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blackcauldron85
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Post by blackcauldron85 »

blackcauldron85 wrote:So, I searched for "Bill Justice", but um, this thread showed up and he's not mentioned.

But, regardless, it's a general enough thread!

Giving Thanks for Bill Justice
http://thedisneyblog.com/2009/11/19/giv ... l-justice/

I'm planning on sending a card. Maybe it'll brighten his holidays a bit if fans send him cards!
Bill Justice's birthday is coming up...if you want to send a card, here's some info:

Send Your Love to Disney Legend Bill Justice
http://www.cartoonbrew.com/animators/se ... stice.html
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Post by Goliath »

This is an old thread, but since it's bumped, I'm going to throw in my 2 cents anyway. I've read through all 4 previous pages (I admit I only skimmed some parts) and I must say I still agree with Marky's original post the most.

I was born in 1985 and therefore, I grew up with Disney films and television series in the 1990's. I also had a huge collection of videotapes of older, classic Disney movies at home. I think Disney started to go downhill after the turn of the millennium. Obviously, many will say this is just nostalgia talking. But just as it is lazy to only cherish and see value in the things you know from your childhood, it's equally lazy to dismiss all criticism of contemporary Disney products as mere nostalgia.

And frankly, I've seen too much of that in this thread. Some people like to portray critics of the post-2000 films as people who only want 'broadway musicals' or 'fairy tales', like Disney did in the 1990's. But this is not true. What we want is quality entertainment. And Disney has given us very little of that since the beginning of the last decade.

The animation has quickly gone down-hill. Obviously, the sequels are an atrocity. That junk shouldn't even be allowed to bear the good name 'Disney'. But not just the sequels look bad. Just look at Treasure Planet. Some may argue that the 2D animation looks great. But the integration with the CGI animation failed horribly. The film looks like a videogame because of it. It distracts me and gets me out of the film. Home on the Range is even worse. To compare this with Disney's late 1950's UPA-styled cartoon shorts is a travesty. At least there was creative effort in those shorts. Home on the Range's animation is just cheap, plain and simple. These are not the standards Disney was known for.

Now let's talk stories and formula. It's not that I only want fairy tales and musicals. If you really think about it, Disney has made very little fairy tale-films. Most movies weren't (based on) fairy tales. Two of my favorite Disney-films are The Rescuers and The Great Mouse Detective, which are neither fairy tales nor musicals. And one of my top ten films is Lilo & Stitch, which definitly broke the traditional 'Disney mold'. But all these films have one thing in common that most post-2000 films have not: a great story, and appealing characters. Home on the Range has no story. I almost turned it off when a yodeling cowboy was hypnotising cows! My eyes rolled so hard they almost fell out! The Emperor's New Groove tried much too hard to be just another edgy, contemporary cartoon like there are so many nowadays. And that's part of the problem: instead of going their own way, Disney is trying to ape the (sadly) succesful efforts of competing companies.

This is not only something you see in their films. Look at their television products. I still get blown away when I watch their old Disney Afternoon animated series. Rounded-out characters, adventurous storylines, traditional Disney-esque animation, and combining humor and a moral here and there to deliver a worthwhile half hour. What do we see nowadays when we watch a Disney cartoon on tv? We see rip-offs of Cartoon Network and Nickelodeon! Badly drawn, hastely animated overly-cartoonish junk, with stupid, empty characters, aimed at the lowest common denominator. I can't see the difference between Dave the Barbarian or Brandy and Mr. Whiskers and the average Nickelodeon cartoon. Disney used to be above that, with series like Duck Tales, TaleSpin and Gargoyles. The only exception is Kim Possible, which has an original concept, appealing characters (character development) and a better animation style.

