While The Incredibles is good, I don't think it deserves higher than #7, just for the fact that it takes a lot from X-Men and Fantastic Four and Spy Kids (which isn't even a superhero film, yet it made the list ). I think it's a little disrespectful to put a rather unoriginal movie so high.
Oh and "What the hell" is all I can say about putting Batman Returns instead of Batman Begins(the best Batman film to date).
Last edited by Timon/Pumbaa fan on Sat Jul 01, 2006 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It's all a matter of opinion, anyway. While Batman Begins is a great film, I'm still partial to Batman and Batman Returns. In fact, I remember when Batman Returns came out on VHS, I think my Sister and I watched that film until the VHS tape was worn out.
Also, The Incredibles is very deserving of the spot it has. I don't understand why people feel that a film doesn't deserve praise, just because elements of other films are present. It's the EXECUTION that matters, and The Incredibles is a well executed film. To be honest, most movies, art, music, etc. has elements of those that came before. That doesn't make them less deserving of praise.
Ok I can get on board the whole one film per franchise thing, but not with their picks from the franchises.
*X-2 was far better than X1
*<i>Spider-man 2</i> might be the best superhero movie -- and it's certainly better than the first -- and yet it doesn't make the list at all?
*I can maybe buy <i>Batman Returns</i>... it's my favorite from the first series, but I still think <i>Batman Begins</i> stands on stronger merit <i>while Batman</i> is the one that stands out in film history
I do, however, think that <i>The Incredibles</I> deserves a very high spot and am glad to see it recognized despite not being a franchise (yet).
AwallaceUNC wrote:*X-2 was far better than X1
*<i>Spider-man 2</i> might be the best superhero movie -- and it's certainly better than the first -- and yet it doesn't make the list at all?
*I can maybe buy <i>Batman Returns</i>... it's my favorite from the first series, but I still think <i>Batman Begins</i> stands on stronger merit <i>while Batman</i> is the one that stands out in film history
Agreed with most of the points already made, but I would also like to add that Superman II is in no way, shape or form anywhere near equal to, much less better than, Superman The Movie. I fully expect that when we get Richard Donner's version of it on DVD in the fall it will rise to the occasion, but the half-and-half Donner/Lester version we've got now totally doesn't work because their directoral sensibilities really clash. It's decent the way it is, but nowhere near Donner's masterpiece, so what the heck is it doing there instead of the original? (And personally Superman Returns trumps both, although since that's new I can definately understand its absence.)
Oh, and Hulk and Daredevil should not be anywhere near the worst list. Both of them are certianly flawed films, but there are many worse than them, and they at least have their hearts in the right place.
Er. This is turning into a general discussion thread. Anyhow, I'll start with the Disney stuff to keep it on topic and then continue onto others:
The Incredibles
I'm one of the people who have been saying for a long time that The Incredibles is basically The Fantastic Four (the comic, not the film) - along with a dash (ha ha) of other classic superhero concepts and characters. But this doesn't mean that I think its a bad or poor film. But I do think it is perhaps overrated as a result.
You've got to give some credit for them making a Fantastic Four movie better than the 'official' one (more on that later) but... if you draw on the same source too much for inspiration, it sort of backfires. For example, nobody with a basic knowledge of the Fantastic Four would have been surprised by the Jack Jack revelation at the end.
So in conclusion The Incredibles a good film, but not as radical as people think.
Other movies
Batman films
Stop your whining everybody. Batman Returns is obviously the best Batman movie today (or is it? If we're including animation, which we are with the pick of The Incredibles then Mask of the Phantasm should be the selection).
Batman Returns is the apex of Burton's vision. It has inspired casting. Two villains (well three if you include Shrek - not the ogre but Chris Walken) without turning the plot into a pointless runaround. More specifically, it reinvents both the Penguin and Catwoman into incarnations suitable for the time, taking inspiration from the whole history of the comic books while adding extra 'edge' to each. (Personally I was unhappy with both the origin and the casting of the Joker in the first Batman movie).
Batman Begins is a movie that looses itself in a narrative that wasn't even needed (yawn, another pointless and over analysed 'origin'), and doesn't really know what to do with either of it's villains when it's time for each to have it's major confrontation. (And it makes a complete hash of "the money shot" of Bruce's parent's deaths)
Superman Films
As for the Superman/Superman II debate I think I fall into perfering the sequel. I'm not a disliker of the first film, but again most of it seems rather pointless. Most people, even those with only a casual interest in Superman, know the main points of his origin. Did the movie really need to spend so much time on them? At least Superman II was action all the way - and this is most important, on a scale that the cinema hadn't witnessed at that time.
