The Princess and the Frog Discussion - Part III

[Dragonlion]

True, but so did Christmas Carol, and that was released quickly (unless the international versions settle for subtitles, which is easier to make and release).

They could have dubbed some languages during post-production, though.

[Just.A.Friend]

It apparently already hit 100 million thanks to world wide numbers, but I can't find the data anywhere.

Europe will supposedly get the film in February.

http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2009/FROGP.php

US Gross has broke 80 million with today's sales.
Worldwide Gross: 106 million since yesterday.

Princess and the frog still holds steady with 3.5 million yesterday. It's had a steady 3 million intake since the 18th of December. It's doing very well in keeping those numbers.

And yes, most of the rest of the world gets the film around late January or February.

[jpanimation]

Well expect the gross to slow down once school starts but worldwide gross should pick up shortly after. It may not be breaking records but its beating the crap out of Home on the Range and Treasure Planet (the two biggest flops that Disney used as reasoning for shutting down the traditional animation department). I expect the domestic gross to at least break even with its production cost.

[DisneyJedi]

Well expect the gross to slow down once school starts but worldwide gross should pick up shortly after.

That's exactly what I've been saying/thinking for a couple of days.

[Disney's Divinity]

Oh, no, it's just that many people have noticed that PatF has some serious story issues... We took as given that the story will be flawless just because a renowned storytelling/directorial team was at the helm. On the other hand, Newman's music was expected to be the weak link of the movie and he delivered a mighty fine soundtrack. It just goes to show you should never assume anything before you actually see the finished product.

You know, I'm a little irritated that people are starting to think badly of Musker and Clements (I remember some person even saying something along lines of: "Good news they don't have their hands on The Snow Queen"). True, not everything a director makes is gold, but it's hard to accept that thinking here when the "issues" haven't been clearly explained at all. Yes, I would agree that there is a quickness in one or two scenes of the film, but is that reason enough to call the whole film an overly fast disaster? Haven't other Disney films been like this? Personally, watching some of their older works feels like riding a roller coaster. And why is "brief and to the point" a bad thing anyway? Some movies go slow, some go fast. I personally like TP&TF the way it is. Adding in 15+ unnecessary minutes wouldn't have changed how I felt about it, although of course it might not have hurt it either.

Also, I never understand why people criticize some movies in an effort to make other films look good. Personally, I found none of the "Fab 4" protagonists whiny and yet I also enjoyed those that came after--I must be a freak for liking different types of characters simultaneously.

[Mooky]

You know, I'm a little irritated that people are starting to think badly of Musker and Clements (I remember some person even saying something along lines of: "Good news they don't have their hands on The Snow Queen").

I believe that "some person" was me, and what I said was:

after seeing PatF, I'm VERY happy Ron & John are nowhere near "Snow Queen"

And truthfully, if PatF was any indicator of how their version of "Snow Queen" might have looked (note that we don't even know if they were ever considered for the job), then yes, I'm VERY glad they didn't get to work on it. What, am I not allowed to be displeased with them just because they directed several great movies for Disney (including two of my favorites)? Quite frankly, that seems to be the same kind of attitude that doesn't allow Walt's films to be criticized just because they're Walt's.

True, not everything a director makes is gold, but it's hard to accept that thinking here when the "issues" haven't been clearly explained at all.

Okay, you wanna talk "issues", let's talk issues: characters that just appear without any sort of introduction (Naveen, Dr. Facilier, Lawrence), characters that aren't given a proper closure (Lawrence), characters with no clear motivation for their actions (Louis and Dr. Facilier), and the aforementioned pacing. If you have no problems with any of these, fine by me.

Yes, I would agree that there is a quickness in one or two scenes of the film, but is that reason enough to call the whole film an overly fast disaster?

Nobody here called it that.

Again, I really liked the whole movie, loved the songs and characters, got teary-eyed many times, but the flaws I mentioned earlier held me back from enjoying it more.

