Animation Quality...Again!

[Jules]

Listen, I don't want to bore anyone with the same discussions, but I need to post this quickly as I haven't been to UD forums for about a week, and I need to hurry up before I waste much more internet hours. So, here goes:

Some time ago I created a topic called 'What is GOOD animation?' Those who replied will remember it.
I just saw 'Spirit: Stallion of the Cimarron' and the animation is just gorgeous. I was wondering whether this was superior to Disney's traditional animation. My mind seems to be pointing to 'Yes'. I don't think I've ever seen such spectacular animation from Disney. In the respective DVD's bonus features, Jeffrey Katzenberg says that it is the most complex hand-drawn animated film to date, and is the most technologically advanced animated film (For example, the blending of commputer effects with traditional animation and the three minute opening scene). While listening to Mister Katzenberg on my TV I thought that it was indeed superior to anything Disney had ever done.

But then I thought of Disney's 'Treasure Planet'. I remembered being dazzled with its animation and visual effects, but I saw it so long ago now, that I don't know if it's on par with 'Spirit'.

Oh, and someone at school told me that Dreamworks provided the visual effects for Disney's 'Treasure Planet' because Disney did not have the technology. Is it true!?

[2099net]

When I was at school, my art teacher told us the hardest thing to draw was a horse. So yes, Dreamworks did an amazing job animating Spirit. Sadly, the movie wasn't up to much in my opinion.

Oh, and someone at school told me that Dreamworks provided the visual effects for Disney's 'Treasure Planet' because Disney did not have the technology. Is it true!?

I hope not. Because the CGI backgrounds didn't really blend with the animation (although the character animation on John Silver's arm and B.E.N. was flawless).

I don't think it's true though. After all Disney pioneered that sort of thing with Tarzan's "Deep Canvas"

[Lord Yupa]

"Good animation" is simply animation that feels good -- that feels right -- as you watch it unfold on screen, no matter what techniques are used or how many inbetweens are drawn. Personally, I was slightly distanced from the characters in Treasure Planet because the movement was way overdone, in my opinion. Great techniques and all, but maybe just a little cold. Spirit, however, has great animation, with equally great techniques, in retrospect. It just felt so natural and expressive and stunning, what full-animation should be like. However, here is what I think is the greatest animated scene I have seen, in my opinion, from Kiki's Delivery Service. It may not be as complex or sophisticated as scenes in other animated films, but I love it all the same: http://youtube.com/watch?v=JrN1-fImVSg And it's all done by hand .

But who cares about animation quality, anyway? It's the story and characters that count the most. Everything else comes after.

[Prince Eric]

Spirit: Stallion of the Cimmaron is a beautiful movie to look at, but that's about it. It really didn't have much going for it in terms of compelling characters or entertaining storyline. Great animation doesn't necessarily equate great animated films, as this film shows.

[Timon/Pumbaa fan]

"However, here is what I think is the greatest animated scene I have seen, in my opinion, from Kiki's Delivery Service. It may not be as complex or sophisticated as scenes in other animated films, but I love it all the same: http://youtube.com/watch?v=JrN1-fImVSg And it's all done by hand .

Wow, strongly disagree there.

IMO Kiki was pretty bland. Not just in story but animation wise as well. I never got why the Ghibli fans love it so much. It was pretty boring. IMO, Treasure Planet had more impressive animation in just one scene than all of Kiki.

As for Spirit: Stallion of the Cimmaron(I hope this is spelled right since I'm just copying and pasting this from Prince Eric ) is pretty good for a Dreamworks film. Beautiful animation and some exciting moments. Sadly though, the music could've been much better, and the story itself isn't mindblowing on any level, but overall, compared to Dreamwork's other efforts, a decent movie!

[TheSequelOfDisney]

I actually liked this movie. Spirit looked abosolutely amazing, as did all of the other horses. I liked the plot, and the way the story flowed. I guess I'm just an oddball.

[Lord Yupa]

"However, here is what I think is the greatest animated scene I have seen, in my opinion, from Kiki's Delivery Service. It may not be as complex or sophisticated as scenes in other animated films, but I love it all the same: http://youtube.com/watch?v=JrN1-fImVSg And it's all done by hand .

Wow, strongly disagree there.

IMO Kiki was pretty bland. Not just in story but animation wise as well. I never got why the Ghibli fans love it so much. It was pretty boring. IMO, Treasure Planet had more impressive animation in just one scene than all of Kiki.

