The Princess and the Frog Discussion - Part III

[pap64]

I had no issue with the film's message. I thought it was pretty clear...

I think what may be confusing people is that the message is far more complex, its not as straightforward as in past films. To me, the message is that it is very important to work hard for your dreams, but we shouldn't put our own happiness aside and to learn to appreciate what you have instead of desiring something you don't. Tiana was so fixated over her restaurant dream that she forgot to be a normal person and have fun.

Another message is that sometimes what you need is more important that what you want, and it should be achieved no matter what.

[totallyminnie86]

I realized I hadn't posted on here since I went to see it on opening day. I had so many thoughts swirling in my head as I was watching it, but now that its been almost a week, I'll keep it brief, lol.


Overall, I was really pleased with it. It certainly was an enjoyable film and the animation was beautiful to see on the screen a majority of the time. I thought Tiana was a wonderful and warm character, and a great representation of a princess. Charlotte was sincerely amusing and not as flat character wise as one would imagine, which was a pleasant surprise.

I don't have many complaints, because to me, I view this movie as a first effort to return to this genre. And it was a solid effort, for the most part, I'll give it that. I wasn't expecting an animated epic to build upon the previous Renaissance's legacy. Obviously this was not a Lion King, or Beauty and the Beast, and thats ok, it wasn't meant to be one. Not to say that they shouldn't be proud of their effort, they should. All I meant by that is, they've been out of the game so long, they were basically starting from scratch in this day and age, with that kind of film. Its like a rough draft so to speak, an acknowledgment that, yes, they are capable of making a good 2D film.

The music was completely hit and miss for me. On the whole, I honestly didn't care for it. There was an obvious lack of appropriate cues for singing. It felt forced and contrived much of the time. It didn't have the natural flow of combining the story and song together to forward the story. It felt more like 'dialogue dialogue dialogue, oh wait... stop everything, um, I think we're supposed to sing and dance now, we have a song here.'

To me, music is such an essential part of a Disney movie that I'm certain I would have enjoyed it more if they would have had stronger songs and a full, sweeping score. I realize that since this movie was pretty light overall, it may not have been appropriate. I still don't think its an excuse to put songs in for the sake of having songs, which a lof of the time I was it felt like for me. I'm not saying they were bad songs, they weren't. I actually liked most of them. They just didn't have the emotional drive or power to stay with you and create a presence in the movie. So basically.. my stance is : Should have gone with Menken, he's solid gold.

[Margos]

Yeah, I noticed the "second star to the right" thing, too....

OMG! That "Prince Naveen" song was hilarious!

[IagoZazu]

Plus, Tiana's "And we can talk, too" pretty much made that scene for me. I'm surprised nobody has mentioned that yet, because I personally thought it was one of the funniest lines in the whole flick (and there were a lot of funny lines). Anika's line reading really sold it, I think.

I completely agree! Yea I loved this scene!

Yeah, I enjoyed that scene too! The scene itself helped Tiana and Naveen develop and this was also the scene where my audience laughed the hardest. While the frog hunters were silly and stupid, they were supposed to be silly and stupid. How can you make hillbillies better if they already have shallow personalities? A lot of the ones that laughed were kids, but anything can make a kid laugh. What I don't understand is why some older people don't laugh at crude humor these days. I used to laugh at even the most predictable jokes and tricks, but I can see where it can get a little too much. What is it about gross humor that people don't like?

Oh, and I felt a little sorry for Louis getting hurt by those thornbushes.

[Disney Duster]

There are plenty of adults who laugh at crude humor as well. Everyone is different, the majority of people do not like such humor, though. More boys than girls seem to like it, but some people from every gender and age does.

But as we grow up, we maturely want more, better, and new, different things we haven't seen so many times before. We may be able to still laugh as hard or cry as much or feel as magical over things as much as we did before, but that doesn't mean we don't put in the effort to make things really good to the more discerning.

And those hillbillies, who came out of nowhere, took too many cues from the three stooges, and went back to nowhere, could have been done better. The could have shined instead of being thrown-in-there characters. Only Tiana and Naveen shined.