I could go on about the comics, but since they're not read in the US anymore, I'll stop here. To summarize my post: Disney has lost its soul. I must admit I haven't watched any of the CGI-film, but I don't want to and I don't have to. Just watching all the trailers and excerpts on the internet and reading the recaps and reviews makes my head hurt already, so why torture myself by going to see them? I mean, take Bolt for example. The story of a dog who stars on a tv show, but doesn't know it's only tv and think's it's reality. *Yawn* Besides that it's far too similar to Buzz Lightyear, this is the exact same storyline I've seen on an episode of Chip 'N Dale Rescue Rangers 17 years ago! Then I read that Bolt gets company from a hamster and a neurotic cat. Great, more stock characters and obligatory sidekicks I already know from previous, better films. One of the main characters is voiced by Miley Cyrus. Another attempt to push one of their talentless tween-stars down out throats! And Disney expects me to see this?

I'm curious what Princess and the Frog will bring. It opens februari this year in my country. I'll let you know what I think soon. But if it's anything like the rubbish Disney has put out the previous decade (save for Lilo & Stitch), it doesn't bode well.
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Post by The_Iceflash »

You know what I think? I think some of us look way too much into the films. Can't we just enjoy them? Are we really that elitist where we don't enjoy a classic Disney film because of some petty issue we have with the animation?
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Post by kbehm29 »

I always have to jump in and defend Home on the Range. I think it's great, it might not shout "Disney" for me - but the movie definitely has repeat viewability. I like it more every time I watch it.
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Post by WDWLocal »

I totally agree with those who think that Disney has not lost its soul, despite what Goliath thinks.
Last edited by WDWLocal on Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Goliath »

The_Iceflash wrote:You know what I think? I think some of us look way too much into the films. Can't we just enjoy them? Are we really that elitist where we don't enjoy a classic Disney film because of some petty issue we have with the animation?
What are you talking about? They're called animated films, that's what they're made of. So of course we're going to pay attention to the animation. You don't go to a restaurant and not judge how the food tastes, do you?

What is or isn't "petty" will differ from person to person. If I watch a film where the 2D-animation and the CGI-animation is integrated in a horrible, ugly, disturbing way, it takes me out of the film. And if characters and backgrounds are poorly animated, like they're a second-rate Nickelodeon tv program, I have a hard time enjoying it. I'd much rather watch a film like Mulan or Hercules instead.
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Post by Duckburger »

This has probably already been posted in some form by someone, but I haven't actually read all the posts :oops: This is clearly my opinion; so I'm sorry if I offend anybody go suck it


First of all quality is subjective, meaning that this thread is invalid. But whatever...

I'll add my opinion anyway, I don't think the quality in the official Walt Disney Feature Films (I'll leave DTV's out) has decreased at all. I think they merely took another direction in films, they started making action-esque films in begin 2000's, resulting in failure at the box office; were they bad, no (original story, solid animation, original score). Then 'comedy'-films started popping up afterwards: The Emperor's New Groove, Brother Bear (half comedy/drama) Home on the Range, Chicken Little; were they bad - no; did they fail at the box-office, again the answer would be 'no' - but it wasn't the succes Disney wanted. As a matter of fact the animation in all of the above mentioned films is known for a fact to be better than The Little Mermaid, Aladdin and Beauty and the Beast. In Lilo & Stitch I've only seen one Lilo in the entire film, though I've seen at least 5 Ariel's in The Little Mermaid.

Whether you like it or not these movies are not the definition of bad films - nobody can give a solid reason to why these would be bad, nor can be said that these are worse than everything that pre-dates them. It's always 1) the generally hated upon 2000 films; 2) post-renaissance; 3) different formula/genre; 4) different kind of storytelling; 5) the so-called added 'toilet'-humor. And the list goes on and on, sometimes it seems like people hate these films by default, which isn't really fair.

The Lion King also has some 'toilet'-humor - do people hate it because of that, the answer is 'no'. Beauty and the Beast has sub-par animation - do people hate it because of that, again the answer would be 'no'. Just because something isn't full of diabetes-inducing squeeky talking animals/objects doesn't mean it's not worth watching.