X-Men Films
I'm not a fan of either X-Men film (not seen X3) and I personally think major mistakes have been made with the translation from page to screen. Personally I wouldn't put either of these in the top 10. It's a shame, because so much of it is right, but it just doesn't (and can't) compare to any of the glory days of Claremont's era. I cringe when I think about how the movies will handle Dark Phoenix.
If I was doing it, I would have had more conspiracies, Sentinels (perhaps with Trask as character) and a big part for the Friends of Humanity movement. I would have concentrated more on how alone and persecuted mutants were, and less on mutant vs mutant battles.
Spider-Man Films Spider-Man 2 is clearly a better film than the first. The omission of this in favour of the first film is my biggest head-scratcher on the list. The fist was a good film, but had one major flaw (although it had to be pointed out to me... by Loomis of all people. But now I 'know' it, I can't watch the film in the same way again). The fact is the most dramatic confrontations in the film are between two characters who are masked - the Green Goblin especially having a major disadvantage because of his rigid mask. Once you have that pointed out, the film tends to loose a lot of it's drama.
Doctor Octopus in the sequel was one of two comic characters who actually are improved dramatically when comitted to film.
Now the worst films.
DareDevil
What the heck is wrong with Daredevil? Why does it always get so much hatred? I know I'd rather have Daredevil than Batman Begins anyday. I think Daredevil is almost everything right - a good compact origin without going into pseudo-intellectulism which is something these these types of films are indulging in more and more these days. A good villain in the form of Bullseye, who I have to say was the first villain to be better on film than he is in print (Dr Octopus being the second). A somewhat gritty, smaller storyline which suited the character (which is probably one thing it did 'wrong' to people expecting another Spider-Man). It failed a bit with Elektra, who muddled things up a bit plot wise (but, you know, every film must have its romance quota) and by casting Ben Affleck in the lead role. I don't quite know why Affleck gets so much hatred - to me he's just a normal actor... I don't have strong opinions on him either way.
Fantastic Four Fantastic Four well, this was far from the disaster most people claim it was. In the trend for 'darkenss' I was pleased to see the film retain most of the fun and wonder of the comic book series. The Fantastic Four has always been about the family, friendship, humour, exploration and brain scrambling pseudo-science, and the film captured a lot of this. I also liked how colourful and alive the film felt.
However, it wasn't flawless - Doom himself was a major letdown - I can cope with a somewhat changed origin and powers, but he just never felt like Doom. His attitude, his voice patterns and even his stance were all wrong. (But he was somewhat redeemed in the final 15 minutes or so and could be good in a sequel if they keep him the same as we last saw him). A bigger flaw was how little action the film had - too much of it was talking heads. Still, I enjoyed it.
The Hulk
Finally we come to perhaps the most hated of all the movies, The Hulk. I think this is bashed so much because people had so much hope being as Ang Lee was directing. Well, I'll go right out on a limb and say people don't know a good, authentic, comic book movie when they see one. The Hulk was everything Peter David had been doing in the comic book for over a decade. You can't have a long running comic book based on a stupid character who just smashes things up - David recognised this - and you can't have a 2 hour film based on the same - Lee recognised this. True, we do get another over analysed origin, something I'm normally against in principle. But the comic book under David was nothing more than a 10 year psycho-analysis of Bruce Banner/The Hulk so I'll let this slip. Unlike Batman which is about cool battles and deduction, Hulk was about Bruce's mind. The only bad thing about the movie was the fact that Bruce's dad become a sort of pseudo-Absorbing Man because "convention" demanded a superhero battle at the end of the movie.
i don't know why spy kids and the rocketeer are on this list. I personally see them as superhero movies. At least movies like SpiderMan and Xmen and The Incredibles got the spots that they deserve. I have never seen any of the Batman or Superman movies all the way through.
Those lists are so completely off for all of the reasons Aaron said (X2 and Spidey 2 flatten their originals; Batman Returns, while my favorite of the prior series, isn't as good as Batman Begins). I also agree with Jake in that the original Superman is much better than the second, and that the new one beats both. Hulk admittedly has a lot of problems, the worst of which is its meandering pacing, but it doesn't deserve to be considered one of the worst superhero films. At least Ang Lee had the guts to try something different and thought-provoking as opposed to the mindless action fest everyone was expecting. I can't defend Fantastic Four. I like it as a silly popcorn flick, but can understand why most people hate it.
