Let's face it, Disney lost its magic. How to come back...

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Post by Timon/Pumbaa fan »

2099net wrote:
Well, I disagree. Let's pop over to RottenTomatoes.Com and see what all the critics said about Finding Nemo.

I could go on, I only selected the relevant quotes from the first page. Only a few of the review quotes actually mention the story. Most of those that do place it second to the visuals. Like it or not, the visuals of Finding Nemo are a huge crowd puller. While the story may be praised, it is undoubtably the visuals that act as the initial hook.

Now, lets see what the critics say about Home on the Range on the same site.


While there's not as many comments on the animation, while all Finding Nemo's comments about animation were positive, all of the comments about Home on the Range's visuals seem to be negative. On the whole, the critics just don't seem to think the visuals are important enough to even mention most of the time. :roll:

It's all very well saying the story is all that's important, but that's obviously wrong. The story will give a popular film legs as it will perhaps result in more repeat viewings and a bigger "word of mouth" audience. No one can deny that a story is important.

But people don't decide on which film to see at the opening weekend because of the story. Nobody knows the story before the film opens. You could have a film with one of the best stories ever written, but if nobody goes to the opening weekend, the film is a flop. As has already been mentioned, just see what happened to The Iron Giant.

And don't say critics reviews influence the opening weekend box office takings that much. There's lots of films critics have universally panned (Scooby Doo, Van Helsing etc) which have all had more than respectable opening weekends.

Initial appeal is a mixture of visuals, how likable the characters appear to be from previews, and... perhaps most importantly these days hype (sadly).

Like it or not, CGI films have more box office clout than the traditional handdrawn animated films. People just prefer the look of CGI. My own theory is because television offers handdrawn animation constantly, but CGI is still 'new' and therefore relatively rare.

I do find it doubtful that Nemo would have done half its business had it been handdrawn. Certainly, the story, which is nothing more than reworked set-pieces from Pixar's own Toy Story and Monsters, Inc films is just as formulaic as Disney's post Lion King films are accused of being.
Little Red Henski wrote:The Hollywood studios are going to flood the market with their 3D cgi films. When that happens people will stop going to see them because people will be tired of them. Disney has to accept some blame for the death of 2D. Disney flooded the market with their 2D cheapquels. Now Disney is planning to do 3D cheapquels of Pixar films.
I disagree LRH. I used to think this, becuase it's always easier to blame someone or something. But I think the evidence just doesn't add up. The fact that the 2D "cheapquels" sales are still on an upward trend shows that people still want them. More than ever.

It's easy to blame the cheapquels, but what did more to damage Disney's reputation? A single Little Mermaid II DTV which most people didn't even buy, or a syndicated weekly or daily "Adventures of the Little Mermaid" TV series?

I place the blame on television. Television has made cartoons readily available to almost everyone. Gone are the days of limited animation Yogi Bear and Huckleberry Hound. Gone of the days of when Saturday Morning was the only time to see lots of cartoons. We now have 24 hour dedicated cartoon channels. We even have successful prime-time animated sit-coms. And as a result, cartoons aren't special any more. When earlier Disney features were released cartoons were still seen as a treat. Now they're seen as a fixture and nothing more in the eyes of most people.

Television stopped the cartoon shorts from being profitable (and even the mighty Walt himself had to acknowledge this) and now television is making cartoon films become less profitable. CGI is currently riding a wave of popularity at the cinemas, but this too will loose popularity when CGI becomes more common on our televisions.
BRAVO NETTY!!!

MovieMusicals.net should read this! He lists some of the points I was trying to point out!

And why are people saying the Hunchback was a hit! It barely made over 100 million dollars. I would consider that a flop!
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Post by Prince Eric »

I think there's too much confusion on this thread because everyone wants to put in their two cents based on opinions.....Now, let's analyze everything from a logistical standpoint... :roll:

1.) A lot of people here are saying that they don't judge a movie's success based on box-office. Oh, well, I guess those people are a little slow. Yes, it could be a GREAT movie, but if the money isn't coming in, then it's not a success, is it? (At least from a financial stand-point.)
Examples:
A.) The Emperor's New Groove - This movie didn't break even until 2003, three years after it was released in theaters. Sure, now it can be technically considered a success, but look how long it took! A 120 million+ film grossing 89 million dollars, excluding marketing is a pretty big hit to the studio.
B.) Treasure Planet - Wonderful animation, yada-yada-yada. 140 million dollars spent on a film that barely covered its marketing. Yes guys, this was a huge success!

