I Would Like to Know... (Who Here is Gay?)

[Disney Duster]

WOW YOU ALL GOT WHAT I SAID WRONG.

I was saying that every gay guy has "feminine" (it shouldn't be called that) things about them that they just do and can't help unless they really try not to do them!

You all have these little things whether you know it or not.

I wasn't saying a high voice, lisp, or girly movement is done on purpose to attract a guy. I was saying it happens to us naturally without us even knowing it to attract guys, mainly other gay guys!

For instance, lord-of-sith said he only has gay interests. I highly suspected he was gay just from videos of him acting in plays. Very sorry, you just can't help it. Just so you know, Judge Turpin was the most "straight" one, and it was when you were older than the other videos I saw, so you can pull it off. And I think gay guys can just tell sometimes, not everyone in the world, so you're acting's still good. Don't worry. If it does worry you, you can try to work on it to be able to act more differently.

Same with Widdi. While it was obvious from a Snow White shirt, just the way he posed and smiled, the way he acted, in a photo I saw, made me think he was gay.

Just ask your friends if you butt "toggles" or does extra movement when you walk. It's related to sexing it up for gay guys to take interest. And it shouldn't be thought of as a "girly" thing, just a "male attraction" thing.

God, poor me and Tim! We naturally have acted what many call "girly" since we were little and didn't even know we wanted to attract guys. Geeze! And you know, maybe we do it more than others, but you've all got it.

Higher levels of estrogen. Biology. Didn't anyone read any of that?

[jeremy88]

not really because my ex was completely gay and he wasn't "feminine" or had "feminine" qaulities at all. We musn't generalize every gay man on the planet.

And I myself never said you guys were girly. What is girly anyways? Thats simply just a word to describe something..for example whats girly to you woulnd't be girly to me...I don't think wearing a snow white shirt is girly or "feminine" or to say that it made someone gay. For myself, everything is instead personality and only that, not typically feminine or masculine...I mean I guess you could put yourselves into catagories like that, but I would never say that about anyone

and what about metro-sexual males? Their completely straight and have feminine qaulities and it doesn't make them gay.

Instead of the word feminine how about we use the word flamboyant?? I think thats where were trying to get at...

Well anyways, to put a close to my little rant. Lets put it this way, Chernabog and I are naturally not 'girly' or 'feminine'(I dont like using those words) so it would be out of our comfort zone to be that way, its just how we are. It's the same for you and Tim, you both are naturally like that, so it would be uncomfortable or out of your zone to act as something you are not right? Theres nothing wrong with it...every individual is just different...no offense was intended honest.

[Disney's Divinity]

WOW YOU ALL GOT WHAT I SAID WRONG.

What a surprise...

I wasn't saying a high voice, lisp, or girly movement is done on purpose to attract a guy. I was saying it happens to us naturally without us even knowing it to attract guys, mainly other gay guys!

I don't know if this is directed to me or not, but I was specifically referring to things people do purposefully. Not because they would be inclined to do them normally, but because there's an audience to act for (whether it's a gay one or a straight one, an act's still an act).

God, poor me and Tim! We naturally have acted what many call "girly" since we were little and didn't even know we wanted to attract guys. Geeze! And you know, maybe we do it more than others, but you've all got it.

Or, you know, perhaps some people attract others through their personality and not simply through their body? Wow. And how nice of you to decide what everyone must do to appeal to or be appealed by others. Thanks for clearing that up. I was completely confused.

Jeremy, I think you're right that "flamboyant" is a better word choice. "Girly" is simply what first came to mind, but even that is based on the stereotypical woman rather than a real one.

[PrincePhillipFan]

Tim you made me feel bad. But no like I said before everyones different, theres totally nothing wrong with it. Everyone just has a different natural personality thats all.

Please don't feel bad. I wasn't directing it directly at you or anyone else here in the thread.