As for Spirit: Stallion of the Cimmaron(I hope this is spelled right since I'm just copying and pasting this from Prince Eric ) is pretty good for a Dreamworks film. Beautiful animation and some exciting moments. Sadly though, the music could've been much better, and the story itself isn't mindblowing on any level, but overall, compared to Dreamwork's other efforts, a decent movie!

Well, I strongly disagree with your statement.
I'm sorry, but I don't look for "showing-off" virtuosity when I watch animation. Treasure Planet has tons of that, and it just doesn't interest me. That's why I'm more fond of the subtlety of early Disney than the "flouncing pantomime" of new Disney. And to me, Kiki reminds me visually of what Disney used to make. It's just astounding that it was all done by hand. The animation in early Disney, Studio Ghibli, and Les Armateur's* work is naturalistic and has a sense of presence and space. But it isn't hyperactive, trying to cram as much movement into three seconds as it can. You can achieve the "Illusion of Life" just fine without endless hyperactivity. My favorite Disney film in terms of animation is Sleeping Beauty, by the way; I guess you can see why now . Feel free to strongly disagree.

*Note that Les Armateurs is a mostly hand-drawn animation studio in France known for such films as "Kirikou and the Sorceress" and "The Triplets of Belleville".

[Timon/Pumbaa fan]

Well, I strongly disagree with your statement.
I'm sorry, but I don't look for "showing-off" virtuosity when I watch animation. Treasure Planet has tons of that, and it just doesn't interest me. That's why I'm more fond of the subtlety of early Disney than the "flouncing pantomime" of new Disney. And to me, Kiki reminds me visually of what Disney used to make. It's just astounding that it was all done by hand. The animation in early Disney, Studio Ghibli, and Les Armateur's* work is naturalistic and has a sense of presence and space. But it isn't hyperactive, trying to cram as much movement into three seconds as it can. You can achieve the "Illusion of Life" just fine without endless hyperactivity. My favorite Disney film in terms of animation is Sleeping Beauty, by the way; I guess you can see why now . Feel free to strongly disagree.

*Note that Les Armateurs is a mostly hand-drawn animation studio in France known for such films as "Kirikou and the Sorceress" and "The Triplets of Belleville".

Hmmm, interesting. However, do you like "Spirited Away". I thought there was a LOT of movement in that movie. I do like that movie a lot, however I think it's because it has MUCH more movement than any anime I've ever seen, even other projects from Studio Ghibli.

Oh and in terms of animation, my favorite film is Pinocchio.

[Lord Yupa]

Well, I strongly disagree with your statement.
I'm sorry, but I don't look for "showing-off" virtuosity when I watch animation. Treasure Planet has tons of that, and it just doesn't interest me. That's why I'm more fond of the subtlety of early Disney than the "flouncing pantomime" of new Disney. And to me, Kiki reminds me visually of what Disney used to make. It's just astounding that it was all done by hand. The animation in early Disney, Studio Ghibli, and Les Armateur's* work is naturalistic and has a sense of presence and space. But it isn't hyperactive, trying to cram as much movement into three seconds as it can. You can achieve the "Illusion of Life" just fine without endless hyperactivity. My favorite Disney film in terms of animation is Sleeping Beauty, by the way; I guess you can see why now . Feel free to strongly disagree.

*Note that Les Armateurs is a mostly hand-drawn animation studio in France known for such films as "Kirikou and the Sorceress" and "The Triplets of Belleville".

Hmmm, interesting. However, do you like "Spirited Away". I thought there was a LOT of movement in that movie. I do like that movie a lot, however I think it's because it has MUCH more movement than any anime I've ever seen, even other projects from Studio Ghibli.

Oh and in terms of animation, my favorite film is Pinocchio.

Yes, I love Spirited Away -- it is very beautifully animated, and one of the three peaks of Miyazaki's storytelling (the other two being Nausicaa and Totoro). Pinocchio is a great film as well, probably the best of Disney's pre-WWII films.

[slyslayer3000]

I don't care about the animation. The important thing is how the animated film turned out to be a wonderful one. Spirit: Stallion of the Cimarron is really one of my non-Disney favorites. I watched it 3 years ago and I think it's a job well done for Dreamworks. It's a heart-warming tale with amaing songs and cute characters.
The film really made Spirit desperate, after being captured and sent away from his family, then a man was also captured, then they escaped together, then Spirit met Rain, then they have to escape again, then Rain was badly hurt, then Spirit was captured again, then Spirit and the other horses have to pull a train, then Spirit managed to escape but put himself into danger, luckily the man rescued him, then the man let Rain go with Spirit to be free and to return to the place where Spirit belong.
What a story!