2.) People act like every CGI is a huge blockbuster. Wrong. Considering the budget and marketing of these films, a 100 million dollars take is hardly profitable. Really, the only huge blockbusters are from Disney/Pixar and the Shrek franchise. People are way off in dismissing the Pixar films as just nice flashy productions. Reviewers have said this repeatedly: the stories are what make these films timeless. Yes, the have super-great (now I'm making up words) animation, but the story comes first and the audience realizes that. Why did Home on the Range tank? OK, nice animation, but it sucked story wise! They couldn't even decide weather or not to make it a full-blown Alan Menken musical. Has everybody forgotten how plagued this picture was with story problems durin production...Hmph!...If you like the movie, that's fine, but it's by no means an artistic success.

3.) Critics may not effect opening weekend, but they effect longevity. Van Helsing had a 55% drop-off rate the following weekend. So in effect, a bad post-first week run negates the numbers of the huge box-office opening.

Timon/Pumba fan's little opinion about Finding Nemo over Brother Bear is in the minority. I'm not saying it should be disgarded, my friend, but you shouldn't use your opinion as a FACT to combat the obvious. If people loved Brother Bear (a modest hit), it would have benefited from very strong word-of-mouth. It didn't. Finding Nemo did. Boo-hoo. Whatever.

As regards to the musicals, I don't think every film should have to be a musical (Studio Ghibli is a testament to that), but what have been Disney's strength? Animated musicals based on fairy tales. Come on people, you can't DENY that! They have Deviated from The Forumla for seven years already, time to give it a shot again. Logic, people, logic...
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Post by PatrickvD »

MovieMusicals.net wrote:Menken wrote ONE song for HOME ON THE RANGE
Little Patch of Heaven, Home on the Range, Yodel-adle-eedle-adle-loo, Will the Sun Ever Shine Again?, Wherever the Trail May Lead, Anytime You Need A Friend...... Seriously, did you actually SEE the movie. I hope you mean that there was only one of those songs in wich the characters are actually singing, because Menken wrote a LOT of stuff for this film, there's a lot of music wich didn't even make the final cut.

And yes, I do hope they bring him back, because even his lesser work like Home was sweet and enjoyable. Listening to the Home on the Range soundtrack is like walking through Disneyland. Menken knows, more than anyone what Disney is supposed to sounds like.
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Post by Timon/Pumbaa fan »

Prince Eric wrote: 1.) A lot of people here are saying that they don't judge a movie's success based on box-office. Oh, well, I guess those people are a little slow. Yes, it could be a GREAT movie, but if the money isn't coming in, then it's not a success, is it? (At least from a financial stand-point.)
Examples:
A.) The Emperor's New Groove - This movie didn't break even until 2003, three years after it was released in theaters. Sure, now it can be technically considered a success, but look how long it took! A 120 million+ film grossing 89 million dollars, excluding marketing is a pretty big hit to the studio.
B.) Treasure Planet - Wonderful animation, yada-yada-yada. 140 million dollars spent on a film that barely covered its marketing. Yes guys, this was a huge success!

2.) People act like every CGI is a huge blockbuster. Wrong. Considering the budget and marketing of these films, a 100 million dollars take is hardly profitable. Really, the only huge blockbusters are from Disney/Pixar and the Shrek franchise. People are way off in dismissing the Pixar films as just nice flashy productions. Reviewers have said this repeatedly: the stories are what make these films timeless. Yes, the have super-great (now I'm making up words) animation, but the story comes first and the audience realizes that. Why did Home on the Range tank? OK, nice animation, but it sucked story wise! They couldn't even decide weather or not to make it a full-blown Alan Menken musical. Has everybody forgotten how plagued this picture was with story problems durin production...Hmph!...If you like the movie, that's fine, but it's by no means an artistic success.