With the topic of discussion it just reminded me of an incident that happened not too long ago. Pesonally, I myself don't like generalizing as well, and I completely understand how many people would want to stray away from the standard stereotype. However, I bumped into a friend of a friend who was gay as well, but a very militant one. Because I walked and acted in a rather flamboyant way, and had many "gay interests," he accused me of furthering the stereotype and told me I should be ashamed. It just really deeply affected me because I had only been acting the way that I normally always have. I guess just this discussion in this thread had brought up that feeling again. I know everyone else here didn't mean it intentionally and I don't place any blame on them. I understand others being tired of the stereotype (especially of those who do it for attention and to get others to notice them), but at the same time, it made me feel rather embarrassed because of just being myself naturally.

[Escapay]

I've strayed away from this topic for the past several pages because I felt there was nothing else I could say, at least not relevant to the discussion at hand. But regarding the whole "lisp" thing, I just had to chime in because having a lisp certainly doesn't mean someone is gay.

I live in a bilingual household, as my parents speak English and Tagalog, and I can understand basic Tagalog but I'm not fluent in it and don't speak it. As a little kid, my siblings and I picked up a sort of hybrid accent that would sway from South Jersey to Filipino, and because of it, we had several different speech habits, some which we all shared (for awhile none of us could do "th", so three was tree and the was duh), and some of which were unique to ourselves. In my case, it was interdental lisping, where my tongue would get stuck, or thtuck between my front teeth, resulting in "th" instead of "s" for most words. There's actually some home movies where it's very noticeable (in one of them I say "I'm turning thikss" for "I'm turning six"), and a bit funny to watch now. But anyway, having a lisp wasn't odd for me, because I wasn't conscious of it as that's the way I grew up talking. However, by second grade, it was decided that I'd have to get rid of it and so I took speech classes (with Mrs. Ziegler, so you can imagine the hell I had to put up with saying her name properly) all through elementary school, and eventually the lisp went away.

However, even though the classes stopped, living in a bilingual household didn't. So within a year or two, the lisp came back, but it was much more subtle because I was both consciously aware of it and because I had previously taken classes that would prevent it. Throughout middle and high school, I was able to phase out the lisp and it's pretty much gone by now, even though I'll occasionally slip (or thlip) on a word. But those instances are few and far between because of a lot of factors beyond consciously controlling it.

I've lived away from home for variable stretches of time (September 2003 to May 2004, January to August 2005, May to August 2006, and in a sense, late March to April 2008 could count as I seemed to just use home for my bed and shower rather than "live" there.), so I've been able to hear a great many different types of speech and accents (beyond South Jersey and Tagalog). Sometimes I'd subconsciously assimilate it (seriously, some days I'd have a Southern twang in 2006 because two castmembers I frequently hung out with were from Louisiana and North Carolina), but most of the time, it helped me to "isolate" my own accent so that I wouldn't slip into another accent.

In short, lisping is first and foremost a speech impediment, not some orientation indicator. So for me, sitting here reading a theory that having a lisp automatically means someone's gay, all I can say is "bullshit". True, there will be people who'll consciously lisp in order to fit a stereotype, but for the rest of the world, a lisp is just an annoying speech habit that takes time to control. Barbara Walters made a career out of her lisp and she ain't a lesbian.

Albert

[jeremy88]

Thats true actually, some people also have lisps because of they way their teeth and mouthes are shaped...but Barbara Walters has a lisp? I never noticed.

[Vermin Friends]

Hey people. So as a few of you guys know, I'm 16, and I'm gay.

Some significant history:
1) knew I was gay since before the first grade (1997 approx.)
2) told a friend I liked her in 7th grade (2004) to cover it up, but never went out
3) go to a traditional Christian church, and have been since before I was born (1992)
4) became depressed in 7th grade (2004)
5) became anti-social and suicidal (or at least had thoughts of suicide) in 8th grade (2006)
6) never came out before, except here at the UD forums (2008)
7) have a mother, a father, an older sister and a dog (since 2007)

*no one knows about #4 or #5

On our way to church on Sunday with my mom (my dad doesn't go to church, and my sister had to pack for her dorm) I had to write the date and, upon realizing that TLM3 would be released in two days, I let out a small squeal. My mom harshly made fun of me, which caused me to cry a little (the one time this year that I've almost been pulled out of my depression, and I get mocked for it- never said it, though). My crying made my mom mad (since I'm the youngest, and the crybaby of the entire family- all the relatives, everyone), and she yelled at me...

