it's miles ahead of the DVD. But at the same time, to buy or not to buy depends on the type of collector.

I always remember your posts, consultant, as they have a unique...perspective to them. Hearing that you're becoming a more casual enthusiast rather than the hard-core collector you once were (who used to drive me crazy with posts about how he'd return Treasures sets 3 or 4 times because of a frickin' dent in the tin, only to sell the majority of them later on because of space and lack of viewing issues! ), leads me to believe that Blu-ray might not necessarily be a worthwhile collection to take up. At least not in the reyquila school of "I'm buying everything!" way. Go with your idea to just buy the personal favorites. After all, they're movies you're willing to see more than once and know you'll revisit more often than others, so you'll want to have the highest quality available and at the moment, Blu-ray is that, at least for titles on Blu-Ray. Lord knows I wore out my copy of The Ten Commandmentsi on VHS, and have viewed the 2004 DVD so often that buying the 2006 DVD was more of a back-up (and an opportunity to see the 1923 original again) than a replacement, as I'll still watch the 2004 DVD.

albert

[disneydude]

Don't get me wrong. I'm a huge Disney Animated

So the question is (finally), do the new Blu-Ray editions of the older classics really offer enough benefit (whatever that may be - picture/video/features/historic material) to buy them instead of just rent them for someone that is becoming more of a casual enthusiast and less of a hard-core collector and no longer feels the strong urge to have every animated classic sitting on the shelf? Boy if that's not a loaded question I don't know what is.

I think if you already have a blu-ray player then its definitely worth it! Sleeping Beauty is just amazing. It also comes with a DVD copy which is nice if you have kids.

Rick

[gregmasciola]

Since you said you have a blu-ray player and a Netflix subscription, I say rent the blu-ray on Netflix first so you can really see for yourself if you like the quality any better than the DVD.

[kbehm29]

I find it sad that your kids are only 7 and 8 and are "beyond" animation already.

I have sons who are 10 and 13 who would rather watch The Incredibles or any of the old Disney shorts a million times over watching Spiderman 3 again.

There is no age limit on Animation!

[Fflewduur]

The restoration process, while improving the vibrancy of colors, removing "noise" and improving the soundtrack, is really changing these movies into something that is significantly different than what they originally looked and sounded like. Don't get me wrong, I'm no 'purist' - I enjoy the improvements, but it seems like you can only go so far.

I'm afraid you're off the mark here. The primary purpose of restoration (excluding asset protection & preservation) is to help create a presentation that resembles as closely as possible the original intent of the filmmakers; any conception of "what they originally looked" like based on previous home media releases (or unrestored theatrical re-releases) is going to be misinformed.

The Sleeping Beauty Blu-ray is hands-down the finest home media release of an animated classic the studio has ever released, which is almost entirely due to the fact the technical infrastructure finally exists to create optimal high-resolution scans of 35mm negatives (which can contain considerably more visual information than any home media format is capable of documenting, regardless of the age of the film).

Really, the best way to make an informed decision would be to rent the BD of Sleeping Beauty and then read Robert Harris' <a href="http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/ ... terview</a> with Disney's Director of Library Restoration and Preservation.

[consultant]

I'm glad I came back. That interview is one of the best interviews I've ever read regarding Disney's animation products. Truly incredible and eye-opening. It is quite impressive the technology they were using all the way back to the days of Snow White!

It is clear now that I will definitely have to own my favorites on Blu-Ray and forgo the urge to "buy everything". I guess now I have to determine if Sleeping Beauty qualifies as a "personal favorite" of me or my children. I suppose it should in looking at my shelf, my "to buy" on BD list would be Snow White, Pinocchio, Peter Pan, Fantasia and Mulan. I'm not a big Beauty and the Beat or Lion King fan but I might consider them. Any other people thing will be great Blu-Ray discs to own?

Oh and the comment about my kids not being into the animations. They are into them as much as they ever were. The problem is now that they are older, they are more busy and keeping up with all the activities, let alone all the new movie releases has cut into the amount of free time we have to re-watch the Disney Classics. That's all.

Thanks for your input! I am set straight now.

[Fflewduur]

It is clear now that I will definitely have to own my favorites on Blu-Ray and forgo the urge to "buy everything". I guess now I have to determine if Sleeping Beauty qualifies as a "personal favorite" of me or my children. I suppose it should in looking at my shelf, my "to buy" on BD list would be Snow White, Pinocchio, Peter Pan, Fantasia and Mulan. I'm not a big Beauty and the Beat or Lion King fan but I might consider them. Any other people thing will be great Blu-Ray discs to own?

Since Platinum titles are the only animated classics yet slated for BD release, it shouldn't be hard to fight the urge to "buy everything" if you're truly set on upgrading select titles exclusively.