3.) Critics may not effect opening weekend, but they effect longevity. Van Helsing had a 55% drop-off rate the following weekend. So in effect, a bad post-first week run negates the numbers of the huge box-office opening.
1. Yes that's true for alot of movies, but some films are considered "classics" but were flops. Even alot of the Best Picture winners are usually flops! I mean look at Million Dollar Baby, not only wasn't it a blockbuster, but it didn't even do somewhat well like the Aviator or Finding Neverland. That's why when Chris Rock went to ask people at the theaters, they all love White Chicks but didn't see any of the "great" films. So someday I think Million Dollar Baby will be remembered just because it won Best Picture, who will remember White Chicks? So box office scores don't determine everything.

2. Well the only CGI flop I can think of is Ants because it didn't even make past 100 million, but all the others I can think of did really well. Even Robots which didn't do extrodanary made over 120 millon dollars which is actually a success. But that's really all I have to complaint about that statement. I mean look at SharkTale, did great at the box office, did horrible when it came to the critics and even what the audience thought. So I think some day like next year that films will be forgotten.

3. Well look at Sharktale. Approxemently 159 million dollars is no flop but it got AWFUL reviews. I mean alot of films did succesful but got poor reviews. Look at the first two Star Wars prequels(as I hate to admit it, the critics hated it) and even the original Star Wars films, many critics today say the original trilogy is a masterpiece, yet before it was released people HATED it! So I really don't think the critics have anything to do with a succesful movie. I mean alot of the people I've talked to said, "I could care less what a critic thinks, I just go to a movie and like it!"
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Post by Sunset Girl »

Prince Eric wrote:1.) A lot of people here are saying that they don't judge a movie's success based on box-office. Oh, well, I guess those people are a little slow. Yes, it could be a GREAT movie, but if the money isn't coming in, then it's not a success, is it? (At least from a financial stand-point.)
So can I safely assume then that Fantasia and Bambi were not successful?

Their high quality won out in the end due to re-releases.
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Post by Kenai »

Timon/Pumba fan wrote:
Prince Eric wrote: 1.) A lot of people here are saying that they don't judge a movie's success based on box-office. Oh, well, I guess those people are a little slow. Yes, it could be a GREAT movie, but if the money isn't coming in, then it's not a success, is it? (At least from a financial stand-point.)
Examples:
A.) The Emperor's New Groove - This movie didn't break even until 2003, three years after it was released in theaters. Sure, now it can be technically considered a success, but look how long it took! A 120 million+ film grossing 89 million dollars, excluding marketing is a pretty big hit to the studio.
B.) Treasure Planet - Wonderful animation, yada-yada-yada. 140 million dollars spent on a film that barely covered its marketing. Yes guys, this was a huge success!

2.) People act like every CGI is a huge blockbuster. Wrong. Considering the budget and marketing of these films, a 100 million dollars take is hardly profitable. Really, the only huge blockbusters are from Disney/Pixar and the Shrek franchise. People are way off in dismissing the Pixar films as just nice flashy productions. Reviewers have said this repeatedly: the stories are what make these films timeless. Yes, the have super-great (now I'm making up words) animation, but the story comes first and the audience realizes that. Why did Home on the Range tank? OK, nice animation, but it sucked story wise! They couldn't even decide weather or not to make it a full-blown Alan Menken musical. Has everybody forgotten how plagued this picture was with story problems durin production...Hmph!...If you like the movie, that's fine, but it's by no means an artistic success.

3.) Critics may not effect opening weekend, but they effect longevity. Van Helsing had a 55% drop-off rate the following weekend. So in effect, a bad post-first week run negates the numbers of the huge box-office opening.
1. Yes that's true for alot of movies, but some films are considered "classics" but were flops. Even alot of the Best Picture winners are usually flops! I mean look at Million Dollar Baby, not only wasn't it a blockbuster, but it didn't even do somewhat well like the Aviator or Finding Neverland. That's why when Chris Rock went to ask people at the theaters, they all love White Chicks but didn't see any of the "great" films. So someday I think Million Dollar Baby will be remembered just because it won Best Picture, who will remember White Chicks? So box office scores don't determine everything.

2. Well the only CGI flop I can think of is Ants because it didn't even make past 100 million, but all the others I can think of did really well. Even Robots which didn't do extrodanary made over 120 millon dollars which is actually a success. But that's really all I have to complaint about that statement. I mean look at SharkTale, did great at the box office, did horrible when it came to the critics and even what the audience thought. So I think some day like next year that films will be forgotten.