Again a statement like where have all the 'good' films gone is wrong on many levels. You can't say these movies are bad because YOU think they are, or even if 90% of the whole population agrees with you.

I have a few good questions though: what IS the definition of a so-called 'good' film? Does it only involve happily ever afters and princesses? Must it be made in CGI, hand-drawn or stop-motion?

Don't bother answering 'cause there is NO answer. Nobody can answer you - when you ask questions like where have the good films gone - 'cause it's SUBJECTIVE.

/Rant over/

P.S. I love Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin, The Little Mermaid, Lilo & Stitch, Brother Bear, etc., they were just examples to make a point.
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Post by Elladorine »

Duckburger wrote:This has probably already been posted in some form by someone, but I haven't actually read all the posts :oops: This is clearly my opinion; so I'm sorry if I offend anybody go suck it
I agree with many of your opinions here.

I think that what qualifies a "good" film to most is a combination of things. Most of us are willing to look past negative points if we've fallen in love with the characters, story, etc. On the other hand, if the film leaves a bad taste in our mouths for whatever reason, we can be quick to nitpick at all the flaws we might otherwise have ignored.

The Little Mermaid has some downright sloppy animation, but I don't care; it's still one of my favorites. :p Brother Bear did not appeal to me in the least even though I thought the animation was wonderful. I don't put it down as a bad film though (as easy as it would be to nitpick at its flaws, which may not even be as numerous as TLM); I just chalk it up as not being my cup of tea. The same goes for Home on the Range, it's in my collection, I've only watched it once, and to be honest I barely remember it. I should pull it out one of these days to give it another chance.

I think, more than anything, it's about overall appeal and what it is about the movie that personally speaks to you. Of course it's going to be different for everyone because it is indeed subjective. The Little Mermaid? I love the main character and rooted for her until the very end. Brother Bear? I saw a human that learned to look through the eyes of those he killed, yet I also saw a creature that forgave the murder of his mother all too easily, even if it wasn't intentionally murder . . . I feel both characters should have gone through a spiritual journey and couldn't identify with the whole. And Home on the Range? Um, it was about cows. :lol:

But that's just my two cents.
Last edited by Elladorine on Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Goliath »

