Fantasia/F2K: 2-Movie Collection Discussion: Nov. 30, 2010

[miniroll32]

...does anyone have the list of the 10 films that Lowry has restored so far? Also, is Disney in contract to only work with Lowry on their restorations at this time? Thanks!

Bare in mind that those '10' exclude titles that are currently been worked on, and also the fact its not up to date. The titles restored by Lowry, excluding Fantasia are:

Snow White, Pinocchio, Dumbo, Bambi, Cinderella, Alice in Wonderland, Peter Pan, Lady and The Tramp, Sleeping Beauty, 101 Dalmatians, The Sword in The Stone, The Jungle Book, Robin Hood and The Little Mermaid

They've already done most of the big titles as you can see - but on many of the Platinum Editions when they were first seen, they weren't always presented in their original aspect ratio

[miniroll32]

Make it optional, so that people who don't want to see it don't have to (they could have recolored her, if they want) and give the fans of the original version what they want. It's that simple.

Thats not the point though. Disney would never risk including it on the disc for fear that it could damage their reputation, and that of the loving 'Uncle Walt', as including it as an option would still allow those concerned to see it for the first time.

I think the problem with this whole debate is that were all speaking from mature and analytical perspectives, but i'll re-iterate again, not everyone is going to approve of the racial imagery (particularly sensitive parents). Its just a fact. Even though I'd love to see these scenes in their original sense, I still think this kind of stereotyping is crude and lamentable - even if it was just the way of the world back then. I would personally only want to see the imagery out of interest, since it doesn't affect the plot, narrative or flow of the film.

Why can't we just be thankful that Disney have spent thousands on getting this restored, and using hundreds of man hours researching original production work (just like many other titles) to get the film in the best possible shape? Just be thankful we even Hi-Def technology and the ability to watch these films in the comfort of our own home.

The Deems Taylor over-dub too was pretty much un-avoidable since the original audio elements for the extra sequences that were found (such as the sequence after Mickey meets Stowkoski) have either been lost or deteriorated. By including the original audio elements that exist along side the new ones, it would sound disjointed.

[Rudy Matt]

Disney Studios is in the middle of a multi-year project to do full 4K scans and full digital clean-up, working closely with Lowry Digital for restoration. Fantasia is currently getting the full digital treatment, the 10th title thus far.

Sorry to back this topic up a bit, and I apologize if this is common knowledge to others, but does anyone have the list of the 10 films that Lowry has restored so far? Also, is Disney in contract to only work with Lowry on their restorations at this time? Thanks!

I don't know, all I can do is guess...Lowry wouldn't be invovled with any CAPS films, and I know they restored Bambi and Cinderella, so this is my best guess...

Bambi
Cinderella
Peter Pan (maybe)
Dumbo
Sleeping Beauty
Pinocchio
Snow White
Alice in Wonderland
The Black Cauldron
Fantasia

I dearly hope Lowry will be allowed to restore The Three Caballeros and Make Mine Music. Caballeros is almost as complicated as Fantasia and I've never seen the film given its due on home video.

[MJW]

For anyone who hasn't seen the unedited scenes from Fantasia that are being discussed, they are on YouTube:

Scene #1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7o9HOSdnR0
Scene #2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dnS0bgaf-o
Scene #3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFXDZ-gb-9w

I'm not sure if it was already known that the clips were on YouTube, but I hadn't seen them before, just stills on other sites.

[miniroll32]

Couple of updates for y'all...

Amazon.co.uk has now renamed the Fantasia's to "Fantasia (DVD + Blu-Ray, with DVD Packaging) and "Fantasia (Blu-Ray + DVD, Blu-Ray Packaging). They've done the exact same thing with the Beauty and Beast products, though that was a few weeks ago, so maybe we'll get some more product info soon? I guess all this tells us is that like B&B, it will be same content for both products, just a different size package. And of course, it'll be a Diamond Edition.