[PrincePhillipFan]

Also, I never understand why people criticize some movies in an effort to make other films look good. Personally, I found none of the "Fab 4" protagonists whiny and yet I also enjoyed those that came after--I must be a freak for liking different types of characters simultaneously.

I agree with most of what you said earlier in your post Divinity, but I had no intentions of attacking the fab four in defense of Princess and the Frog. I simply stated my opinion that I always felt that way about the characters in the "Fab Four" (with the expection of Beast) for a long time, and if it came off as an attack to defend my liking for PatF, then I'm sorry. I merely expressed how I felt about those characters for a long while and why in my personal opinion I think they're sometimes overtly praised and why I never connected to them. This doesn't hinder my personal enjoyment however of them. Despite some of the problems I have with the protagonists, Little Mermaid and Beauty and the Beast are films I still immensely enjoy for the other characters like Beast and Ursula, the music, and the overall story.

Sorry for the unnecessary long response, but I felt a bit as if you were almost mocking me or pointing me out. I think this is the main reason why I stay out of the Disney Discussion any more as my favorite films always seem to be shot down by other posters, while the ones I don't like everyone's quick to defend and berate the hell out of me.

[PatrickvD]

TPATF increase at the Box Office this weekend and now stands at $86 million. It's pretty much locked up for $100 million now, making it one of only three traditionally animated films to make over $100 million the past decade.

After a weak start, this is quite a recovery. Not that many films come back from 50% second weekend drop. Especially not with Avatar and the chipmunks taking away from its target demo.

[Babaloo]

You know, I'm a little irritated that people are starting to think badly of Musker and Clements (I remember some person even saying something along lines of: "Good news they don't have their hands on The Snow Queen").

The reason I'm happy Ron and John aren't doing Snow Queen is not because they're bad directors but because their style. I don't know if anyone is with me on this one, but I don't think Snow Queen should be as light as their type of movies. I think it should follow more of a serious tone. But you never know, maybe it needs to be lighter. I personally think that they did a great job on PatF and nothing needed to change (other than I wish they did have a standout song and a couple of characters were explored further).

On a side note, I really think this movie is doing well in attracting audiences. I was talking to my friend yesterday (this guy is one of those jocks in school who thinks they're popular) and he said he was going to see a movie with his friends and wanted to know if I wanted to come. To my amazement he said they were going to see PatF . I was so surprised that he said this since I thought he would be the last person to step into a theatre for an animated Disney movie. So I do think that this movie is doing well if good word got around enough for my friend to say he wanted to see it .

And I'm so happy to see PatF keeping with a steady income. $3.5 million per day is good enough for me! With the 86 million, there still will be Sunday numbers to add on to that. And everyone thinks that the numbers will drop once school starts again. I actually think it will continue doing well since I think kids will tell their friends about the movie, and will want to see it again. Don't know if that makes sense.

[singerguy04]

True, not everything a director makes is gold, but it's hard to accept that thinking here when the "issues" haven't been clearly explained at all.

Okay, you wanna talk "issues", let's talk issues: characters that just appear without any sort of introduction (Naveen, Dr. Facilier, Lawrence), characters that aren't given a proper closure (Lawrence), characters with no clear motivation for their actions (Louis and Dr. Facilier), and the aforementioned pacing. If you have no problems with any of these, fine by me.

not to be nit-picky but I don't see how someone can say that Naveen, Dr. Faclier, and Lawrence weren't properly introduced. Is it just because their motives and drives aren't brought to our attention the second they appear on screen? If that's it, that's just plain silly. We do learn that Naveen is in New Orleans to try to find a wealthy wife so he can continue living his lavish lifestyle. Lawrence is there because it's his job to be a royal servant. Dr. Facilier is a weaker villain but it's safe to assume he has made a deal with his friends from the other side to maintain his powers and ultimately his life. His song provides that much information almost on its own, and that also provides a source for motivation. He also seems to want to gain control over the city. These motives for Facilier could have been explored further, but IMO that would've distracted from the actual story which was Naveen and Tiana's relationship. None of those facts are brought to our attention right away though, but they certainly do come to light in the process of the film.