I've never even mentioned TLM3 to my family since, and have again, fallen into depression. So for the past two days, a friend (who moved to California ) kept asking why I was feeling so sad.

Here's our conversation (she'll be purple, I'll be green)

in case you haven't noticed, i've been depressed for almost four years- anti-social and suicidal for three, and the one time this year where i've actually been excited for something, my parent's won't let me. when we were driving to church on sunday, we i had to write the date and realizing TLM3 would be released in just two more days, I let out a little squeal- my mom mocked me. i started crying, and she yelled at me. since then, i've been wanting to tell her what i've just told you.

i'm not allowed to buy it unless my grades get up, but my grades won't go up until i'm at least a little happy, and i won't be a little happy until i watch TLM3. how is this fair? i've been working my ass off since school started and i haven't gotten a single compliment from either of my parents, causing me to sink lower, and lower into depression. i am so sick of this. i just want it to end.

suicidal...

[Vermin Friends], this is silly. You can't beat yourself up over this. I know you've been excited about TLM3 for a LOOONG time, but I can't help but see both sides on this one. It's only been a month since you've been in school. And you say your grades are already dropping? I see where your parents are coming from, and I think I'm going to have to side with them on this one. I'm sorry, but you know me more than ANYBODY else, so tell me how silly it is to "kill yourself" over something you can't have right NOW.

["b" word]. you can't see both sides on this one because you don't know both sides on this one. no, i'm not suicidal because i can't watch TLM3, there's a whole other secret that isn't going to come out, ever. so don't you dare tell me that what i'm feeling is silly. this is way beyond TLM3.

i can't believe i would trust you with something i've never told anyone else before, and you end up throwing it back into my face. thank you so much, [friend] (sarcasm, in case you couldn't tell).

HEY! ALL you told me was that you were upset about TLM3. that's ALL that you said in your previous email. I tried to back that up, but then you're yelling at me that it's NOT about TLM, but about something your NOT gonna tell me anyway? how the hell is that fair to me, when I'm trying to HELP YOU?

i can't be depressed and suicidal about a movie i haven't even heard of at the time.

i'm not depressed because i can't watch TLM3. i said that i've been depressed, and the one time i've been happy this year, i've been kicked in the face by my family, forcing me back into the depression.

i was actually going to tell you the reason for my depression in the first place, except you had to go on and say that i was stupid for feeling the way i feel.

i didn't say that you were stupid. you just weren't very specific. i didn't know what to help you with. I assumed that it was the movie, since it was all that you talked about. after a while of waiting i figured it was your family, but you never mentioned that it was the main problem. i'm just so confused. i didn't want you to get mad at me and say the wrong thing. which is pretty much what always happens when we fight like this... i'm sorry for not getting it.

i'm gay.

omg...what? how?

Fear and blame, exactly what I was scared of. Luckily, I chose a friend that moved to California, and I can generally trust her to be able to keep it a secret. I also chose to tell her first because I wouldn't have to deal with a possibility of rejection, we could just simply stop talking.

I've left the last message unanswered for more than an hour, I knew that coming out would be a mistake. For anyone who actually read this... what should I do?

[Chernabog_Rocks]

I was saying that every gay guy has "feminine" (it shouldn't be called that) things about them that they just do and can't help unless they really try not to do them!

You all have these little things whether you know it or not.


Just ask your friends if you butt "toggles" or does extra movement when you walk. It's related to sexing it up for gay guys to take interest.

God, poor me and Tim! We naturally have acted what many call "girly" since we were little and didn't even know we wanted to attract guys. Geeze! And you know, maybe we do it more than others, but you've all got it.

I'll address the bottom paragraph first, I think you missed the part where I said "more power to you", if it's natural for you and your comfortable doing it naturally then more power to you because it shows your comfortable with aspects of who you are.