Duckburger wrote:First of all quality is subjective,
No, it isn't. You're talking about taste. Taste is subjective. There are people who love quality films and there are people who enjoy pulp.
Duckburger wrote:they started making action-esque films in begin 2000's, resulting in failure at the box office; were they bad, no (original story, solid animation, original score).
Being 'original' doesn't mean your movie is good. You can make a very bad movie in a very original way.
Duckburger wrote:Then 'comedy'-films started popping up afterwards: The Emperor's New Groove, Brother Bear (half comedy/drama) Home on the Range, Chicken Little; were they bad - no; did they fail at the box-office, again the answer would be 'no' - but it wasn't the succes Disney wanted. As a matter of fact the animation in all of the above mentioned films is known for a fact to be better than The Little Mermaid, Aladdin and Beauty and the Beast.
Er... yes, they did bomb big-time at the box-office. Only Lilo made a decent box-office return, but not the numbers you would expect from a Disney-release. The others failed miserably. And rightly so. To say the animation was better than in the early 1990's films is a travesty. Yes, I agree that characters were frequently off-model, but that was it. All the other stuff was solid. Besides, the off-model characters didn't get me out of the film as much as the horribly failed 2D-CGI 'integration' in Atlantis or Treasure Planet. And don't even get me started on the horror that is Home on the Range.
Duckburger wrote:Whether you like it or not these movies are not the definition of bad films - nobody can give a solid reason to why these would be bad, nor can be said that these are worse than everything that pre-dates them.
I'm sorry, but that is pure and utter bullshit. "Nobody" can give "a solid reason"? According to whom? To you?! There are plenty of reasons why they suck, and I have given only a handful in this thread (I've been lengthier in others). If you like these films, that's fine, enjoy them. But don't say there's absolutely no reason why they're bad.
Duckburger wrote:It's always 1) the generally hated upon 2000 films; 2) post-renaissance; 3) different formula/genre; 4) different kind of storytelling; 5) the so-called added 'toilet'-humor. And the list goes on and on, sometimes it seems like people hate these films by default, which isn't really fair.
What also isn't fair, is this cliché you're painting of the critics. I've mentioned this lazy way of sweeping away all arguments of the critics ("you must only like princess films", "you must hate everything that isn't a musical") already in my post in this thread. It's just too easy to behind those stereotypes of critics of post-2000 films. As if the people who dislike them are only disliking them because they're "new" or "different"... Why should they? It makes no sense. Why not ask yourself the question whether it's possible that Disney dropped the ball almost consistently?
Duckburger wrote:The Lion King also has some 'toilet'-humor - do people hate it because of that, the answer is 'no'.
Yes, I do. There you go. Threw your clichéd 'argument' right out of the window. Now what?
Duckburger wrote:Just because something isn't full of diabetes-inducing squeeky talking animals/objects doesn't mean it's not worth watching.
"Diabetes squeeky talking animals"? Then how would you describe the animals in Home on the Range? Has there ever been a more annoying cast --in any film? Can somebody shoot that damn horse already? Please put him out of his misery. I never thought I could hate a Disney-character with passion, but they did it!
Duckburger wrote:Again a statement like where have all the 'good' films gone is wrong on many levels. You can't say these movies are bad because YOU think they are, or even if 90% of the whole population agrees with you.
No, I say it because it's true. Quality can be measured. You do it yourself all the time. You criticize the early 1990's films (and you have some valid points) because of 'quality' concerns. But at the same time, you don't want to accept the same quality-standards can be used to judge the post-2000 films. Suddenly, it's all 'subjective' then. That's hypocritical.
Duckburger wrote:I have a few good questions though: what IS the definition of a so-called 'good' film? Does it only involve happily ever afters and princesses? Must it be made in CGI, hand-drawn or stop-motion?
Quit the clichés already.
Duckburger wrote:Don't bother answering 'cause there is NO answer. Nobody can answer you - when you ask questions like where have the good films gone - 'cause it's SUBJECTIVE.
See above. And you need not to shout. And being a little less self-righteous and belitteling wouldn't hurt you either.
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Post by Scarred4life »

The_Iceflash wrote:You know what I think? I think some of us look way too much into the films. Can't we just enjoy them? Are we really that elitist where we don't enjoy a classic Disney film because of some petty issue we have with the animation?
Thank you. I absolutely agree. I rate movies depending on how much I enjoyed them, not on their animation. If it's a good movie, and the animation isn't HORRIBLE, then it's fine with me.
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Post by Disney Duster »

I agree with Goliath on lot of things here, not all, but a lot.

Ad for my own thoughts, I think it's kind of lazy to say that these films which most people don't like and were called sub-par by so many critics and which didn't do very well is only because things are subjective and everyone has a different opinion. It is certainly true, but that can't be the reason these films did badly and are regarded badly, because the fact that things are subjective and everyone has a different opinion applies to all films ever!

Now, one thing is the new directions they went in may be the things Disney fans usually don't like. And the action and sci-fi crowd would not want to see an animated, especially Disney animated flick, right? Not to mention that whole "animation usually appeals more to girls and younger boys" thing that they kind of blamed Treasure Planet's unsuccess on. But then wouldn't critics realize this? Why were critics still hard on the films? So the different directions can not account completely for why the films are regarded as bad. And yet another thing is while The Princess and the Frog is doing better, and has better criticial reviews (when they review the actual film and not the race issue!), it still hasn't done as we hoped, as Disney past successes have...I thought it was pretty good, but no, not quite as good as the previous Disney classics from the Renaissance or Walt's era. So the genre and different directions theory, the theory that a happily ever after and princess will make people think its good, still does not work. Though the film is a step in the right direction toward better things, and Rapunzel looks more and more promising...too bad it doesn't have more of a hand-drawn or painted look...

