Mulan (Live-Action)

[Sotiris]

I didn't read the interview, but Mulan is one of the few heroines where there isn't really a problem. The worst you could say is that all her actions are ultimately fueled by a man (her father). She doesn't have the issues Jasmine or Ariel do. She defeats her own villain and solves her own problems rather than depending on someone else to do it for her.

You can always find issues if you want to. You just manipulate facts until they fit your agenda. Aside from her actions being motivated by a man (her father) and being aided by another male character (Mushu), Mulan rejects the position at the Emperor's court (a high-status career in a male-dominated field) and returns to her previous life at home. By rejecting the Emperor's job offer and entering into a romance with Shang at the end, she's repositioned in the same traditional role for women she started with. How is that feminist?

[JeanGreyForever]

I didn't read the interview, but Mulan is one of the few heroines where there isn't really a problem. The worst you could say is that all her actions are ultimately fueled by a man (her father). She doesn't have the issues Jasmine or Ariel do. She defeats her own villain and solves her own problems rather than depending on someone else to do it for her.

You can always find issues if you want to. You just manipulate facts until they fit your agenda. Aside from her actions being motivated by a man (her father) and being aided by another male character (Mushu), Mulan rejects the position at the Emperor's court (a high-status career in a male-dominated field) and returns to her previous life at home. By rejecting the Emperor's job offer and entering into a romance with Shang at the end, she's repositioned in the same traditional role for women she started with. How is that feminist?

I've heard people actually say that the ending of Mulan isn't feminist enough because she rejects the Emperor's offer and returns to a domestic life at home to get married to Shang.

I don't consider the additions to B&tB to be a correction so much as an expansion. Having the village hate Belle in part because she's an educated woman seems like a natural progression to me, and that she might try to help other women learn to read also felt organic. *shrug*

Women reading at that time wasn't something that was frowned upon. The original Beauty and the Beast was published in a magazine for women.

Maybe that wasn't their critique on Belle, but "Belle not feminist enough" came when they decided to have her not show any emotion when she departs with her father or not have her cry when she loses her freedom. Instead she tries to escape and lie about it afterwards. Also they critique her love for romance or fantasy literature by having the Beast acting like a douchebag and dissing her literature tase. His gesture of giving her the library was turned into him showing off about how much he has read.

The utter lack of emotion during the transformation sequence didn't help either. Nor did the fact that Belle apparently is feminist enough to work with tools and be an inventor but she still requires Maurice to save her at the end and her inventing skills don't impact the plot at all. And yes, that part of the Beast dissing Romeo and Juliet because it's a romance so automatically girly is so cringe and anachronistic.

[Sotiris]

I've heard people actually say that the ending of Mulan isn't feminist enough because she rejects the Emperor's offer and returns to a domestic life at home to get married to Shang.

There you go. Of course, this is easily refutable. Shang having dinner with her family, does not necessarily mean it will lead to marriage. And even if it did, Shang is someone who now values Mulan as a person and sees her an an equal, so even if they did get married, their marriage wouldn't be a traditional, oppressive one. Additionally, just because Mulan rejected the Emperor's offer does not mean she's suddenly content with being a housewife. The fame and status she's gained will undoubtedly open doors and she'll have plenty of options when she figures out what she wants to do with her life.

[Farerb]

Except she wasn't getting married with Shang. He only came over for dinner. Her returning home was more about her father and they needed her to get a resolution with her father at the end cause the whole thing was about her and her father. And I don't think a woman caring about her family or her father is anti feminist. It's like saying a mother shouldn't care about her son just because he's male.

I agree about Mushu getting more to do in terms of plots and decisions, which take some away from Mulan and he's relatively more active than other sidekicks. Mushu in my opinion is the weakest aspect of Mulan.

[JeanGreyForever]

I've heard people actually say that the ending of Mulan isn't feminist enough because she rejects the Emperor's offer and returns to a domestic life at home to get married to Shang.