Given the results on Sleeping Beauty, and assuming that future BD releases will feature new restorations sourced from new high-res scans of the original negatives, I doubt there's a single title in the catalog that won't realize huge benefits from such treatment; I'll wind up upgrading as much of my collection as I'm given the opportunity. I'm already hating the wait, but I'll put up with it for quality's sake.

[consultant]

Yes, I see the announcement that Oliver & Company will NOT be on Blue Ray so obviously the studio is only going to give Blu-Ray treatment to those movies they think that can really benefit from it. So I imagine I will end up buying every Blu-Ray release, maybe even Beauty & The Beast.

[Fflewduur]

I think most of the catalog will reach BD eventually; it's just going to take time. I haven't checked the numbers in a while (and with the format war over, I'm not really inclined to), but it'll probably take till the end of the holiday season for BD hardware to reach 10-plus% penetration in US households. I can't believe Oliver's a big seller on <i>any</i> format, or the 6 1/2-year-old Special Edition DVD would have gone back into the vault by now.

I think there's a chance we'll see non-Platinum titles on BD in 2009...how good the odds are I wouldn't hazard a guess.

I'd be happy to see Who Framed Roger Rabbit turn up on BD, which was teased for a spring 2008 release in France & Australia but never materialized.

[magicalwands]

Consultant, you are going through the exact same dilemma I am! You bought majority of the Disney Classics but you don't want ALL of them on blu-ray. This is perfectly okay. Terrible to say, but I would have bought Sleeping Beauty on Blu-Ray just because everyone was doing it. But really, not everyone needs the movie in High Definition. I'm just going to get my favorite Disney films and all of the Pixar movies on Blu-Ray. If you think you will benefit a lot with a better picture, then upgrade. Otherwise, I'd stick to DVDs. IMO, old Classic Disney films don't need to be in High Definition; the Studio Ghibli films are more worthy.

[singerguy04]

I think the answer is just to wait and see.

To be honest, i know that blu-ray is an upgrade in picture and sound, but what i really appreciate more about these newer releases is the overall newer restoration they are recieving. Although they are obviously for the blu-ray editions, it looks great on both.

What I'm begining to notice is that Disney has molded the PE's that are being released over the next two years to be the one's we would notice the most difference in when it comes to a new restoration. Taking the oldest films and re-restoring them for a blu-ray release is where we'll notice the most reason to upgrade with picture and sound. Sleeping Beauty, Pinocchio, and Fantasia are all heavy hitters with a great potential to open peoples eyes about the difference between their older and newer releases since their restoration are sure to turn heads. Snow White is a different story though, perhaps there are some more tricks up the sleeve but the DVD's restoration is pretty awesome. This is just a sure top seller I think.

As for non-platinums, I feel like we might actually be seeing some of the releases we've been waiting for. In general Hercules, The Hunchback of Notre Dame, and Lilo & Stitch are very popular. They are also up for a much needed upgrade. I feel like these titles would be very safe to be the first non-platinum blu-ray releases because they'll make good money easily, they wouldn't be hard to restore if any restoration is really needed for them in which case they should be cheaper to release, and they all boast wonderful imagery/animation, sound, and special effects. They seem to be a logical fit to start a more wide release of blu-ray DAC's.

At least, that's all my theories. Let's face it, it's not like we all wouldn't like this to be true anyway lol.

[reyquila]

You question is a no-brainer!! They're Disney, you gotta have them!!!

[SpringHeelJack]

Thank you as always, reyquila, for your well-reasoned answer.

[Escapay]

You question is a no-brainer!! They're Disney, you gotta have them!!!

Thank you as always, reyquila, for your well-reasoned answer.

albert

[Disney Duster]

Yes, I see the announcement that Oliver & Company will NOT be on Blue Ray so obviously the studio is only going to give Blu-Ray treatment to those movies they think that can really benefit from it. So I imagine I will end up buying every Blu-Ray release, maybe even Beauty & The Beast.

I hope you know, Oliver & Company is not going to Blu-ray (for now) not because it won't look better in High-definition, but because Blu-ray is so new and pricey, they don't think it anyone will buy Oliver on Blu-ray. It will definately sell way less than the popular Platinums. They might lose money doing what it takes to make it go to Blu-ray, and then sell like no copies.

IMO, old Classic Disney films don't need to be in High Definition; the Studio Ghibli films are more worthy.

The old classic Disney films are very detailed and colorful, and the new high definition will reveal so much about them it'll be like looking at them like never before. One restorer said looking at the negatives showed blues and colors in the dwarfs she had never noticed, she always thought they were so muted and mostly brown. Seriously, think of Snow White, Pinocchio, Fantasia, Bambi!

They are just as detailed, if not more so (they're more so, take a look at the shading in Snow's hair, and did you know they used textures in the animation, different tectures for different clothing?) than Studio Ghibli's films. Why do you think Ghibli's are more worthy? Because they're more recent? There's so many old classic Ghibli films!

[Fflewduur]

In general Hercules, The Hunchback of Notre Dame, and Lilo & Stitch are very popular. They are also up for a much needed upgrade.