When it comes to animation, off-modelness is not all there is to good animation. The style of Home on the Range, which I have yet to see, but the style and animation it looks more kiddy and cartoony and even basic and unsophisticated, like the film looks to be. Of course, movment and flowiness and frames and other things account for good animation and Disney has usually been better and better with that stuff. How it moves, you know? And the draftmanship.

As for the toilet humor in The Lion King, that was more like a story point for why a character was hated and kicked out of his society. It's a funny way to do something that moves the story and a funny character. And there was no actual fart, he was just saying what his problem was. Or are you going to hate Pumbaa, and the movie, just as his kind hated him in the film, for the same reason? It's really not a reason to think The Lion King's bad.
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Post by ajmrowland »

Well, I admit to liking Atlantis and Treasure Planet, and Meet the Robinsons and Bolt, but I didn't like Brother Bear(the ending of the trailer sucked anyway), and HOTR and CL were both pretty sucky, but I at least gave CL a second chance. It's just not even Dreamworks quality anymore.
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Post by Duckburger »

First of all I was not belittling anybody - I hadn't read all the posts yet, including yours, so how can I belittle anybody when I just posted my opinion on the question that was asked. And second, I am not overly self-righteous - just tried to make my point come across.

If my post was indeed belittling, then the same can be said about your response. Putting the word argument in apostrophes is not really screaming, I respectfully disagree with your opinion, now is it. That is too, hypocrisy. And just because something is, according to you, a cliché - doesn't mean that the question or statement is invalid. I happen to not really mind clichés, and seeing as we're on a Disney-based forum, I'm surprised you do.

But nonetheless, you made your point quite clear. Let's just agree to disagree, how's that for clichés.
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Post by 2099net »

Goliath wrote:
Duckburger wrote:Whether you like it or not these movies are not the definition of bad films - nobody can give a solid reason to why these would be bad, nor can be said that these are worse than everything that pre-dates them.
I'm sorry, but that is pure and utter bullshit. "Nobody" can give "a solid reason"? According to whom? To you?! There are plenty of reasons why they suck, and I have given only a handful in this thread (I've been lengthier in others). If you like these films, that's fine, enjoy them. But don't say there's absolutely no reason why they're bad.
Sorry, Goliath, but I think you're wrong. Nobody can give a solid reason because there is no exact science to making a "hit" movie. If there was, everyone would do it. Also - by all measures of poor quality you've used in the past to measure the content of 2000's Disney films, some of Dreamworks' films from the same period have been "worse" but made more money and attained greater popularity (and to counteract that the Dreamworks distributed Wallace and Gromit: Curse of the Wererabbit achieved poor box office and hardly made any impact on the public in America at all. Are you saying that was a "bad" film?).

If we widen the parameters to include all forms of film, even trash like Transformers 1 & 2 has made more money and found much more public favour - many times of each - and those are films not even worthy of the dignity of even being released to theatres in the first place (I literally feel like weeping when I think of the millions upon millions of dollars wasted making those films). So ultimately even if the Disney films in question did "bomb" more than expected at the box office, the box office is hardly an accurate reflection of quality - or else Transformers: Return of the Fallen is a masterpiece!
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Post by Wonderlicious »

Having thought about it, I can't help but think that people have categorized the relative boom-and-bust trend of Disney animation over the course of over 70 years a bit too much, and are wanting there to be a dark age followed by another golden age followed by another dark age. The success of Disney in the late 80s and early 90s was somewhat unprecedented (Jeffrey Katzenberg expected The Little Mermaid to do as well as around the late 80s rerelease of Cinderella, aka around $30-40 million at most), and I can't help but think that people are going to let themselves down by expecting something "new, magical, bold, wonderful, fresh!". Equally, using such extreme terms can make the lesser points in the "golden age" and the better points in the "dark age" respectively seem out of place.