Lawrence did receive closure, he was thrown in jail for disguising himself as Naveen to trick Charollete into marrying him so he could have money and power. True, we don't know his sentence but being sent to jail certainly provides closure for this character.

Louis is pretty weak though, I agree with most points brought against him. He certainly is a fun character and in a way quite lovable, but it does seem extremely simple that all he wants to do is "play with the big boys". It'd be far more interesting if he was a outcast among the gator community therefore finding solace in playing the trumpet only to be rejected further for finding an even stranger hobby for a gator. Then to be rejected again by the human community on top of all that. This eventually leading to the discovery of friendship with Ray, Tiana, and Naveen on top of being able to play in public eventually.... I really wish I could've developed Louis....

[PatrickvD]

And I'm so happy to see PatF keeping with a steady income. $3.5 million per day is good enough for me! With the 86 million, there still will be Sunday numbers to add on to that.

$86 million is including the sunday estimates.

[Babaloo]

$86 million is including the sunday estimates.

Oh okay I thought so, but it made me happy to think that didn't include Sunday estimates . But for all we know PatF might do amazing today!

[Disney's Divinity]

What, am I not allowed to be displeased with them just because they directed several great movies for Disney (including two of my favorites)? Quite frankly, that seems to be the same kind of attitude that doesn't allow Walt's films to be criticized just because they're Walt's.

Except your attitude would indicate that they shouldn't work on any other films ever again. It's like saying Walt should've stopped after he made Alice (because it was generally thought to be a failure).

Okay, you wanna talk "issues", let's talk issues: characters that just appear without any sort of introduction (Naveen, Dr. Facilier, Lawrence), characters that aren't given a proper closure (Lawrence),

I agree somewhat on these "issues," but not to the extent that you do. Sure, N, F, and L could've used a stronger intro., but a character doesn't have to throw himself in front of the camera and say, "Hey, I'm the spoiled prince who doesn't care about anything," to be introduced. And Lawrence had closure as well (as another poster already stated); just because neither of these scenes are extended doesn't mean you don't get the intro/closure necessary. True, I agree that it could've been a bit better if done differently, but that doesn't mean I thought the way it was done was bad. As for Louis and Facilier's motivations: yeah, can't say I understand that one, they were explained pretty well to me.

I suppose it just comes down to opinion though. You can dislike things about TP&TF all you want, that's not what I was irritated with. Just the whole tone of your post/s make it seem like M&C are complete failures, better luck next time (although you wouldn't want there to be a next time, it seems).

Babaloo, that's a more reasonable explanation for why M&C don't belong on TSQ. Although I would argue they can do more serious films, if Treasure Planet is any indication (but that one's got mixed opinions, too, so...). And the thing I've always like about Mermaid and Hercules is that, while they are obviously comedic, they seem to find a seriousness at times because they are so. But, as Lassater used as a reason for why Newman did the work on TP&TF, it's probably a good idea to have various different directors rather than one team do everything.

I think this is the main reason why I stay out of the Disney Discussion any more as my favorite films always seem to be shot down by other posters, while the ones I don't like everyone's quick to defend and berate the hell out of me.

Not to sound harsh, but I don’t think it’s just your favorites at all. Sure, there are usually gigantic debates over Sleeping Beauty (which I think is your favorite movie?), but I also see endless B&tB and TLK kick-me threads, and nearly every “princess” film (and fan) seems to get subtly mocked just because they have a princess in them. And then there’s the somewhat controversial late 90s films, and the generally dumped-on 2000s, 70s and 80s. Surely this doesn’t just happen to you.

[Babaloo]

And the thing I've always like about Mermaid and Hercules is that, while they are obviously comedic, they seem to find a seriousness at times because they are so. But, as Lassater used as a reason for why Newman did the work on TP&TF, it's probably a good idea to have various different directors rather than one team do everything.

Oh I agree completely about Mermaid and Hercules (even Aladdin for me). They are comedic but find a balance when they have their serious moments. Hercules and Mermaid are two of my favourite films. But what I don't want for Snow Queen is the type elements they tend to include in their movies like comedic sidekicks (I'm really hoping that Snowman was scrapped). But I'm getting off the main topic now...