[anger is pointless]

yes spirit is a wonderful movie i remember watching the opening with my mouth hanging open lol yes the animation is that good

[TheSequelOfDisney]

When I first saw Spirited Away, I was completley and utterly amazed. It........ how should I put this............... it spirited me away

[Karushifa]

Well, I strongly disagree with your statement.
I'm sorry, but I don't look for "showing-off" virtuosity when I watch animation. Treasure Planet has tons of that, and it just doesn't interest me. That's why I'm more fond of the subtlety of early Disney than the "flouncing pantomime" of new Disney. And to me, Kiki reminds me visually of what Disney used to make. It's just astounding that it was all done by hand. The animation in early Disney, Studio Ghibli, and Les Armateur's* work is naturalistic and has a sense of presence and space. But it isn't hyperactive, trying to cram as much movement into three seconds as it can. You can achieve the "Illusion of Life" just fine without endless hyperactivity. My favorite Disney film in terms of animation is Sleeping Beauty, by the way; I guess you can see why now . Feel free to strongly disagree.

*Note that Les Armateurs is a mostly hand-drawn animation studio in France known for such films as "Kirikou and the Sorceress" and "The Triplets of Belleville".

Hmmm, interesting. However, do you like "Spirited Away". I thought there was a LOT of movement in that movie. I do like that movie a lot, however I think it's because it has MUCH more movement than any anime I've ever seen, even other projects from Studio Ghibli.

I think I can see what Lord Yupa was trying to get at here. It's not just the fact that there IS movement in a film, but also a huge part of it is: were the particular movements necessary? Spirited Away has a lot of action, of course, but my absolute favorite scene in that movie - which brings me to tears on its own - is where Chihiro is riding the train to see Zeniba. While the train itself is moving, nearly everything in the background is static, including some gorgeous landscapes that look astoundingly like Edward Hopper paintings. In that particular scene, you don't need hyperactive flourishes to establish the mood, because it's supposed to be a very quiet, subtle scene.

Now, Kiki's Delivery Service is a very "slice of life" film that, VERY much like Whisper of the Heart, is not supposed to be all action and flourish. In fact, if Kiki were a "real" teenage girl instead of a witch those two films would be almost the same. Yet no one really faults Whisper for being boring, because it's supposed to be about those subtle, everyday things that real people go through. Both movies are about young girls trying to find their places in the world, and Kiki's witchood is a plot device much like Shizuku's love for writing is in Whisper. Interchange them with other loves or hobbies, and the basic story would be the same. As in real life, there's no real villain and no saving the world plot. But, for someone who was once in Kiki's or Shizuku's places, I can identify with them a lot more than with other movie charcters. You don't need whiz-bang animation to love a film.

[Jules]

Well, yes, after all animation is not THE only thing that concerns an animated film.

Let's take Dreamworks' 'Spirit' and 'Sinbad' and Disney's 'Treasure Planet' as animation show-offs, with tons of technology fueling the astounding visuals.

But, maybe the animation of BEAST by Glen Keane is just as impressive as the animation in 'Spirit' even though it doesn't have all the camera moves and the latest technology and mind-boggling visuals of 'Spirit'.

And I think everybody agrees that 'Beauty and the Beast' is still a better movie than 'Spirit'.
And it was nominated for 'Best Picture'.

So I suppose Disney will always be the champions of 2D (in America at least).

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


My 36 year old brother told me that he read something on a local newspaper about a Japanese animated film having not amazing but 'incredible animation'.

I asked him if it was a Hayao Miyazaki film.

He said yes that's it.

I asked him if it was called 'Howl's Moving Castle'.

He said he doesn't think so.

I asked if he remembered what it was called.

He said no.

* * *

Anyone have any ideas? Maybe it's a new Miyazaki production? What so ground-breaking about it?

[Lord Yupa]

My 36 year old brother told me that he read something on a local newspaper about a Japanese animated film having not amazing but 'incredible animation'.

I asked him if it was a Hayao Miyazaki film.

He said yes that's it.

I asked him if it was called 'Howl's Moving Castle'.

He said he doesn't think so.

I asked if he remembered what it was called.

He said no.

Anyone have any ideas? Maybe it's a new Miyazaki production? What so ground-breaking about it?

Why should animation be "ground-breaking"? Was J.S. Bach "ground-breaking"? Hardly so .
Maybe he was talking about the upcoming "Tales from Earthsea" directed by Hayao Miyazaki's son Goro Miyazaki.
You can see a trailer for it here: http://rose-schwarzes.hp.infoseek.co.jp ... 2b-320.wmv