As for my thoughts on the films of the past ten years (do note that for some, it's been a while since I last saw them):

The Emperor's New Groove:
A relatively fun film, though it does run out of steam a bit when Kuzco turns into a llama, and only takes off again towards the end.

Atlantis: The Lost Empire
I only saw this once and it was unfortunately in pan-and-scan. I personally didn't really warm to it that much though, and whilst I appreciate the man-power gone into it, and accept that some really liked the comic-book style drawings, I wasn't too keen on them.

Lilo and Stitch
A charming little winner. A lovely setting, charming if somewhat quirky characters and some gorgeous animation. I'm happy that it did so well, even if it meant that up until around 2006 or so nobody could escape Stitch. :p

Treasure Planet
The first time I saw it, I HATED it. However, I decided for whatever reason to watch it again and quite liked it. The character animation and the overall visual design is to be commended, even if the melange of CGI and traditional animation doesn't always work (but hey, even the CGI used in - gasp - the 90s films looks a bit out of place). I could sense that it would have probably been better had Musker and Clements been left completely to their own devices - there are some cringe-making moments that seem to have been forced in by executives (such as Dr Doppler going "go Doppler, go Doppler!" in the study scene). Overall, a tragedy that it didn't do so well, and I truly wish that I'd seen it on the big screen; it deserves to be re-released, even if just to get its reputation slightly untarnished.

Brother Bear
I remember liking this one (I haven't seen it in a while). The animation is gorgeous. However, I remember being somewhat baffled by the ending; it seemed somewhat contrived.

Home on the Range
Not as good as some of the others in the past three features, but better than the first two of the decade. Essentially, it's just a little charming piece of fluff and shouldn't be compared to the likes of Beauty and the Beast.

Chicken Little
What a clunker. This film simultaneously tries to be a father-and-son picture à la Finding Nemo, a fractured fairy-tale à la Shrek and a funny alien piece à la Lilo and Stitch. However, in the process, it appears schizophrenic and contrived. Say what you like, but the comment by an animator at Disney comparing the entry of John Lassetter to the fall of the Berlin Wall is understandable in this case. Chicken Little is a reason why NOT to let executives fashion a film. :roll:

Meet the Robinsons
Very good. Shame that it didn't do that well at the box office as it really was a fun little film. It raised my hopes for CG films made at Disney.

Bolt
Certainly a charming little film. I don't know whether it would have been better or worse in the Chris Sanders version, but it's certainly quite fun in this form.

And as The Princess and the Frog has yet to open in the UK (and will probably only be on for three weeks at most :roll: ), I can't comment on that. Overall, the decade has been a mixed bag, and I can understand why some people may be disappointed, but I'm not going to be reactionary and call it a "dark age", as that would demerit the good that has been produced. To be fair, I really think that only really the Walt-era brought about consistently excellent/very good films (with the possible exception of 1943-9, and even then it's only a possible exception); even in the 90s, there's some lesser points (the gargoyles in The Hunchback of Notre Dame and the soap-opera nature of Pocahontas are questionable). Anyway, I'll shut up now. :p
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2099net wrote:
Goliath wrote: I'm sorry, but that is pure and utter bullshit. "Nobody" can give "a solid reason"? According to whom? To you?! There are plenty of reasons why they suck, and I have given only a handful in this thread (I've been lengthier in others). If you like these films, that's fine, enjoy them. But don't say there's absolutely no reason why they're bad.
Sorry, Goliath, but I think you're wrong. Nobody can give a solid reason because there is no exact science to making a "hit" movie. If there was, everyone would do it. Also - by all measures of poor quality you've used in the past to measure the content of 2000's Disney films, some of Dreamworks' films from the same period have been "worse" but made more money and attained greater popularity (and to counteract that the Dreamworks distributed Wallace and Gromit: Curse of the Wererabbit achieved poor box office and hardly made any impact on the public in America at all. Are you saying that was a "bad" film?).