PatF ranks high in my opinion among the DAC's. I think it did really well and exceeded my expectations especially now that I've had time to think about it.

[PrincePhillipFan]

Not to sound harsh, but I don’t think it’s just your favorites at all. Sure, there are usually gigantic debates over Sleeping Beauty (which I think is your favorite movie?), but I also see endless B&tB and TLK kick-me threads, and nearly every “princess” film (and fan) seems to get subtly mocked just because they have a princess in them. And then there’s the somewhat controversial late 90s films, and the generally dumped-on 2000s, 70s and 80s. Surely this doesn’t just happen to you.

Don't get me wrong, I know for certain others do, but all the films that you just listed that get punched all the time are like my top five favorite Disney films beside Sleeping Beauty. In my top five, I would probably name Sleeping Beauty, Snow White, Hercules, Atlantis: The Lost Empire, and now The Princess And The Frog as all of my favorites, all of which a lot of posters have said generally critical reviews. I know for sure it's not only happened to me, but with five out of my five favorites often knocked a ton of times, I sure feel like a real loser.

[Avaitor]

Looking like a $10 million intake this weekend. Excellent.

[Mooky]

You can dislike things about TP&TF all you want, that's not what I was irritated with. Just the whole tone of your post/s make it seem like M&C are complete failures, better luck next time (although you wouldn't want there to be a next time, it seems).

Well, sorry, I guess I should have made myself more clear... My reason for not wanting Ron & John on TSQ is pretty much what Babaloo said – it's just that their whole style (particularly the way it was presented in PatF) seems unfitting for what I think "Snow Queen" should be like. It's quite possible some of my disappointment with PatF stems from expecting it to be more like TLM and getting another Aladdin/Hercules instead. That certainly doesn't mean I think they should be kicked out of business. So by all means, give them more movies to work on.

I suppose it just comes down to opinion though.

Exactly right and that's why I won't go into another round of explaining why those story problems bother me more than they bother you. Let's just agree to disagree.

[jpanimation]

I think this is the main reason why I stay out of the Disney Discussion any more as my favorite films always seem to be shot down by other posters, while the ones I don't like everyone's quick to defend and berate the hell out of me.

Don't get me wrong, I know for certain others do, but all the films that you just listed that get punched all the time are like my top five favorite Disney films beside Sleeping Beauty. In my top five, I would probably name Sleeping Beauty, Snow White, Hercules, Atlantis: The Lost Empire, and now The Princess And The Frog as all of my favorites, all of which a lot of posters have said generally critical reviews. I know for sure it's not only happened to me, but with five out of my five favorites often knocked a ton of times, I sure feel like a real loser.

Don't feel like a loser. Everyone having different opinions/tastes adds to our individualism and makes us individuals (unique). This is part of what makes us who we are and what makes life so great. If every was the same, we'd all be sheep (you know what I mean). It'll help you to remember that everyone feels their opinion is the right one, and then maybe you won't take them as personal attacks.

While none of your favorites are my favorites, I don't think any of those movies are bad movies. I love Snow White, REALLY love Hercules (best Hades interpretation ever), I thought Atlantis was a nice departure from the norm (even if it wasn't executed that well), and The Princess And The Frog is the best animated film in nearly five years. Don't feel bad if people don't have the same movie tastes as you. While we may both be watching the same thing, what we're getting out of it is different, and what really matters is that you enjoy it. Aladdin is my favorite Disney Renaissance film and it was the worst selling Platinum but Sleeping Beauty did better and I don't care for it. So obviously your not alone in your love for those movies so you don't need to defend them feeling alone.

Louis is pretty weak though, I agree with most points brought against him. He certainly is a fun character and in a way quite lovable, but it does seem extremely simple that all he wants to do is "play with the big boys". It'd be far more interesting if he was a outcast among the gator community therefore finding solace in playing the trumpet only to be rejected further for finding an even stranger hobby for a gator. Then to be rejected again by the human community on top of all that. This eventually leading to the discovery of friendship with Ray, Tiana, and Naveen on top of being able to play in public eventually.... I really wish I could've developed Louis....