There you go.

Mulan going to war for her father gets flack in certain circles as well. People say it would be more feminist if she was solely going to prove her own worth rather than for a man (especially some who grew up with fathers like Fa Zhou and count him as emotionally abusive). Of course then this strays into the culturally inaccurate territory as Chinese viewers claimed that a real Chinese daughter would never have selfish motivations.

[JeanGreyForever]

Except she wasn't getting married with Shang. He only came over for dinner. Her returning home was more about her father and they needed her to get a resolution with her father at the end cause the whole thing was about her and her father. And I don't think a woman caring about her family or her father is anti feminist. It's like saying a mother shouldn't care about her son just because he's male.

I agree about Mushu getting more to do in terms of plots and decisions, which take some away from Mulan and he's relatively more active than other sidekicks. Mushu in my opinion is the weakest aspect of Mulan.

Except this is a Disney film so it's basically a given that Mulan and Shang will end up as a couple when he visits her home, as the sequel reinforces. This is the same argument people claim when they say Belle isn't a real princess because we never actually see her marry the Prince in BATB even though it's implicit that they'll end up happily ever after (as Chip even asks). We don't need to see a wedding to realize that. So Mulan ending up with Shang as a domesticated housewife and not "joining the workforce" gets flack in some circles on Tumblr and you can imagine what they feel about the rest of the princesses. And keep in mind that some people have this delusional mentality that feminism means women cannot have any relationships at all with men, whether it's romantic or familial.

[Farerb]

Mulan going to war for her father gets flack in certain circles as well. People say it would be more feminist if she was solely going to prove her own worth rather than for a man (especially some who grew up with fathers like Fa Zhou and count him as emotionally abusive). Of course then this strays into the culturally inaccurate territory as Chinese viewers claimed that a real Chinese daughter would never have selfish motivations.

Thing is, she initially go to save her father but then it's actually proving her worth as she says: "Maybe I didn't go for my father. Maybe what I really wanted was to prove that I could do things right. So that when I looked in the mirror, I'd see someone worthwhile."

[JeanGreyForever]

Mulan going to war for her father gets flack in certain circles as well. People say it would be more feminist if she was solely going to prove her own worth rather than for a man (especially some who grew up with fathers like Fa Zhou and count him as emotionally abusive). Of course then this strays into the culturally inaccurate territory as Chinese viewers claimed that a real Chinese daughter would never have selfish motivations.

Thing is, she initially go to save her father but then it's actually proving her worth as she says: "Maybe I didn't go for my father. Maybe what I really wanted was to prove that I could do things right. So that when I looked in the mirror, I'd see someone worthwhile."

Yes, and that scene got a lot of flack from Chinese viewers who claimed this was inauthentic and Mulan too westernized as a heroine because a real Chinese daughter would never have any selfish motivations whatsoever, even if it wasn't her main one. And the Mulan in Mulan II especially got this criticism for stating that her duty is to her heart rather than in serving her family and country.

[Disney's Divinity]

Mulan rejects the position at the Emperor's court (a high-status career in a male-dominated field) and returns to her previous life at home.

Yes, that's a common criticism I've heard before. I know that the word feminist is a trigger for this forum though. People will enthusiastically and irrationally hate things for no reason and dismiss things that are correct as long as you put the word "feminist" next to it.

And I don't think a woman caring about her family or her father is anti feminist. It's like saying a mother shouldn't care about her son just because he's male.

The criticism comes more from a place that female characters don't often have motivations that come simply from themselves and are merely reactions to male characters.

[Sotiris]

Thing is, she initially go to save her father but then it's actually proving her worth as she says: "Maybe I didn't go for my father. Maybe what I really wanted was to prove that I could do things right. So that when I looked in the mirror, I'd see someone worthwhile."

Exactly. Critics conveniently seem to forget that scene.