If we widen the parameters to include all forms of film, even trash like Transformers 1 & 2 has made more money and found much more public favour - many times of each - and those are films not even worthy of the dignity of even being released to theatres in the first place (I literally feel like weeping when I think of the millions upon millions of dollars wasted making those films). So ultimately even if the Disney films in question did "bomb" more than expected at the box office, the box office is hardly an accurate reflection of quality - or else Transformers: Return of the Fallen is a masterpiece!
Agreed. If movies like the Twilight Saga can make millions at the box office, then that tosses out the notion that everyone is a quality critic. Do you honestly believe the average person to go out to see a movie and look for all the nitty-gritty details in the film? I think the reason why comedies and slapstick films like Shrek did so good is because people want simple entertainment. The film itself may be poor quality, but unless it's made by a thrid-grade kid most people don't care. All they care about is to have a little fun and not think so much about how it looks. Most people would probably suck at being a critic.

If I asked one random guy about the animated movie he just watched, would he talk about the motion, ratios, and color of the backgrounds or the complex traits of the story? No, I think he would just talk about the action, humor, characters, and probably some of the plot. That's why live-action films with CGI tend to be popular because of how pretty they look. Avatar used CGI to make everything exotic and pretty, but some people thought the story was unoriginal or predictable yet it's now the highest-grossing film ever. Does that mean it's a good movie?

What gets me is that anyone with an opinion that sees a movie as good or bad in their eyes thinks his or her opinion is right if the majority think the same way. I love Aladdin, but I know that there are those that do not. I could still say that Aladdin is a good movie because the majority agree with me, but there will always be people that disagree no matter how many people take my side. That's popularity, now let's move on to quality. Just because you think the movie is good or bad doesn't mean the movie itself is good or bad for sure. That is just your own opinion, and your entitled to it. I know there are people out there that like Home on the Range or hate The Lion King. Even classics like Snow White or Sleeping Beauty have their haters. It seems so alien to us that one person would dare dislike a classic, but you'll have to accept that. Not everyone will love or hate a movie. You can form your own opinions and judge the films yourself, but don't believe that what you think is fact.
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Margos
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Post by Margos »

:clap:

Here, here, Duckburger! You are speaking nothing but the truth! :D
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PrincePhillipFan
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Post by PrincePhillipFan »

blackcauldron85 wrote:
blackcauldron85 wrote:So, I searched for "Bill Justice", but um, this thread showed up and he's not mentioned.

But, regardless, it's a general enough thread!

Giving Thanks for Bill Justice
http://thedisneyblog.com/2009/11/19/giv ... l-justice/

I'm planning on sending a card. Maybe it'll brighten his holidays a bit if fans send him cards!
Bill Justice's birthday is coming up...if you want to send a card, here's some info:

Send Your Love to Disney Legend Bill Justice
http://www.cartoonbrew.com/animators/se ... stice.html
Thank you for the info, Ames! I often feel that Justice is sadly neglected when it comes to recognition. I first became aware of him after seeing him program the Duelists animatronics in the Haunted Mansion television special with the Osmonds, and when I looked up the rest of his work, I was amazed by how multitalented he was: animator, stop motion animator and director, Audio-Animatronics program designer, character designer for Imagineering. I'll try my best to send him out a card in appreciation. :)
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zackiellovedisney
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Post by zackiellovedisney »

IagoZazu wrote:
2099net wrote: Sorry, Goliath, but I think you're wrong. Nobody can give a solid reason because there is no exact science to making a "hit" movie. If there was, everyone would do it. Also - by all measures of poor quality you've used in the past to measure the content of 2000's Disney films, some of Dreamworks' films from the same period have been "worse" but made more money and attained greater popularity (and to counteract that the Dreamworks distributed Wallace and Gromit: Curse of the Wererabbit achieved poor box office and hardly made any impact on the public in America at all. Are you saying that was a "bad" film?).