[Margos]

They weren't supposed to "shine," I don't think. That would have attracted to much attention to them, when the focus was supposed to be on Naveen and Tiana.

[Disney Duster]

They just could've been better, or not there at all, and have some other scene that builds the two main protagonists! There's a difference between blank characters...and it looking like the creators who made them were blank on ideas.

[singerguy04]

I think the hillbillies are being over-evaluated. Tiana and Naveen needed something to jump-start their relationship. Prior to that moment they had only shown disdain towards each other and this scene created an excuse for them to work together and see something in each other they had not noticed. The most exciting, fast, and interesting way to do so is in a life or death situation. Thus the frog hunters arrive. They are never meant to be deep characters, but they do have motivation. They were hungry and hunting for food. They came across the frogs, and tried to capture and eat them. When they fail they are spooked and run away. There really isn't anything wrong with that. They are also not too shallow, just minor characters.

All in all I don't see much difference between them and the huntsman in Snow White. The only purpose for the huntsman is to progress the story and release Snow White into the wild. His only motivation is to kill her or be killed himself. The only thing that stops him is her beauty. Then the character is done, not too deep there. Perhaps it's the publicity is to blame, they probably shouldn't have been on the poster. It makes you assume they are bigger characters.

P.S. what's the difference between them and Mama Odie even? It's not as if we dive deep into her character either... or any fairy godmother for that matter.

[JEANYLASER]

Dr. Facilier is my favorite villain!

[disneyboy20022]

People people...

As much as I like to find references withing Disney movies...the whole Peter pan thing doesnt fly (pardon the pun). This film takes place in the 1920's, Peter Pan takes place in 1910.

Sorry all!

hmm..well....then this though this movie still comes to my mind.... s

http://disneydvd.disney.go.com/peter-pa ... ition.html

..no its not the same time frame of the movie......but who said Neverland would end 10 years later or at all anyway?? maybe one of the stars died and they needed a new star..so Tinkerbell wispered in Ray's ears that she was evangeline.... and the rest was Ray Never

[Disney Duster]

singerguy, the Huntsman was done well. By the way, he was probably not stopped by her beauty (as the original tale says) but her kindness or innocence or defenselessness. She covers her beautiful face with her arms before he stops. He came from the Queen.

Mama Odie was done well (only her "this gonna be good line" seemed unnecessary and annoying or bothersome). Cinderella's fairy godmother was done well, Walt specifying her character was well-meaning but would laugh at the drop of a hat, she was meant to appear, then disappear, but seem like she kept watch over things (Cinderella thanking her, the slipper staying glass leading to the happy ending). Kind of like a physical form of Cinderella's faith or wish. And of course Aurora's fairy godmothers had lots of development.

These hillbillies wee just not done well. And the hillbillies in the Rescuers came off pretty bad to me too, but others said they weren't bothered by those, but were bothered by the ones in the Princess and the Frog. Lots of people in here felt they were pointless, but not other characters.

I didn't even see them on the poster. If they were characters that don't need to be that great, they took up a whole scene, and I think that says it right there, if they didn't need to be that great of course they didn't put much effort into them.

[SpringHeelJack]

I didn't even see them on the poster.

[singerguy04]

well then Duster it just seems to me that you don't like stereotypical portrayals of southern bayou folk. Which is fine, but it doesn't mean that they are not created well enough. In terms of character development these hillbillies and the characters you listed (excluding the 3 good fairies from Sleeping Beauty) are right on par with each other. They have similar screen time and they are all there to simply move the plot (like many of Disney's minor characters). The only major difference is that the hillbillies aren't as likable as a character such as Mama Odie.

Now I've only seen the film once, and I love it, but the best developed characters in this film were Tiana and Naveen. The rest, although great, didn't match. I didn't really feel for or care much for Mama Odie to be honest, and I think that mostly lends to the fact that I thought she would've been a bigger part of the film. SPOILER All she really did for Naveen was tell him to focus on the feelings he was already feeling, and Tiana didn't even get the point of the visit until later. She also told them how to become human again, and she saved them from the shadow people at the beginning of her bit. All together that's not really character development and I don't know why she's Good other than she simply is. She doesn't seem like an necessary character either, if going by your standards for the hillbillies.