Yes, and that scene got a lot of flack from Chinese viewers who claimed this was inauthentic and Mulan too westernized as a heroine because a real Chinese daughter would never have any selfish motivations whatsoever, even if it wasn't her main one.

Maybe non-white cultures can be misogynistic as well. Who'd thought it?

[Disney's Divinity]

Let's be honest, that's a bandaid to the problem. The character even says "maybe." If anything, it's more that she saw herself as without value because she couldn't conform to expectations for women, so it was better she throw her own life away than her father be sent to a certain death. That's tragic and it wouldn't be considered empowered either.

[JeanGreyForever]

Yes, and that scene got a lot of flack from Chinese viewers who claimed this was inauthentic and Mulan too westernized as a heroine because a real Chinese daughter would never have any selfish motivations whatsoever, even if it wasn't her main one.

Maybe non-white cultures can be misogynistic as well. Who'd thought it?

Well, I don't think the issue is misogyny here. China and many eastern countries place a huge emphasis on family and are against individualism which is a very western/American concept. So in their eyes, Mulan's motivation should be serving her family, specifically her parents. When people criticize Mulan's individualism, that doesn't equate to them believing that she should do everything for her father and not her mother because he's a man and thus more important. This isn't a gender issue. I can see why the Chinese would have an issue with Mulan's individualism because some of my Asian friends in high school used to critique this about western culture and how Americans emphasize themselves over their families.

[Sotiris]

If anything, it's more that she saw herself as without value because she couldn't conform to expectations for women, so it was better she throw her own life away than her father be sent to a certain death.

It was to prove she had value despite not conforming to societal expectations. It wasn't "I'm going to war because I'm worthless so I might as well die" but "I'm going to war to prove I'm not". I think that is empowering. Believing you're worth more than what others or society tell you you are.

So in their eyes, Mulan's motivation should be serving her family, specifically her parents. When people criticize Mulan's individualism, that doesn't equate to them believing that she should do everything for her father and not her mother because he's a man and thus more important. This isn't a gender issue.

Isn't it? I'm not buying that considering Chinese society had always been extremely patriarchal where women had no voice and little to no rights. It sounds to me their disdain for "Western individualism" is a way of masking their misogyny.

[Disney's Divinity]

It was to prove she had value despite not conforming to societal expectations. It wasn't "I'm going to war because I'm worthless so I might as well die" but "I'm going to war to prove I'm not". I think that is empowering. Believing you're worth more than what others or society tell you you are.

Maybe that's it for you. It isn't for me. Everything between the Matchmaker scene and the moment when she finally decides to leave is time after time of the world telling Mulan she is failing at what is expected at her, even her father tells her to be silent. It always felt like a combination of "I have no place here / I only bring shame the way I am" and wanting to save her father. Nowhere does the film imply that she wants to be a soldier or that she's doing this to bring honor to the family. That's why I called the quote from later in the film a band-aid, although that would mean the filmmakers were trying to retroactively fight criticisms which I don't think is the case. It doesn't accurately describe what's seen in the early parts of the film, imo, because it's simply Mulan being introspective in a moment when the worst has happened to her.

I agree with you on the other thing though. "Culture" and "tradition" are often shields for continuing misogyny.

[JeanGreyForever]

So in their eyes, Mulan's motivation should be serving her family, specifically her parents. When people criticize Mulan's individualism, that doesn't equate to them believing that she should do everything for her father and not her mother because he's a man and thus more important. This isn't a gender issue.

Isn't it? I'm not buying that considering Chinese society had always been extremely patriarchal where women had no voice and little to no rights. It sounds to me their disdain for "Western individualism" is a way of masking their misogyny.

You can pretty much say that about any culture or country from any time period, including, if not especially, contemporary American culture. Any country that has a glorified rape culture automatically ranks. And I hear Asian people, whether they're Chinese, Indian, Vietnamese, Pakistani, etc. often talking about western individualism so generalizing this view as a "mask" to cover up misogyny is frankly very disturbing in its racist implications. I don't think you really meant that but it's an incredibly tone-deaf statement and I can immediately spot the real-life privilege behind your online persona just from that alone. This isn't me saying that some of those countries don't have real issues pertaining to women, but this here isn't that at all.