Now working my way up, I don't think I'd ever ask my friend to watch my butt to see if it toggles, I can see the conversation going like this:

Me: Can you watch my butt to see if it toggles?

Friend: You want me to to what now...

Me: Well I'll walk and you tell me if it's sending out any extra movements that might sex up another guys interest in me

Friend: .......how about no?

Honestly I know how I walk, very clumsily if there was any butt toggling going on I'd probably have a hard time walking straight and fall down a lot more

Now for the top paragraph and the one line below it:

As I've said I don't have any flamboyant traits about me nor will I ever, for three reasons.

1) I just don't do it naturally, nor have I ever so if I did have any I'd have to do it purposely which I won't because...

2) It's outside my comfort zone, I won't do anything unless I'm comfortable doing it.

and 3) My familys not very...supportive so if I ever did gain these traits or pick them up I'd squash them to hide them so the family doesn't pick up on them it would be a risk doing it purposefully or naturally.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong acting flamboyantly or being naturally flamboyant.

[Chernabog_Rocks]

What you could do is just talk to her, yes it will be awkward unless she's 100% open about it and supportive. I think you just need to open up a bit, explain to her that you've known for a while that your scared of being rejected by her etc. If she's a good friend she'll talk with you about it and if she asks questions answer the ones you feel comfortable answering.

Hope that helps

[Vermin Friends]

What you could do is just talk to her, yes it will be awkward unless she's 100% open about it and supportive. I think you just need to open up a bit, explain to her that you've known for a while that your scared of being rejected by her etc. If she's a good friend she'll talk with you about it and if she asks questions answer the ones you feel comfortable answering.

Hope that helps

It does and thank you so much for taking the time to read that novel. We'll see how it goes...

[Chernabog_Rocks]

Good Luck Vermin Friends hopefully it will go well

[Vermin Friends]

Good Luck Vermin Friends hopefully it will go well

Well, I guess it did, although I doubt that I'll get the same reaction from anyone else.

It turns out that she was stunned because she fell for me. Even though the majority of our friendship had been through the internet, we really got to know each other. I had always figured since she left TINY hints around here and here, but I just shrugged it off as me being conceited.

So thanks so much for helping me through my first outing, Chernabog_Rocks. I know we haven't seen eye-to-eye lately, but IMO- real life is so much more important than arguing over what we were.

I feel like a five pound weight has been lifted off my back. Now, what about the other 195?

[James]

that unattractive soccer player everyone seems to like

AH! Blasphemy! ;P David Beckham is my god, and everyone shall bow to him! Haha, hes hot, and if you cant see that, you're weird haha. Kidding.

Okay just kinda chimed back into this thread after reading a few pages, and guys lets stop the fighting. There wil ALWAYS be debate over gays. Always. It may get better for gays, but str8 guys, and guys that dont like femmy gays will always have some homophobia in them. It's human nature to not like what ur not used to, so let's get used to it.
In short, we're all gonna die, and we're all gonna live short lives, and chatting with people we dont even know on some forum isnt gonna solve anything. Everyone here seems smart enough to realise what's right, and we dont need to keep fighting to change person's opinions.
Everyone is beautiful, let's just remember that.

[universALLove]

^ Very nicely put

[Disney's Divinity]

My mom harshly made fun of me, which caused me to cry a little (the one time this year that I've almost been pulled out of my depression, and I get mocked for it- never said it, though). My crying made my mom mad (since I'm the youngest, and the crybaby of the entire family- all the relatives, everyone), and she yelled at me...

That's horrible. It's one thing to poke fun at somebody for a peculiar interest (to them), but it's another to make them feel bad about it. I'm not trying to give you any advice, but I've learned to deal with this in my own way. When my parents comment on something, yes, I do give them an earful. And I really don't care if outside observers call me "bratty" (for some reason it's different to "talk back" to your parents than it is anyone else), but I'm not going to let anyone, my family included, make me feel ashamed of something that I don't consider shameful. I'm completely willing to be thrown out for defending myself if I have to, but I don't feel wrong in any sense of the word.