BTW, i'd like to add that I'm not trying to pick on you or anything Duster. I like your posts and find you insightful, but I don't think it's fair to criticize one mans work and not hold everyone else up to the same criticism.

Also, there's another thing that I havn't read anyone talk about that made me crack up in the theater (I'll put it in white so I don't ruin it for anyone).
Did anyone else LOVE how Naveen's moth ties while he was a frog would say something while flying away? "Well, I thought it was a good idea" during the riverboat scene and the "Congratulations!" during the wedding scene! lol, they got me everytime! What a smart gag!

[Disney Duster]

Thanks SpringHeel, but I hope you got that I was merely saying I hadn't seen them, and so I didn't have an expectation for them to be unmet later.

singerguy, thank you for what you said, I think you are an insightful poster too that I like, but I also pointed out other peopel found the hillbillies pointless, not me.

I realize their scene was to build the characters, and perhaps move the story through how those characters felt, as other characters have, but the characters that you mentioned in other Disney films were just done better.

Yes, I can't explain it more than that, I don't know if the voicing or the design and animation or the execution was it, or their actions, the bits of business they did, the jokes, even their personalities (what were they, dumb, dumber, angry, angrier, old, older?) but they could've been better. As I said, there were all these rips from the three stooges.

You know how they shows Ray's family? The hillbillies weren't really more than those caricatures were, but those caricatures were fine because they lasted for like three seconds, they were very minor.

I will not let you tell me that those hillbillies were done as well as the other characters you mentioned. It doesn't matter what functions the characters had, the other characters from other films were done better, executed better, whatever it is.

And Mama Odie was better too. By the way, there is a difference between Tiana and Naveen learning from what each other does in reaction to the hillbillies, and Tiana and Naveen only doing something and moving their story forward because of what Mama Odie said to them, even if it was later, and eventually they get married and kiss and have a happy ending because of her. They did something because Mama Odie told them to do it, she gave them something, wisdom. Though I admit I thought she was going to have a bigger part, and feel she should have, she did have a big effect, the happy ending wouldn't have happened without her.

And yes, loved that gag, too, I missed the wedding congratulations, I'll look for that when I see it again!

[Disney's Divinity]

I definitely agree that the hillbillies weren't done well. They weren't funny or interesting in any way/shape/form at all. And, yes, the scene is used to help build Tiana and Naveen's relationship. That doesn't mean the same thing couldn't have been done another, better way.

Now that you mention it, I remember wishing they had given Ray's family more time--Grandma at least. They seemed more interesting to me than the human-stereotype hillbillies. I guess it's because Ray himself looked to be a boring stereotype for cheap laughs, and yet he turned out pretty unique.

[broadwaybrian318]

So any word on the release date of the DVD? I know it is suppose to be released in spring but anyone got the exact date yet?

[BrandonH]

I count the hillbillies as my least favorite part of the movie, but their slapstick antics seemed very much like a tribute to the old Looney Tunes style, and the scene did not overstay its welcome.

[singerguy04]

Well, I'm not going to argue against them being made better. I guess overall I didn't mind them or really think about/care about them. I can understand not putting too much emphasis on them simply because they aren't the focus, and with that in mind that explains why many people don't like them.

These character point out a problem in this movie for me... I don't really like the creation of characters just because you can. It's like Ray's family, Dr. John, and Stella. They all seem like interesting characters that go nowhere. Maybe this is a moment when a DTV would have been useful.

[BwayJ]

I haven't seen the film in a regular theater yet (I saw it at the Ziegfeld Theatre in NY). What trailers have they been showing with this movie?

[PrincePhillipFan]

I personally had no problem with the hillbilly characters in the film, and as others have said, it really helps to further Naveen and Tiana's relationship. What I found interesting was that in the Art of the Princess and the Frog book, the lead animator on them cites that he drew a lot of inspiration in their design and animation in Ward Kimball. Looking back at them now, they definitely feel like Ward Kimball designs and the same types of slaptstick he always added in his characters, such as Lucifer and the mice's chases in Cinderella, the Mad Hatter and March Hare, and the Indians and Lost Boys.