Tiana . A Disney Princess?

[Goliath]

Well, I don't really agree with you. You might just as well say that the Pooh franchise cheapens the Pooh characters so they're just 'stuffed animals', or Mickey and the Gang, are just 'Mickey's Pals', or Tinkerbell is just a fairy.

I *loathe* all the Pooh and Tinkerbell merchandise! I think they're two of the most over-used Disney characters. I especially hate how Tinkerbell now has her own line of second-rate CGI direct-to-dvd movies aimed at 6 year old girls. Why can't Disney ever let their classic characters stay in their own 'universe', in this instance the film Peter Pan?

They never put a Disney Princess logo on the DVD's and Blu Ray's, so I really don't see as these characters are getting subsumed into a Princess line. They still stand separately as their own creations.

You're not adressing the point I was trying to make. The Princess Line is what robs the characters of their individuality. They're not individuals anymore, but they're members of a cast of Princesses. Which child could tell the difference between Aurora (princess by birth) and Belle (princess by marriage --we assume!), based on the merchandise? Their personalities have become inter-changable.

And what's wrong with putting out Princess themed merchandise anyway. Isn't it a nice idea to have a PVC set out featuring all the Princesses? A Princess calendar? What about the Art of the Disney Princess hardcover?

It's ruining Disney's image. Disney is now considered 'just for girls'. Granted, it's not entirely the fault of the Princess Line. The exclusive focus on (pre-)teen girls by the Disney Channel (Hannah Montana, Wizards of Waverly Place, Sonny with a Chance, Jonas Brothers) also plays a significant role, but the exploitation of Disney's classic heroines as 'for girls only' merchandise has hurt the company's image the most. Disney is not considered 'for all ages' anymore. The 1990's are over. Disney is considered girlish and childish nowadays. Like enigmawing said:

but when they are so heavily marketed that the average person thinks Disney is nothing more than babysitting fodder for little girls, it's a little disappointing.

Besides, I think it's wrong to immerse little girls in princess fantasies. I disapprove of parents covering their daughters in this pink crap and teaching them 'everybody can be a princess'. I think girls shouldn't aspire to be princesses. That's a passive role: princesses don't have to do anything; they just wait until their prince comes to save them. Better to teach girls to take control of their own lives.

[...] And knowing many of the girls who portray Princesses in one of the parks, I'm sure they don't feel that way when performing in parades or doing character meets.

Those people are too busy doing too hard a job for too little money and too bad working conditions, that they don't have time to think about that.

[Flanger-Hanger]

Those people are too busy doing too hard a job for too little money and too bad working conditions, that they don't have time to think about that.

I didn't know that particular entry level job with supervised, 30-minute routines for which a person volunteers to be a part of and is cast for a role (based on their appearance as with any acting based position) was so deplorable. Is fast food, retail customer service or grocery store cashier that much better? Maybe uninformed blanket statements about park operations aren't the best tool for arguments.

[Goliath]

I didn't know that particular entry level job with supervised, 30-minute routines for which a person volunteers to be a part of and is cast for a role (based on their appearance as with any acting based position) was so deplorable. Is fast food, retail customer service or grocery store cashier that much better? Maybe uninformed blanket statements about park operations aren't the best tool for arguments.

I don't know why you're defending deplorable working conditions and rotten payment in the Disney theme parks (unconsiously you're feeling guilty about going there and you need to pick a fight on an internet forum to clean your consious?), but your rosary depiction of the job of a Disney 'cast member' is far from everyday reality. (And the fact that other jobs suck even harder doesn't make my point any less valid, of course. That's 'argument' is just intelectually laziness.)

[Elladorine]

Slightly off-topic here, but there was a line from Sailor Moon that I loved, something like, "I'm going to be my own type of princess!" It was Usagi replying to her guardian, who was nagging her over her unladylike habits and how she seemed to be the exact opposite of the stereotypical princess. At some other point Usagi explains there's a lot more to being a princess than waving a wand around and wearing cool clothes . . . it's about responsibility, yadda yadda yadda. While not a Disney princess, she's not far from it in many ways so maybe you get the idea.