Maybe we could move on to what extras we'd want to see in this package?

I'm hoping theirs going to be some archive footage of the Widescreen scenes that barely made it into production. I heard it was supposed to be a ratio of something like 2:20.1? Here's a little image anyway of the original test;

http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/sound/fantafig14.jpg

[KubrickFan]

Thats not the point though. Disney would never risk including it on the disc for fear that it could damage their reputation, and that of the loving 'Uncle Walt', as including it as an option would still allow those concerned to see it for the first time.

Well, then Disney simply needs to step off that. There wasn't any commotion about the WWII shorts on the several Disney Treasures, and those were a lot more offending than either the black centaurette, or even Song of the South. I didn't hear anyone complain about those shorts. Did you?

I think the problem with this whole debate is that were all speaking from mature and analytical perspectives, but i'll re-iterate again, not everyone is going to approve of the racial imagery (particularly sensitive parents). Its just a fact. Even though I'd love to see these scenes in their original sense, I still think this kind of stereotyping is crude and lamentable - even if it was just the way of the world back then. I would personally only want to see the imagery out of interest, since it doesn't affect the plot, narrative or flow of the film.

Surely, if we can approach it with a mature perspective, so would the many parents who want to buy this? So what if someone doesn't approve? There will always be someone who doesn't approve of something. Should we censor everything someone else is bothered by? Then we'll end up with a very short list of allowed subjects, I'm sure.
It may be crude, but so is the 'Chinese Mushroom Dance', and I believe those have always been in the movie since 1940. Isn't that racist? Aren't the countless other stereotypes from other Disney movies racist?

Why can't we just be thankful that Disney have spent thousands on getting this restored, and using hundreds of man hours researching original production work (just like many other titles) to get the film in the best possible shape? Just be thankful we even Hi-Def technology and the ability to watch these films in the comfort of our own home.

That's the problem, they aren't restored. They're still censored. They could have gotten some balls and say "screw it, we will release this uncensored because it's been 70 years since its first release and it will show we're better than that." But they've taken the unsurprising easy route. Too afraid that they might offend anyone. And so what if somebody's offended? Will that be the end of the world? If they released it with a disclaimer in front of the movie then there would be nothing to worry about. If people would still complain, then they're simply uneducated. Their loss.

[miniroll32]

Maybe so, but they're one of the largest corporations in the world and they'll do just about anything to protect the image of 'Uncle Walt'.

*swings pocket-watch*

He is after all the loving gentleman who would never dream of making humorous racial stereotypes he is... he is... he isss....

[jpanimation]

Who gives a damn? Animation is not a children's medium, Fantasia is not a film for children, Walt Disney didn't make films for children. He made all kinds of movies, for everyone. Who cares what kids think of Fantasia?

Umm...this is a reply to me stating Fantasia is not a kids film, adults are the target audience, and that the DVD's reflect that. I don't know what to make of this post.

Well, I see your point. But think about Toy Story 3's release date announcement. It was announced this month for a November release, 3 months apart. So I think that in order for us to get the Fantasias this year, it will have to be announced by the first week in September at the latest, otherwise it isn't going to happen. This is all speculation and I think that we should at least wait until September before we worry too much.

Fantasia is coming out in Europe at the beginning of November (if Amazon is to be believed). Less than 3 months away and no cover art or press release in sight.

The Deems Taylor over-dub too was pretty much un-avoidable since the original audio elements for the extra sequences that were found (such as the sequence after Mickey meets Stowkoski) have either been lost or deteriorated. By including the original audio elements that exist along side the new ones, it would sound disjointed.

That's why they would get an impersonator to fill in the blanks, not Corey Burton, who is just doing his stereotypical 30s/40s voice. It's such a waste to throw out all the existing elements and re-dub it with someone who is not even trying to impersonate Deems Taylor.