[Sotiris]

You can pretty much say that about any culture or country from any time period, including, if not especially, contemporary American culture. Any country that has a glorified rape culture automatically ranks.

Yes, but they differ in the ways that misogyny is manifested, its degree and severity. Pretending that all nations are equally bad when it comes to women's rights is intellectually dishonest.

And I hear Asian people, whether they're Chinese, Indian, Vietnamese, Pakistani, etc. often talking about western individualism so generalizing this view as a "mask" to cover up misogyny is frankly very disturbing in its racist implications.

It's not as this is not limited to Asian culture(s). Eastern Europeans who are predominantly white also criticize individualism and blame everything they don't like (such as women's rights, the LGBT, immigrants, etc.) on the West's corruption. Their brand of collectivism always benefits men and patriarchal systems of power. That's why totalitarian regimes are so against individualism and use anti-individualist and anti-West rhetoric to limit personal freedoms.

[NeoSuperBlissey]

Multiple websites (including Variety.com) are reporting that the live-action "Mulan" has been rated PG-13 by the MPA for "sequences of violence." This would make "Mulan" the first Disney live-action remake so rated.

[D82]

Director Niki Caro describes four of the new characters of this version (Xian Lang, Mulan's sister, Commander Tung and Chen Honghui) in this video: https://www.fotogramas.es/noticias-cine ... es-nuevos/

[JeanGreyForever]

You can pretty much say that about any culture or country from any time period, including, if not especially, contemporary American culture. Any country that has a glorified rape culture automatically ranks.

Yes, but they differ in the ways that misogyny is manifested, its degree and severity. Pretending that all nations are equally bad when it comes to women's rights is intellectually dishonest.

And I hear Asian people, whether they're Chinese, Indian, Vietnamese, Pakistani, etc. often talking about western individualism so generalizing this view as a "mask" to cover up misogyny is frankly very disturbing in its racist implications.

It's not as this is not limited to Asian culture(s). Eastern Europeans who are predominantly white also criticize individualism and blame everything they don't like (such as women's rights, the LGBT, immigrants, etc.) on the West's corruption. Their brand of collectivism always benefits men and patriarchal systems of power. That's why totalitarian regimes are so against individualism and use anti-individualist and anti-West rhetoric to limit personal freedoms.

When the U.S. ranks as one of the most unsafe countries in the whole world for women, I think it's safe to say that it's not a little bad when it comes to women's rights but very bad indeed, enough to call out.

Except you specifically called out Chinese culture and this isn't the first time that a poster has made prejudicial remarks against China here. It's one thing to criticize the government but it's another thing entirely to judge a country based on its people. Yet in this thread, it seems there isn't a single page where someone hasn't uttered something explicitly racist and actually it's not even confined to Disney. On the Star Wars forums I browse, it shocks me how disgusting the comments are towards the Chinese market. I'm no fan of the Chinese government but it's entirely uncalled for to make sweeping statements about an entire people and basically state that all of Chinese society is sexist. I'm talking about the average Chinese person here living under those totalitarian regimes you felt the need to cite, not the people behind the regimes themselves. This is as bad as foreigners dismissing the entire U.S. as lazy, fat, and stupid Trump supporters just because of our current leader.

[Sotiris]

I'm obviously not branding all Chinese people as sexist. I'm simply trying to explain why something that I consider feminist such as Mulan's discontent with oppressive societal expectations and her desire for self-actualization could be seen negatively. I proposed that certain conservative cultural attitudes stem from systemic misogyny regardless if people care to admit it or not.

In any case, I still haven't understood your position on this. You claimed that Chinese people view Mulan as selfish and individualistic. Do you agree with that assessment?