If we widen the parameters to include all forms of film, even trash like Transformers 1 & 2 has made more money and found much more public favour - many times of each - and those are films not even worthy of the dignity of even being released to theatres in the first place (I literally feel like weeping when I think of the millions upon millions of dollars wasted making those films). So ultimately even if the Disney films in question did "bomb" more than expected at the box office, the box office is hardly an accurate reflection of quality - or else Transformers: Return of the Fallen is a masterpiece!
Agreed. If movies like the Twilight Saga can make millions at the box office, then that tosses out the notion that everyone is a quality critic. Do you honestly believe the average person to go out to see a movie and look for all the nitty-gritty details in the film? I think the reason why comedies and slapstick films like Shrek did so good is because people want simple entertainment. The film itself may be poor quality, but unless it's made by a thrid-grade kid most people don't care. All they care about is to have a little fun and not think so much about how it looks. Most people would probably suck at being a critic.

If I asked one random guy about the animated movie he just watched, would he talk about the motion, ratios, and color of the backgrounds or the complex traits of the story? No, I think he would just talk about the action, humor, characters, and probably some of the plot. That's why live-action films with CGI tend to be popular because of how pretty they look. Avatar used CGI to make everything exotic and pretty, but some people thought the story was unoriginal or predictable yet it's now the highest-grossing film ever. Does that mean it's a good movie?

What gets me is that anyone with an opinion that sees a movie as good or bad in their eyes thinks his or her opinion is right if the majority think the same way. I love Aladdin, but I know that there are those that do not. I could still say that Aladdin is a good movie because the majority agree with me, but there will always be people that disagree no matter how many people take my side. That's popularity, now let's move on to quality. Just because you think the movie is good or bad doesn't mean the movie itself is good or bad for sure. That is just your own opinion, and your entitled to it. I know there are people out there that like Home on the Range or hate The Lion King. Even classics like Snow White or Sleeping Beauty have their haters. It seems so alien to us that one person would dare dislike a classic, but you'll have to accept that. Not everyone will love or hate a movie. You can form your own opinions and judge the films yourself, but don't believe that what you think is fact.
I agree with you completely. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and people should respect that. I know a person that hates Lion King but thinks Home on the Range is the best thing from Disney. I can't persuade him otherwise no matter how hard I try. Then I realized that is his opinion and I left it aloe. Sure we still argue about it trying to see which is better but we still hold our own opinion. There is all this arguing about these movies being better than those but that is your opinion. Wars have been started because of people's opinions. You have your own opinion.
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Disney's Divinity
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Re: Diney Losing it's Soul?

Post by Disney's Divinity »

Disney Duster wrote:Now, one thing is the new directions they went in may be the things Disney fans usually don't like. And the action and sci-fi crowd would not want to see an animated, especially Disney animated flick, right? Not to mention that whole "animation usually appeals more to girls and younger boys" thing that they kind of blamed Treasure Planet's unsuccess on.
That's strange; I remember them saying they expected TLM to not do well because "boys' films always sell better." Also, L&S is a scifi film, too. I do love certain parts of TP that outshine the bad, but there are plenty of flaws to that film that would explain why it wasn't well-received.

Also, I agree with you about Pumbaa. It's not like in TP with the "flatulent" alien; TLK actually has no flatulence in at all (though it's implied) and it's used to actually do something character- and story-wise. Of course, it wasn't necessary and the same thing could have been done in a more "appropriate" and "clean" etiquette ( :roll: ), but regardless it's not something worth hating the whole film over. There are plenty of more valid reasons people have found to hate TLK than that.

As for whether there are "quality" reasons to hate a movie, I think some members are misinterpreting Goliath's view of qulaity as "something that sells well." Good films don't have to sell well. Equally, bad films can sell well--doesn't make them good quality though.
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