It's like finding some missing footage from 20000 Leagues Under the Sea, all featuring James Mason but they will be missing the audio elements. So they would just re-dub all of James Mason's lines throughout the whole movie so people are "jarred" by the newly inserted crap that really adds nothing to the experience.

All I'm saying is they haven't even tried to find an impersonator to fill in the gaps but instead they just have an in-house VA re-dub the whole thing (probably have him under contract, so it was cheap). I'd be willing to bet everything I own that with a quick search on YouTube you could find some VA, willing to work for nothing, who can do a perfect Deems Taylor (and can be digitally altered to sound like it was recorded during the 40s).

[Rudy Matt]

It may be crude, but so is the 'Chinese Mushroom Dance', and I believe those have always been in the movie since 1940. Isn't that racist? Aren't the countless other stereotypes from other Disney movies racist?

No. Racists believe in the superiority or inferiority of people based on their race. What you see in The Chinese Dance is a stereotype, but it is hardly "racist". The imagery in the Pastorale crosses a line, I think, in showing those of African descent as servants (and one in particular, as a gap-toothed inferior). Of anything in the Disney canon, it is perhaps the most offensive in terms of racial stereotypes (DuckTales The Movie notwithstanding).

[Raphdude]

So, whats your fave clip then guys?

All of them were great, but I really liked the one where Mickey brings the broom to life.

As to the quality,

WOW!! All I can say is WOW!!!

The restorers have indeed brought out more detail. I watched the clips and then the 2000 dvd of the same. The difference is night and day. It makes the 2000 dvd look like a VHS copy! The red of Mickey's robe is really red, no red-orange. There's more detail than ever before, just like I noticed with all the revealed detail in Pinocchio.

I am SO looking forward to this release.

As far as Sunflower is concerned, those scenes were cut in 1969. Everytime I've seen the film in theaters/home video, they were not there.
I can live without them.

Day one purchase for me!!!!!

[miniroll32]

Yeah I loved the clip where Mickey is casting the stars on the mountain top. The cliff is now purple, which just makes perfect sense because its bouncing off the night sky. It looks so beautiful, I cannot wait! Makes the old CYMK prints look stupid!

[jpanimation]

I'm not sure if it was already known that the clips were on YouTube, but I hadn't seen them before, just stills on other sites.

Yeah, the whole sequence unedited is available on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPKpFNm3QMM

Yeah I loved the clip where Mickey is casting the stars on the mountain top. The cliff is now purple, which just makes perfect sense because its bouncing off the night sky. It looks so beautiful, I cannot wait!

Yeah, I forgot to comment on that. That part looks amazing, the lighting effects, everything. Since I never owned the DVD and only had the VHS (I refused to buy the re-dub), I've never seen it in this high of quality. In particular, this is the first time I'm seeing the smoke coming off the Chernabog and the effect looks fantastic.

[MJW]

Since I never owned the DVD and only had the VHS (I refused to buy the re-dub), I've never seen it in this high of quality.

I've also always only owned the VHS of both Fantasia and 2000, so I am excited for this release. In fact, I don't own any DAC titles on DVD, but I do have most of them on VHS up to Home on the Range. I'm trying to stick to only the Blu/DVD combo packs, but that might change if they insist on only release The Black Cauldron on DVD.

My VCR almost ate my Fantasia tape the other night, but luckily the tape just got stuck in the VCR and did not break. It's only a matter of time before my VHS collection starts falling apart.

[MICKEYMOUSE]

I have a bad feeling this movie does not make it in this year for the US. I really hope I am wrong though.

[jpanimation]

I have a bad feeling this movie does not make it in this year for the US. I really hope I am wrong though.

Well, they already have a lot planned for 2011 (Dumbo, Alice in Wonderland, Bambi, and The Lion King). I wouldn't think they would add to it but you never know with Disney.