3. Well look at Sharktale. Approxemently 159 million dollars is no flop but it got AWFUL reviews. I mean alot of films did succesful but got poor reviews. Look at the first two Star Wars prequels(as I hate to admit it, the critics hated it) and even the original Star Wars films, many critics today say the original trilogy is a masterpiece, yet before it was released people HATED it! So I really don't think the critics have anything to do with a succesful movie. I mean alot of the people I've talked to said, "I could care less what a critic thinks, I just go to a movie and like it!"
Exactly! All good points indeed. Box office doesn't always never determine what's a classic at all. Look at Braveheart as well. That's considered one of the greats and that movie never crossed 100 million domestically. Apparently, though, everyone consideres box office to be the most important. It's all about the money.

I'm so tired of hearing about the box office grosses already.
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Post by Disney's Divinity »

Yes, box office grosses have nothing to do with "classic," but it does have a lot to do with a company staying alive long enough to make more "classics." And, if Brother Bear and Treasure Planet can be considered classic, Disney'll be driving themselves into the ground to make us more of them. :)
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Post by Pasta67 »

Movies don't have to be financially successful to be good. Movies don't have to be good to be financially successful. I wish people would just forget about how much money a movie makes when forming an opinion of it.

Having just said that money shouldn't matter, how much exactly did Treasure Planet make:
1) In the U.S.
and
2) Worldwide?

I've been looking and I've never found out.
Last edited by Pasta67 on Sun Jun 26, 2005 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Timon/Pumbaa fan »

Pasta67 wrote:Movies don't have to be financially successful to be good. Movies don't have to be good to be financially successful. I just wish people would just forget about how much money a movie makes when forming an opinion of it.

Having just said that money shouldn't matter, how much exactly did Treasure Planet make:
1) In the U.S.
and
2) Worldwide?

I've been looking and I've never found out.
Everything can be found here: http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id ... planet.htm
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Post by dgfan2112 »

Many people knew that movies were in the box office at the time of grossing.
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Post by Pasta67 »

Timon/Pumba fan wrote:Everything can be found here: http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id ... planet.htm
Holy criz-ap, that sucks. Proof right there that movies do not have to be financially successful to be good.
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Post by calvin101 »

I would never judge any film as being a "classic" simply because of how well it does in the box office...are there actually any Disney films left in the top 10? The last one I saw had 'The Lion King' in the top 10 but doesn't seem to contain LOTR's or Harry Potter or Shrek.

Anyway regardless, the way I judge a film to be a 'classic' is that you don't need to see it to know something about it. One of those things where people pick up bits of information from the press or friends/family so that you recognise characters, perhaps without even knowing their name. I think films like The Lion King are like that...they extend beyond the usual limits of a simple film/DVD. I personally don't think Disney has done that for a good 5 or 6 years, besides the Pixar stuff but then, you can't have every film anyway.
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Post by Prince Eric »

Was I ever disputing the status of "classics." The fact that the aforementioned pieces are not part of the offical animated cannon doesn't change the fact that they were initially financial failures. Besides, we're talking about the current state of affairs. CURRENTLY, Disney has released a string of failures, and the timelessness has yet to be seen.

People who don't think critics have box-office weight are seriously dillusional. I'm sure Shark Tale could have doubled its gross if it got the type of reviews Finding Nemo did. Do the math people, the better the reviews, the higher the gross. The top tier animated films are Pixar and the Shrek Franchise, and they are the highest grossing. No arguement there. :roll: Oh, and Million Dollar Baby grossed 100 million dollars, due to Oscar buzz and overenthusiastic reviews. (Highly Overrated in my opinion.) Also, it was widely only weeks before it's Best Picture win, so of course it wasn't a hit. The Aviator and Finding Neverland were on par. How do you explain Sideways being a hit besides that fact that every critic in the country gave it a glowing review.
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Post by MovieMusicals.net »

I have only skimmed replies at page 4 and page 5 and I plan on reading and responding to them later.

For now, I'd like to point out something:

I think many of us are not agreeing on certain viewpoints due to poor terminology or understanding of what one means by something.