I used to work with school-aged children for a living, and I don't really think little girls going through a "princess phase" is all that horrible, since it typically is just a phase and doesn't entirely dictate subjects for play. I'm sure I went through something similar myself thanks to Barbie, which if you think about it, has faced similar criticisms to the whole Princes line about being poor role models for young, impressionable girls. But at the same time I was dressing Barbie up in pretty gowns or was reading storybooks about Cinderella and Sleeping Beauty, I never really played the damsel in distress. I'd find my mom's old glasses, put my hair up in a bun, and pound my fist on a desk while pretending I was a powerful business woman! I'd also run around the house as Wonder Woman or Batgirl. I dunno, maybe I was just a weird kid.

[pinkrenata]

.... or Tinkerbell is just a fairy.

I *loathe* all the Pooh and Tinkerbell merchandise!

That would be Tinker Bell. Two words.

[Sotiris]

I'd find my mom's old glasses, put my hair up in a bun, and pound my fist on a desk while pretending I was a powerful business woman!

That's so awesome!

[BellesPrince]

I *loathe* all the Pooh and Tinkerbell merchandise!

That would be Tinker Bell. Two words.

I know! I don't need picking up on how to spell a fairy name.

I think it's clear that I'm not going to get on with Goliath. This person has a very singular view of the world, and a very insulting view to many people it would seem too.

I could easily take each negative 'point' he makes and refute it with evidence that just blows a hole in his arguments.

Certainly as far as Princesses being passive. Snow White and Aurora maybe, but that is very much to do with their story, and they don't have an opportunity to be anything but within the confines of their story. However, we've seen examples of Cinderella taking a stand in her second sequel. Ariel could hardly be described as a passive Princess. Belle certainly isn't, giving both the Beast and Gaston as good as she gets. Jasmine and Tiana continued in this vein, and if you're going to count Pocahontas, Mulan, Megara and Esmeralda as Princesses, they are definitely not passive leads. Though I haven't seen it yet, it looks like Rapunzel follows that trend too.

What I find more insulting is the criticisms about castmembers. While Disney may not be the model employer, I've heard a few dodgy stories over the years about the way employee's are treated myself, but I also know many people who love their jobs and love working for Disney. The suggestion is that people are worked to the bone and have little time to think. Your world view is quite insulting, and unless you actually know any Disney castmembers who back up your argument, perhaps that incorrect opinion should be kept to yourself.

Seems like there is no point in discussing anything with a person like that.

[Flanger-Hanger]

I don't know why you're defending deplorable working conditions and rotten payment in the Disney theme parks (unconsiously you're feeling guilty about going there and you need to pick a fight on an internet forum to clean your consious?)

"Lol, what?" Rotten payment? Even the attraction maintenance crews who get payed $25/hour? "Guilty about going there?" Yup, must be that. Park operations (and the tourism industry) as a whole function like the rest of the world in that wages and benefits are based on skill sets and responsibility required (and of which there are thousands of different types of jobs in a place like WDW).

but your rosary depiction of the job of a Disney 'cast member' is far from everyday reality.

No it's not. The reality is they are supervised by "character handlers" and they days where characters themselves roamed the parks unsupervised without queues for guests to meet them are long gone. Predetermined sets exist to give the employees breaks and rotate them. Cast Members in general are also unionized with benefits. All of this is fact and not "rosy". They're job isn't perfect, but what the job is is not the equivalent of a third world sweat shop. Given the facts that you've never worked or even been to a park coupled with the obvious lack of info on your part why should anyone believe you're view on what is "reality"?

(And the fact that other jobs suck even harder doesn't make my point any less valid, of course. That's 'argument' is just intelectually laziness.)

You've lost all credibility and chance of ever having an intelligent discussion about this with me or anyone when you've accused me of non-existent guilt and blatantly ignored the factors that actually determine wages and benefits in the employment market to support your misinformed, dramatized views.

It's obvious you'll never change your mind on this issue and I shouldn't care what you alone think when so many other millions of people globally participate and enjoy the theme park/tourism industry. But I will say this:

As much as I often agree with you on most subjects (and where I disagree is largely on things that are a matter of personal taste) here I feel your views (and flat out hatred of theme parks in general) are just too ridiculous, especially when compared with your usual efforts to be a reasonable, informed person (Suggesting to me thoughts of "unconscious guilt" is also uncalled for and far from "intelligent") It's a shame as I'd love to actually hear your (and other members) opinions on the entertainment/design content of the parks, but that obviously won't happen.