I can sympathize with your situation, as I cry over things easily. I think the difference is that I've hardened. I fight back and cry later.

As for coming out, I can't really help you as I haven't told anyone either. I've promised myself that if someone asked me, I'd say so, but I'm not going to bring it up first. Hope all goes well, though.

In short, lisping is first and foremost a speech impediment, not some orientation indicator. So for me, sitting here reading a theory that having a lisp automatically means someone's gay, all I can say is "bullshit". True, there will be people who'll consciously lisp in order to fit a stereotype, but for the rest of the world, a lisp is just an annoying speech habit that takes time to control. Barbara Walters made a career out of her lisp and she ain't a lesbian.

I can only assume you're talking to me (though it's possible you're not) and all I can say is that I'm sorry if you thought I was saying everyone who has a lisp is gay. But I won't apologize for or "take back" what I wrote just because you misread.

[Disney Duster]

I don't think wearing a snow white shirt is girly or "feminine" or to say that it made someone gay.

Well, I hope you noticed I said it wasn't just the shirt, it was the posing...

It wasn an example of how even when you think you don't do anything "gay", you do. You all do.

But you know, I think you're right in the word "flamboyant' could work instead of "girly" or "feminine"...for now. I've tried it.

Or, you know, perhaps some people attract others through their personality and not simply through their body? Wow. And how nice of you to decide what everyone must do to appeal to or be appealed by others. Thanks for clearing that up. I was completely confused.

No, you didn't understand. I was saying our bodies naturally do these things that help get guys' attention, notice us, like us, be attracted to us, that we aren't aware of or maybe even can't help. And yes, it's using our biological bodies.

Aw, Tim! That guy was being an ass! Make that a dumbass. Talk about ignoring information that proved him wrong. And yes, I usually don't call people bad names but hey, you're my friend.

In short, lisping is first and foremost a speech impediment, not some orientation indicator. So for me, sitting here reading a theory that having a lisp automatically means someone's gay, all I can say is "bullshit". True, there will be people who'll consciously lisp in order to fit a stereotype, but for the rest of the world, a lisp is just an annoying speech habit that takes time to control.

Once again not getting what I meant. I was saying a lisp does indicate it, but not that everyone who has it has some gayness in them! Anyway, why were you, the bisexual (oh sorry pansexual) one in the family the one to get the lisp when no one else did?

And I've been wanting to say this for a while on your pansexuality theory. It's wrong. People are born gay or straight or bisexual. Gay men have things in them that attract them to men, not to women. They only react to the smell of men, etc. There's lots of other bilological things like that that we can't control. You're whole pansexuality theory completely goes against how so many gay people say their sexuality is not a choice. And with your theory, people against homosexuality will keep having reasons to tell us we don't need to be gay, because, you know, we can just choose to love the opposite sex!

Okay, now to Chernabog. You're a real trooper for talking to me. I didn't miss that you said "more power" to the ones who really do act gay when they're gay...yea. I'm saying everyone who's gay acts gay, they just don't think they do.

Widdi and lord-of-sith were examples of guys who thought they only had gay interests, but I could tell they were gay from how they acted and sounded, when they didn't think anyone could.

I guess not all your friends would watch to see if you do anything "gay", and they probably wouldn't know what to look for and if it's gay or not, anyway. But if you have a gay friend who might know, maybe you could ask.

I do wonder if maybe by living in a homophobic family, they suppressed anything outwardly gay you might have developed had you been in a family that had no problem with seeing anything that looks remotely "gay". Or, like I said, you don't notice the little gay things you do. But I'm certainly open to the idea that I couldn't tell if you were gay if I saw you.