Wow, you just developed the character yourself

I was actually thinking the same thing for his backstory (would've made his character better). I like to think Dr. Facilier lost a love one or was about to lose one and made a deal with the friends on the otherside to save them. Just like in Fullmetal Alchemist, his efforts were in vein and tragedy ensued. Now he has become embittered, losing his loved one while still owing the friends on the otherside, and it has made him the conniving person we see in the film.

After a weak start, this is quite a recovery. Not that many films come back from 50% second weekend drop. Especially not with Avatar and the chipmunks taking away from its target demo.

I must say, its doing better then I expected. Could it be a bunch of closet traditional animation lovers are coming out of the woodwork? Either way, its not breaking records but its doing well enough to say traditional animation is safe.

[Mr arrow]

AT A SCREENING IN AUSTRALIA:
Nice to see its picking up again in the U.S.
Here in Australia it appears the legacy of the electronic direct to dvd babysitter continues its cancerous attack on disney features. (For those who love the direct to dvds-please do not be offended- I will explain)
I noticed something interesting yesterday at a screening of PATF and I realised that Disney marketing are going to have to work very hard if they want to reinstate what they had prior to the age of the dvd sequel -at least here in Australia.

For starters- The film was already delegated to a tiny screen in its opening days at one major complex. As I lined up with kids in tow I could hear the general comments of parents and kids discussing movies to go and see - none of them could even understand what PATF was and the level of disinterest couldnt have been and higher.
The loads of pre-teen girls that a couple of decades ago would have cued for Aladdin BATB or The Lion King - much to my surprise were going to thier umpteenth screening of New Moon.
Honestly, the marketing for PATF here in Australia appears to have gone over or under the radar of its intended demographic... Word of mouth MAY help it and I believe it will in time but to make matters worse when we finally got into the theatre (an oversized closet by the way- (Avatar, it seems, has hijacked all the big screens) there was just a handfull of people who, like our family, eager to enjoy the movie.

HOWEVER, prior to the movie starting some selfish parents decided to use the movie as a drop off daycare centre for their out of control, hyperactive and very noisy offspring who decided to spend the duration of the entire film playing -catch me if you can and a hundred other 'Look at Me' raucous games while parents went shopping.
And so it had happened - The disney feature having climbed out of the kiddie-fare swamp in the early 90's to a must see attraction for the entire family has, at least, in the town where I live found itself back in the babysitter swamp once again.
As for the movie Im sure it was good but our family had to pay the price to be distracted by a gang of rather naughty children jumping on chairs and screaming while their parents remained blissfully unaware that their darlings had completely ruined the afternoon for the rest of us!
Cant wait for it on BLU!
Im sorry for those who do not see any harm done by the video sequels but I believe the decade of the direct to dvd babysitter has a lot to answer for!

[jpanimation]

Here in Australia it appears the legacy of the electronic direct to dvd babysitter continues its cancerous attack on disney features. (For those who love the direct to dvds-please do not be offended- I will explain)
I noticed something interesting yesterday at a screening of PATF and I realised that Disney marketing are going to have to work very hard if they want to reinstate what they had prior to the age of the dvd sequel -at least here in Australia.

Yeah, for years its been computer animated films in theaters and traditionally animated films were DTV. Whats even worse is the DTV sequels have gotten so good in the animation department, that not much distinguishes them from their theatrical counterparts, aside from the superior storytelling of the theatrical features. The marketing team has quite a feat to convince people this is something special and not to wait for the DVDs. So far I think word-of-mouth has been doing a better job of this for The Princess and the Frog then the marketing team.

I feel bad for the Pooh movie, as the DTVs were released in theaters and convincing people the upcoming movie is a REAL feature will be next to impossible. Lets just say Disney has killed their brand and shot themselves in the foot with these DTV sequels.