[BellesPrince]

You do still get the occassional characters wandering the parks on their own at Disneyland Paris, though they usually do have someone accompanying them.

It's not unusual to see Princesses or Princes, or both on their way back from an Auberge (Cinderella's Restaurant) shift, and while they don't generally stop for meets at this point, if you're polite, or they know you, they will often stop and pose for a quick photo before disappearing backstage.

The accompanying CM's will often hang back quite a way too while the characters perform, but are usually on hand, not too far away if guests want a photo taken.

I think the scheduled meets are often much easier, and more civilised, but I can see the appeal in both.

Just over a year ago, I saw a Belle I knew, and she and Gaston kept moving away to a quiet spot to pose for lots of photo's for me, and I spent about half an hour with them while they did a set, getting some fantastic photo's. I don't know what it's like in the US, but there are quite a lot of castmembers at Paris who remember a lot of the fans and go out of their way to make sure people get nice photo's with them.

[Goliath]

I think it's clear that I'm not going to get on with Goliath. This person has a very singular view of the world, and a very insulting view to many people it would seem too.

Just because I don't agree with you? Damn! You're going to have a hard time on this forum, then. Because somehow I don't expect everybody to agree with you all the time. If you have to get personal with all of them...

I could easily take each negative 'point' he makes and refute it with evidence that just blows a hole in his arguments.

What's holding you back? I always enjoy a good discussion.

Certainly as far as Princesses being passive. Snow White and Aurora maybe, but that is very much to do with their story, and they don't have an opportunity to be anything but within the confines of their story. However, we've seen examples of Cinderella taking a stand in her second sequel. Ariel could hardly be described as a passive Princess. Belle certainly isn't, giving both the Beast and Gaston as good as she gets. Jasmine and Tiana continued in this vein, and if you're going to count Pocahontas, Mulan, Megara and Esmeralda as Princesses, they are definitely not passive leads. Though I haven't seen it yet, it looks like Rapunzel follows that trend too.

Cinderella, Belle and Jasmine were all as passive as Snow White and Aurora. Because what did they really do? Cinderella sat around crying until the Fairy Godmother and her animal friends helped her out; Belle did nothing except staying in a castle until the Beast turned human; and Jasmine ran away from home once, but for the remainder of the film she stayed home and fell in love with Prince Ali, who wanted to take her away from the palace life she hated so much. Ariel was certainly not a passive girl, but people could argue she's not a good role model because she was willing to sacrifice everything for a man. Mulan, Megara and Esmeralda are not princesses and are not marketed as part of the Princess Line (Mulan is featured only very seldom). Rapunzel would still be locked up in the tower if it weren't for Flynn. That leaves only Tiana, who *is* a postive role model/icon for young girls. But she's nowhere near as iconic and famous as all the other princess (because she's a very recent addition).

But, even if you disagree with everything I said above, that still wouldn't matter much, because my point was that the Princess Line erases all the individual personalities of the characters. So even if Cinderella and Belle had indeed been active, feminist princesses, that would still have gone to waste because of the way the Princess Line works. I've seen the 'Princess'-magazine, for instance: it's all about dressing up and make-belief. It's not about reading or acquiring knowledge (Belle) or working hard to achieve goals (Tiana). It's about being pretty. And that's what's wrong with the Line. (Besides from being a cheap marketing ploy to sell second-rate crap produced by a 5 year old in a Phillepean sweatshop.)

What I find more insulting is the criticisms about castmembers. While Disney may not be the model employer, I've heard a few dodgy stories over the years about the way employee's are treated myself, but I also know many people who love their jobs and love working for Disney. The suggestion is that people are worked to the bone and have little time to think. Your world view is quite insulting, and unless you actually know any Disney castmembers who back up your argument, perhaps that incorrect opinion should be kept to yourself.

I wasn't insulting the personell and you know that very well. I would be the last to insult those people who work their asses off to earn a wage to provide for their families. I'm on their side 110% and it saddens me that you would imply that I was insulting those hard-working people. I would be a pretty worthless socialist if I was slamming working people. I was slamming Disney for the way they treat their personell.

Seems like there is no point in discussing anything with a person like that.