I hope you know, Oliver & Company is not going to Blu-ray (for now) not because it won't look better in High-definition, but because Blu-ray is so new and pricey, they don't think it anyone will buy Oliver on Blu-ray. It will definately sell way less than the popular Platinums.

Hunchback: released March 2002
Hercules: released August 2000
Lilo & Stitch: released December 2002
Oliver and Company: released May 2002

With the barest exception of Lilo these titles have all been at retail for at least six years, yet none have gone back into the vault; under those circumstances it's difficult for me to believe any of them have sold well enough to be considered "very popular."

I think what's keeping these titles (and others like them) off the format for now is likely a combination of factors---

One: BD's market penetration is still pretty small.

Two: what IS new and pricey---and time-consuming---is the ability to create restorations based on super-high-resolution 4k scans of the original in-camera elements. Sooner or later the bulk of the catalog's negatives are going to be subjected to high-quality digitization for asset protection and to provide source materials for HD masters for broadcast & distribution. But those resources are not unlimited, and there's little incentive for the studio to commit to full-scale restoration of titles for which they're still selling off six-year-old stock.

[singerguy04]

First of all, using how long a certain film has been in print cannot be used as sufficient evidence as to how popular the film is.

Second, obviously by popular I wasn't putting it on par with the films that are PE's, for example. All I was saying is that a new release of these films would probably still sell better than most non-platinum titles. Similar to how you could throw Pocahontas, Mulan, and Dumbo into this catigory. They have a more prominate fan base, as can be seen through merchandise.

Third, I said maybe a year from now. A lot on the market can change in a year. Blu-ray's market will probably increase in a year from now, which could promt Disney to release non-platinum titles on the format. Nowhere did I imply that the format was strong enough right now

Fourth, all the films you listed are still in print. Disney isn't still "trying" to sell them off. They are simply still making them. As Disney has done with all of their non-platinum releases, they will probably keep all the titles in production until a few months before they are about to release a new edition. By your logic, you are suggesting that no film except the PE's will ever be released again which is like reyquila saying he's never going to buy another Disney DVD again... not likely.

[Disney Duster]

First of all, using how long a certain film has been in print cannot be used as sufficient evidence as to how popular the film is.

What? Then why are only the most popular films in limited print while the less popular ones not?

By your logic, you are suggesting that no film except the PE's will ever be released again which is like reyquila saying he's never going to buy another Disney DVD again... not likely.

No, he wasn't saying that. I mean, he knows Oliver and Company's coming to DVD for the second time. I think he was saying it will take a while before they come to Blu-ray, like when Blu-ray becomes, well, the new DVD.

[Fflewduur]

Sales figures, of course, would be the best way to determine a given title's relative popularity, but studios tend to keep that hard data to themselves unless the results are proud enough to brag about.

Failing real numbers, I don't think there's anything untoward about using vault status to make vague generalizations about a title's sales & relative popularity. It's just playing by the studio's rules; the Platinum collection is made up entirely of their best-selling titles (comprising 30% of the titles in the animated feature canon), yet they're not only guaranteed to return to the vault, they spend less time out of the vault than anything else. And it's perhaps worth noting that the single title rumored to be dropped from the Platinum line (genuflect, show some respect, down on one knee) suffered poorer sales than hoped for; it also spent more time available on retail shelves than any other feature in the Platinum collection.

Vaulted titles also have a greater tendency to reappear as legitimate upgrades with additional bonus features and improved presentation quality; there's no incentive for the studio to make those manner of investments in a lesser-selling title over one with a better sales record that's earned real income to pay for preferential treatment. (Based on the existence of the 2-disc editions alone, I'd be willing to bet Mulan and Pocahontas are more popular than Hercules or Hunchback...and a quick wiki check suggests that the chicks were more popular than the guys at the US box office.)

And I don't necessarily believe that a title lingering on the shelf is there because it's still in active production. This is a major motion picture studio working with the biggest replicators on the planet to have millions of units of hit titles available at retail on release dates, operating with the knowledge that the average new release makes 50% of its sales in the first 4 weeks on the market---it makes a lot more sense to create the entire supply at the front end and sell till they reach a target than to try to keep up with demand by creating smaller orders piecemeal along the way. And if they have kept some of these lingering titles available by keeping them in production, why would they go that trouble for Hercules and not, say Alice in Wonderland? Or Pinocchio?

Lastly: previews. Disney loves them, and they love for us to watch them on their home media. This year I've purchased three or four animated Disney DVDs that released in 2000, and they all show previews for the November 2000 DVD release of the Tigger Movie. It would take very little effort to drop in a few more timely & relevant previews on subsequent, supplemental production runs; the fact that we don't see that done is just as suggestive to me as the fact that they're still selling copies of the 30th Anniversary edition of Bedknobs & Broomsticks in the year of its 37th anniversary.