There is a difference between a GOOD film and a SUCCESSFUL film.
There is a difference between "Disney magic" and a good Disney film.
All subject to opinions, of course.
There is a difference between a Broadway-style Disney musical, and a Disney musical. (The films listed in my original post are all Broadway-style musicals. In addition, Snow White is a Broadway-style musical. Others are debatable as well, such as Pinocchio and Oliver & Company.

I don't know about how successful the Pixar films would be, but if they were all in 2D, they would be GOOD films.

When someone mentions a "flop" - how do you define it? Box office failure? Non-"classic"? General dislike?

When basing MY opinions and thoughts, I do not take into consideration "successfulness" (ie, box office, money, etc.). I consider it being GOOD. To me, Disney hasn't had a GOOD film since Hunchback. That doesn't mean I didn't enjoy the other films. I just think they lacked qualities in being a good film. All subject to opinion of course.

And re: Menken and HOME ON THE RANGE - it was to my understanding that he only wrote "Little Patch of Heaven." "Will the sun ever shine again" was written by a country star, yes? I'll research once more...
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Post by Kram Nebuer »

Timon/Pumba fan wrote:
Prince Eric wrote: 1.) A lot of people here are saying that they don't judge a movie's success based on box-office. Oh, well, I guess those people are a little slow. Yes, it could be a GREAT movie, but if the money isn't coming in, then it's not a success, is it? (At least from a financial stand-point.)

3.) Critics may not effect opening weekend, but they effect longevity. Van Helsing had a 55% drop-off rate the following weekend. So in effect, a bad post-first week run negates the numbers of the huge box-office opening.
1. Yes that's true for alot of movies, but some films are considered "classics" but were flops. Even alot of the Best Picture winners are usually flops! I mean look at Million Dollar Baby, not only wasn't it a blockbuster, but it didn't even do somewhat well like the Aviator or Finding Neverland. That's why when Chris Rock went to ask people at the theaters, they all love White Chicks but didn't see any of the "great" films. So someday I think Million Dollar Baby will be remembered just because it won Best Picture, who will remember White Chicks? So box office scores don't determine everything.

3. Well look at Sharktale. Approxemently 159 million dollars is no flop but it got AWFUL reviews. I mean alot of films did succesful but got poor reviews. Look at the first two Star Wars prequels(as I hate to admit it, the critics hated it) and even the original Star Wars films, many critics today say the original trilogy is a masterpiece, yet before it was released people HATED it! So I really don't think the critics have anything to do with a succesful movie. I mean alot of the people I've talked to said, "I could care less what a critic thinks, I just go to a movie and like it!"
This reminds me of what we learned in Economics class this year. You're right in saying that a movie can be a flop in the beginning and later be thought of as a classic. It's a lot like new and old businesses. THere are two phases that keep going back and forth for businesses: the short run and the long run.

In the short run, a business could be doing great and making profits and competition can be forming or a business could be going bad and may eventually close down. THe long run occurs when no more profits are being made (besides the profits "paid" to the entrepreneur) due to either competition or ppl's tastes have changed. Also the long run occurs when the business has had a chance to expand its size since a lot of ppl like its business and keep it running.

Anyhow, I guess I'm trying to say that movies have a short run and a long run. A movie may initially be unpopular due to critics reviews or ppl just aren't watching them or liking them. But years later, the movie could resurface to popularity with a new generation or the previous generation growing to like the movie or finally seeing the movie. It's like how in 1997ish Grease and the original Star Wars trilogy became so popular all over again. Overall, its all a matter of time and like someone else said, we shouldn't judge our decision on seeing a movie based on how much money it made.
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Post by Timon/Pumbaa fan »

Prince Eric wrote:Was I ever disputing the status of "classics." The fact that the aforementioned pieces are not part of the offical animated cannon doesn't change the fact that they were initially financial failures. Besides, we're talking about the current state of affairs. CURRENTLY, Disney has released a string of failures, and the timelessness has yet to be seen.