And yet, you just did!

Given the facts that you've never worked or even been to a park coupled with the obvious lack of info on your part why should anyone believe you're view on what is "reality"?

I've been to Disney parks. Who says I haven't? I've been to the parks years and years ago. I visited Euro Disney three times. But even if I never did, and/or even the fact that my last visit was many years ago, doesn't make your argument any more valid. Because what does somebody who goes to a theme park know about the working conditions and salary of the personell? You would only know if you asked the personell and assumed you got an honest answer. But if you merely visited, what would you know? I'm not saying what you say is false persé, but your argument for discrediting me doesn't ring true.

You've lost all credibility and chance of ever having an intelligent discussion about this with me or anyone when you've accused me of non-existent guilt and blatantly ignored the factors that actually determine wages and benefits in the employment market to support your misinformed, dramatized views.

Even if I'm misinformed, like you say, that still doesn't mean you had a good argument when you said "other jobs suck too/harder". It's just a bad argument, regardless of whether I'm right or not.

It's obvious you'll never change your mind on this issue and I shouldn't care what you alone think when so many other millions of people globally participate and enjoy the theme park/tourism industry.

Who says I will never change my mind? You really shouldn't make assumptions like that. My opinion on deplorable working conditions and bad salaries come from information I've read in books and newspaper articles on the subject years ago, as well as some info on this very forum not that long ago. Maybe that information is dated? Maybe the information on this forum was false? I'm not ruling that out. I'd love to see you back up what you said with some links. Only a fool never changes his opinion. But the fact that millions of people enjoy something is, again, not a real argument, because it doesn't prove anything.

As much as I often agree with you on most subjects [...] here I feel your views (and flat out hatred of theme parks in general) are just too ridiculous, especially when compared with your usual efforts to be a reasonable, informed person (Suggesting to me thoughts of "unconscious guilt" is also uncalled for and far from "intelligent") It's a shame as I'd love to actually hear your [...] opinions on the entertainment/design content of the parks, but that obviously won't happen.

Now, now, let's not make this personal (like the other forum member did). I admit I shouldn't have made that remark. But, you should know by now using a little hyperbole isn't unlike me. You gave me the impression you were posting an 'angry' reply, and I replied in the same vein. Like I said, I'm not ruling out the possibility that my information on working conditions and payment of personell at the theme parks is dated and/or wrong. But even if I'm proven wrong (and I will gladly admit that), I still won't like the Disney theme parks, for various reasons I have mentioned before but which you didn't adress.

I hope it's okay with you that I dislike the Disney theme parks --the same way I dislike the Disney Channel, the Princess Line and the sequels?

[BellesPrince]

Did somebody just say something?

[DisneyAnimation88]

Having been to Disney World in Florida and EuroDisney, I think there is a massive difference in staff in each. I went to EuroDisney last July and I will never forget seeing on Main Street a female employee in costume talking on a mobile phone and smoking a huge cigar. I've been to Florida 14 times and never seen a cast member speaking on a mobile phone or smoking in front of guests. Maybe there's simply a difference of attitude toward their jobs but I don't think the workers in Paris have the same enthusiasm or enjoyment for what they do as those in Florida. I'm not generalising all of the staff in Paris based on one worker but from what I saw in the week that I was there.

That being said I don't think there is any need to take issue with the opinions Goliath has expressed. Asking "Did someone just say something?" completely undermines the point of this forum to allow us all to express our individual opinions.

[BellesPrince]

I was trying to defuse the situation. He's been confrontational with me in two threads, and I don't want anything to do with him. Isn't it better to do that than to launch into a huge flame war between each other?

I can't believe your comment about DLRP, as a regular visitor there, I've never seen anything like that, and it's insulting to suggest the work ethic of the Paris castmembers is anything less than other parks. In fact, many staff work at a selection of other parks over their careers.

If I've actually ever heard negative stories about any castmembers, it's been about American castmembers at Paris, but this isn't the place to go into that.

[pinkrenata]

I visited Disneyland Paris for the first time three weeks ago and, while I never witnessed any cigar-smoking cast members, I did notice a slight decline as far as how well the parks were kept up. There was nothing major to report, just little things such as overflowing trash cans and bathroom stalls lacking toilet paper. Now I could care less about those sorts of things; however, they are just things I have never encountered during my many visits to both American parks.