Also, watching the video I posted above, I just now noticed that Sunflower changes appearance every time we see her. When we first see her, she has four pigtails with blue ribbons. The next scene she has her signature sunflower in her hair and only two pigtails with blue ribbons. The next scene the sunflower is gone and she has two pigtails with yellow ribbons. It ends with her (unrolling the red carpet) back to having four pigtails with blue ribbons.

Her two pigtail hairdo is also worn by both a blue and orange centaurette and she doesn't look half bad with it (especially with the sunflower in her hair). If they digitally re-colored her and gave her a lip reduction, she could pass as a kid sister or something. That or they could just re-animate her as a cherub, since they essentially play the same role (having a childlike demeanor while playing the comic relief and serving the centaurettes).

Call me obsessed but I hate the zoom and magic unrolling carpet. It's just soo lazy when there are plenty of solutions.

What was Musicana exactly?

Since it has a featurette on the upcoming Fantasia Blu-ray, I'd like to know. I'm told there is more about it in "The Disney That Never Was", but right now all I can find is that it was a cancelled project from the early 80s that was to combine ethnic tales with music (a sequel, of sorts, to Fantasia). Apparently Mel Shaw was working on a segment featuring "Finlandia" by Sibelius that was to show how a battle between the Sun Goddess and the Ice God had provided enough molten ice to create all of Scandinavia's lakes, Ken Anderson was creating a segment on the history of jazz with frogs (featuring a cameo by Louis Armstrong) and a piece with African animals, there was to be a telling of the classic Eastern tale of Ali Baba using birds, there was to be a segment featuring Peruvian born Yma Sumac singing while depicting a beautiful girl / bird figure from the South American Andes, a telling of the English children's book "The Little Broomstick" by Woolie Reitherman, and lastly a telling of the Hans Christian Andersen tale "The Nightingale" which was to star Mickey Mouse and was to be directed by John Lasseter. Here's the art for those segments:

http://universodisney.mforos.com/97427/ ... /#21886634

Am I missing anything? I don't have access to that book so I really know nothing about this project. To make things even more confusing, I find this page:

http://www.speedylook.com/Musicana.html ... rch%3Fq%3D

They claim that after Disney bought PIXAR, Lasseter resurrected Fantasia 2006 but re-named it Musicana. Fantasia 2006 was to feature the segments we know about (Lorenzo, One by One, The Little Matchgirl, and Destino) along with a segment featuring Sebastian (from The Little Mermaid) and one featuring the USA that was to be directed by Mike Gabriel. Supposedly PIXAR was going to contribute once it became Musicana. Does anyone know if Fantasia 2006 was resurrected as Musicana and then cancelled again? or is this a bunch of BS?

I'm confused as hell but excited to find out what this Musicana featurette will tell us.

[Scamander]

I'm confused as well about Musicana but we'll see what they will show to us. On another forum I found these new cover arts for Fantasia and Fantasia 2000. Unfortunately they are pretty small:

[Coolmanio]

I like the artwork for Fantasia, but I don't like the laziness of the artwork for Fantasia 2000. They basically slapped on the old cover and added a little artwork on the right.

If this is legit, lets hope there are some touchups before official release.

[miniroll32]

Special Edition?

Special.... Edition...? Are Diamons too precious for Fantasia??

[Scamander]

This is known for a while now. I asked Disney Germany about this issue in June and they answered that 'Fantasia' and 'Fantasia 2000' are not anymore part of the Diamond Collection but will be released as 'Special Editions'. Nonetheless they will (alongside with 'Dumbo', 'Alice in Wonderland' and 'Aladdin') only be available for a short time.

[miniroll32]

Doesn't that mean they'll have less special features then? I mean, just look at the 'Dumbo' and Toy Story Special Editions. 'Dumbo' was the worst - just one short documentary that was about 20 mins long, and everything else was from the old DVD!

I can't say I'm very hopeful if its not a Diamond Edition. They're supposed to be the best-of-the-best, and you only have to look at the Snow White release to see that. Surely Fantasia deserves that too?