People who don't think critics have box-office weight are seriously dillusional. I'm sure Shark Tale could have doubled its gross if it got the type of reviews Finding Nemo did. Do the math people, the better the reviews, the higher the gross. The top tier animated films are Pixar and the Shrek Franchise, and they are the highest grossing. No arguement there. :roll: Oh, and Million Dollar Baby grossed 100 million dollars, due to Oscar buzz and overenthusiastic reviews. (Highly Overrated in my opinion.) Also, it was widely only weeks before it's Best Picture win, so of course it wasn't a hit. The Aviator and Finding Neverland were on par. How do you explain Sideways being a hit besides that fact that every critic in the country gave it a glowing review.
I think you have to give films time. Maybe 20 years latter people will start to look at Brother Bear and Treasure Planet and say, "This film is pretty good, why was is so unpopular". Maybe 50 years later it will be a all time classic like Fantasia or Pinocchio. You just have to wait for fils to become classics!

Well the reason Sharktale didn't gross nearly as much as Nemo is because of several reasons.

1. Nemo opened on late May when alot of kids were on Summer vacation. Sharktale opened on October which is a month I don't think any film was released on and became a smash hit!

2. Finding Nemo was rated G so they could take the whole family to see it. Sharktale was rated PG and after taking kids to see Shrek 2 the parents were probably more carefull with what their kids saw!(The responsible ones anyway!)

3. The trailers didn't look convincing. It just looked like a Finding Nemo rip off with a better cast! I don't even the kids thought it looked good. They probably rather haved stayed home and watch Finding Nemo for the hundreth time!

So there are probably more reasons why a movie flops and a movie is a success then what the critics thought.

Okay I'd like to apologize since I found out that Millon Dolar Baby grossed more than Finding Neverland, but I was so sure Finding Neverland did better since everybody I knew who saw it loved it. I didn't know of anybody who saw Million Dolar Baby.

So even with all the points you bring up, I still don't think the critic's reviews determine everything!
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Post by dgfan2112 »

I still think Finding Nemo is the highest grossing animated film of all time.
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Post by Prince Eric »

Timon/Pumba fan wrote: Okay I'd like to apologize since I found out that Millon Dolar Baby grossed more than Finding Neverland, but I was so sure Finding Neverland did better since everybody I knew who saw it loved it. I didn't know of anybody who saw Million Dolar Baby.
Lesson learned: Just because you and everyone you know love a movie, doesn't mean it's a hit. :roll: Like, duh.

I'm not saying that just because critics approve of a movie, it's going to be a hit. I'm saying that whether or not critics rally behind a picture or pan it, plays a large part of its final box-office gross. Facts support that. If you disagree again, then you're just being argumentative for the sake of arguing. Or would you like to use another example that includes Star Wars?
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Post by Lord Yupa »

There is no easy solution to this problem. It wouldn't take much to say that the once-successful formula of the animated musical is the way to go. However, many would wish Disney to go the way of Miyazaki and his Studio Ghibli, creating profound works of animated cinema geared as much towards adult admirers of Ozu, Ford, and Kurosawa as well as children. I personally feel that it is possible to create truly great works of animation in both directions. Disney lately has acquired a reputation of little variety in their offerings. Yes, I know that their one foray into "darker" animation----The Black Cauldron----was unsuccessfuk. But with the success of Hayao Miyazaki's films, and the presence of many admirers of him at Disney, such as Glen Keane, Hendel Butoy, Kirk Wise, and Tony Bancroft, it seems the right time to incorporate a department solely dedicated to Ghibli-esque storytelling, with a superior animation quality than Ghibli can themselves create with such a low, Japanese-y budget and time constraints (not that their character animaton is poor or mediocre----it's good, but not Disney level). Revive the classic style of the animated Broadway musical, and put much less emphasis on cheap television slideshows and direct-to-video movies, and you have a chance. If CGI is the way to go medium-wise, so be it. I will surely miss the glorious days of ink-and-paint. Of course, the future of Disney animation all depends on the management, the directors, the writers, the producers, and the artists themselves.
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Post by PatrickvD »

Personally, I don't think they should go the storytelling route of Studio Ghibli. These stories may work fine for artsy fartsy cult Japanese anime, but Disney has always done things according to their formula. I think everyone has certain expectations from a Disney film and it will always be compared to Sow White and Beauty and the Beast. As great as Miyazaki may be, his films are unique to him and I'd hate Disney to make these type of films. It's great to see them as an inspiration, like he saw Disney's early work as an inspiration, but going that route is not the best thing for Disney. They need to find their way back into their old formula. Lilo & Stitch is the best example of going back to what it was all about.
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