I think the point is that standards are probably slightly different. Cast member expectations in the states are excruciatingly strict, which may not be the case elsewhere. That isn't a bad thing (I would say it's good for the cast members!), it just is what it is.

[Wonderlicious]

Cinderella, Belle and Jasmine were all as passive as Snow White and Aurora. Because what did they really do? Cinderella sat around crying until the Fairy Godmother and her animal friends helped her out.

Erm, Cinderella did do something; she believed. How many times do we have to go through this motion?

[Sotiris]

Ariel was certainly not a passive girl, but people could argue she's not a good role model because she was willing to sacrifice everything for a man.

People who say that obviously did not understand the movie. Ariel did not sacrifice everything for a man. That was the point of the Part of Your World sequence. Her dream was not to marry a prince but to become a part of the world above. Falling in love with a human was merely the icing on the cake or rather the extra motive she needed to pursue her dream.

Mulan, Megara and Esmeralda are not princesses and are not marketed as part of the Princess Line (Mulan is featured only very seldom).

Mulan is part of the official Disney Princess line but indeed she is featured less than the others. Still she is one the most pro-active, feminist Disney heroines.

Rapunzel would still be locked up in the tower if it weren't for Flynn.)

Flynn didn't rescue Rapunzel. Rapunzel was the one who forced him to guide her to the lanterns. She was the one who had the upper hand and took charge of her life despite Flynn's reluctant assistance.

That leaves only Tiana, who *is* a positive role model/icon for young girls. But she's nowhere near as iconic and famous as all the other princess (because she's a very recent addition).

You forgot Pocahontas, who along with Mulan, is the most undervalued in the Princess line despite having a plethora of positive traits such as a being open-minded, having a critical mind, ecological sensibilities, being intolerant to prejudices and injustices etc etc.

But, even if you disagree with everything I said above, that still wouldn't matter much, because my point was that the Princess Line erases all the individual personalities of the characters.)

Indeed, their personalities have become homogenized and trivialized in the Princess line.

So even if Cinderella and Belle had indeed been active, feminist princesses, that would still have gone to waste because of the way the Princess Line works. I've seen the 'Princess'-magazine, for instance: it's all about dressing up and make-belief. It's not about reading or acquiring knowledge (Belle) or working hard to achieve goals (Tiana). It's about being pretty. And that's what's wrong with the Line. (Besides from being a cheap marketing ploy to sell second-rate crap produced by a 5 year old in a Phillepean sweatshop.)

...which reminds me:

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/RChpSVOWp2c?fs ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/RChpSVOWp2c?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

[Lazario]

I can't believe your comment about DLRP, as a regular visitor there, I've never seen anything like that, and it's insulting to suggest the work ethic of the Paris castmembers is anything less than other parks. In fact, many staff work at a selection of other parks over their careers.

Are you insinuating that DA88 might in any way be lying?

[BellesPrince]

What is it with people wanting to be confrontational here?

Take it how you want it. All I'm saying is I've never seen any behaviour like that at Disneyland Paris and I think I've probably been there more than he has.

If indeed a person has acted in that way, then I'm sure it would have been dealt with.

It does annoy me that there is this elitist view that the castmembers in American parks are somehow better than the other parks.

[DisneyAnimation88]

I've only been to Paris once so I'm sure BellesPrince has a better idea of the staff there than myself but I can assure you that I'm not lying about the female worker I saw. We assumed she had finished her shift as the park was about to close but she was clearly an employee in costume. Like I said, I'm not saying all of the staff in Paris are bad based on one employee but that I've never seen any employee in Florida smoking or talking on a mobile phone in front of guests.

I don't wish to get involved in any issue you have with Goliath but perhaps if you ignored him and didn't respond to what he says any problems you have won't divolve into an argument.

[BellesPrince]

I take it that it wasn't a character costume, as rules are pretty stringent for those, and I've never seen any character acting out of character - of course some are better at their jobs than others, but I've never seen any of the characters do anything wrong.

I have had the odd issue with one or two other CM's, which has usually been resolved, and has probably, in most cases been a misunderstanding.

As regards the other issue, believe me, that is what I'm trying to do.