What angers me most, though, is Daredevil being on the "Worst of" list. The director's cut of the film is my personal favorite superhero movie, period. Even the inferior theatrical cut (which is undoubtedly what the editors are going by) is still better than most other superhero films. I wish Fox had released the director's cut to theaters the first time instead of butchering it down to a barebones story. I think Daredevil would have much better reputation if the DC was what everyone saw.
I dont agree with the list at all X-Men #1, X-Men 2 was better, Also the First Batman with the Joker was best not Batman Returns,And Spykids- give me a break. whoever made this list does not now what there talking about
I still haven't seen Batman Begins yet, but I am very surprised that Batman Returns was chosen over '89 Batman. Every critic I can think of thought the original was better. I'm scared to watch Batman Begins. I haven't heard one person say it was bad, so if I see it and I don't like it... the world will be very, very sorry on that day.
First, to whoever moved this from General Discussion, to Off-Topic. I put it in General Discussion, because a Disney/Pixar film made the list. That seems On-Topic to me.
Second, to those who disagree with the list...it's a list. It's a matter of personal opinion. So, Memnv, the people who created the list are giving their opinion, which is why they DO know what they are talking about. Even if we do not agree with the list, it is their opinion. I, personally, don't agree with most of the list. I think that Spider-Man 2 and X2 should have been on the list, instead of their originals, and that Superman: The Movie is a much more thought provoking film than Superman II.
Finally, to Lazario. You really should watch Batman Begins. It ends up being a great film. However, you will have to go in not expecting it to blow you away. I didn't see the film in theaters, and I, too, heard how great everyone thought the film was. I decided to pick up the Deluxe DVD when it was released, because I wanted to add it to my collection. I finally sat down to watch it, and all I kept thinking was, when is this going to get good. I finally turned it off, and decided to start it over again, the next day. I thought about why I wasn't enjoying the film, and I talked to a friend of mine, and she said, "Did you watch it from beginning to end?" I told her that I hadn't, and that I was very confused about it. She told me to go in, erase what I knew from the previous films, and be patient. The real action of it doesn't really even start until half-way into the film. So, I did what she suggested. I cleared my mind, and I sat down to watch. By the time the last frame had finished, I wanted to watch it, again. So, I did. Much more enjoyable the second time around, because I was able to wrap my head around everything that had happened. Needless to say, I ended up really liking this film. I didn't like it, instantly, but, after watching it, twice, I really enjoy it, and I'm very excited about what's coming next!
May I say this again.They obviously don't know what there talking about.
How about for worst superhero movies
Adventures of Shark Boy and Lava Girl
I would also prefer to watch Daredevil, Fantastic Four, Hulk over some of the Darkman movies, the first Punisher, Howard the Duck, Superman III and IV, Elektra or even Supergirl(which is ok).
Also what about the old Batman movie based off the tv show
More than 50 experts, ranging from comic book creators to filmmakers and producers to the actors who brought these characters to life, were consulted for the formation of the super-powered top 20 countdown lists in each category.
1) Spider-Man
2) Superman
3) Batman
4) Indiana Jones
5) James Bond
***********
6) Luke Skywalker
7) X-Men The Incredibles
9) The Fantastic Four
That was the order the top 5 was in on tv; so now you don't have to watch it. Anyways, I think this is a more accurate list and #8 is still good for a franchise that only made one movie with no comics or tv shows. One commented they were blown away by this film. And what makes The Incredibles different from the others, they said, was it showed the life of a superhero trying to live underground which many other super heroes have not done.
Before I give my own list, I'd like to point out that MSN's list is good in that it gets you to think about what heroes you like and why. If it had just been something close to the general Internet consensus, then you would probably have just agreed and moved on. By giving us a more controversial list, they get more attention.
Here are my choices:
1. X2: X-Men United
2. The Incredibles
3. Batman Forever
4. Batman Begins
5. Spider-Man
Superman Returns and Superman: The Movie get honorable mentions. They are fabulous, but they have just enough flaws to keep them from my top five.
"Mustard? Don't let's be silly!"
--Mad Hatter, Alice in Wonderland
). I think it's a little disrespectful to put a rather unoriginal movie so high.
The Incredibles