Vermine Friends...what your friend said was horrible, saying your parents could still be harsh on you, etc. Your parents have no excuse, you're depressed and you're grades are dropping and TLM3 was the only thing going to make you happy and you're parents are just plain bad for not noticing (unless you're hiding it) and being like that to you. In my middle school, TLM2 and Cinderella2 helped me through possibly the most depressing time if my life! So are you in 9th grade now? And you know, TLM3 means so much to you that it would be okay if that was the only thing getting you depressed, not to have it. Because it makes you so happy. So your parents and your friend should be ashamed for telling you you don't need it or you shouldn't get upset over it. Yes, there are more important things in life like friends, yadda yadda yadda, but right now it may be the most important happy thing you have, right? You don't deserve any of the crap you're getting and I hope you get happy soon.

[carolinakid]

Disney Duster,
As I read your last post (and I think everyone's made some good points) all I could think of was that line in that classic song...I'd like to address this meeting of the Harper Valley PTA! :lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn4-2qMErgM
jon

[Escapay]

I can only assume you're talking to me (though it's possible you're not) and all I can say is that I'm sorry if you thought I was saying everyone who has a lisp is gay. But I won't apologize for or "take back" what I wrote just because you misread.

No need to be sorry, I wasn't talking to anybody in particular. Just the general "idea" that seems to have come from the past several posts that a lisp is a gay thing when it's really a speech thing. I wasn't singling out anyone, just the idea. Most of the posts had come across (to me) as not realizing that the lisp is a speech impediment, and only believing it was just another character trait of gay guys. I was merely correcting that idea with a personal story, which I don't think some people read properly, so I'll have to re-explain.

For most cases with children in bilingual households, they'll either have the ability to adapt to both languages and accents, or they'll end up with a "hybrid" of the two. In my family's cases, I ended up with a hybrid that eventually adapted to South Jersey (though now I speak with Standard American). But because I was still around Tagalog (a Filipino language that is partly influenced by Spanish - and there are several dialects of Spanish where the lisp is a natural occurrence in speech), I acquired a lisp. Why I did and my siblings didn't does not matter. Every person's language/speech is unique. Just because it was the same environment for the three of us doesn't mean we'd all get the same results. They got braces because of their teeth, I didn't. I got a lisp because of my tongue and teeth, they didn't. So I don't see how it should have been a factor in any question of orientation. That's a moot point that has nothing to do with speech impediments or disorders.

Anyway, all I wanted to do was share a lisp story to show that not all lispers are gay, so (hopefully) this is my last post in this thread.

Albert

[lord-of-sith]

Widdi and lord-of-sith were examples of guys who thought they only had gay interests, but I could tell they were gay from how they acted and sounded, when they didn't think anyone could.

I don't recall ever stating that I didn't think anyone could tell by the way I acted, it could have been glaringly obvious for all I know! I was just stating that my interests and activities were very stereotypical of a less-than-straight guy.

[Widdi]

Same with Widdi. While it was obvious from a Snow White shirt, just the way he posed and smiled, the way he acted, in a photo I saw, made me think he was gay.

Umm, You have me mistaken for someone else.

I have never in my life worn a Snow White shirt (I would never advertise for that shrill ear-killer) and to the best of my knowledge the only picture of me ever posted on this site is from the shoulders up and I wasn't posing for it.

That isn't to say there has never been a picture of me taken in a deliberately "gay pose", cause that would just not be true, but I highly doubt you have ever seen one.

Widdi and lord-of-sith were examples of guys who thought they only had gay interests, but I could tell they were gay from how they acted and sounded, when they didn't think anyone could.

Hold up, I have never claimed that it is impossible to tell I am gay from the way I act. I have, however, stated that the vast majority of people who personally know me outside the Internet were genuinely shocked when I came out of the closet because I don't project an overtly gay aura.

I have also stated that it is possible to tell if gay without seeing me with another guy. Just walk into my bedroom and all doubts about my sexual orientation should be erased. But I am by no means a, how do people put it, "Flamer".

And on the matter of all gay men acting gay. Well duh! Gay men have sex with other (for the most part) gay men. It doesn't get much gayer than that! But not every gay man is Jack McFarland or the blond dude from "Queer Eye". That would be like saying all straight men are Hulk Hogan or Tim "the tool-man" Taylor.