Let's face it, Disney lost its magic. How to come back...

All topics relating to Disney-branded content.
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Kram Nebuer
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Post by Kram Nebuer »

ichabod wrote:I am sorry Movie Musicals Net but I could not disagree with you more, I think Disney has lost none of it's magic!

Atlantis

Atlantis really is one of the most amazing films I can say I've honestly seen. If there ever was anything that pushed the boundaries of animation this certainly is it!...The wonderfully stylized animation, the creativity of the world of Atlantis, the voyage of discovery, Atlantis has it all!

As for magic? Well I don't know about you but what would you call the scene where Kida combines with the crystal and the carvings of the ancestors come crashing down? ... Atlantis if full of "magic", and deserves to be recognised for the revolutionary piece of cinema it was.

If anything can be pinned to Disney's down fall, it was the unusual nature of Atlantis. Parents take their kids to see Disney's new movie, and they expect singing, pixie dust, fairies and singing candelabras and what do they get, a epic adventure film with breathtaking visuals, superb animation and not a cute sidekick in sight. And what do they do? Instead of saying "Oh it's different from other Disney films" instead they say "It's bad". Just because something breaks the mould and is different from what you expect, that does not make it bad!

It's the people who say "It doesn't feel like a Disney film" that annoy me. And if you have ever said that about a film, I hate you and think you are an arse!


...

Treasure Planet is a work of brilliance

Brother Bear

Again epic, breathtaking animation!

The animation is certainly as top notch as Disney does so there not really much point in elaborating there!

The story is very clever! I think it's the only Disney film, in fact there are hardly any stories like this where there is no villain, but everybody's the villain if you know what I mean. The villainous moments of the film come down to love! The hatred the characters show for bears/humans comes from love and fear. Both species view each other as the threat! The story I think is very refreshing and is certainly a winner!

...

Now while I'm in no way saying Star wars and Titanic are abyssmal, my point is awards and box office success usually say nothing about the quality of the film!
(ellipses and italics by me)

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MovieMusicals.net wrote:What Disney needs to do is go back to is animated musical roots that they discovered in 1989.
Ummm, didn't Walt Disney discover this with Snow White in 1937?
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Post by rb_canadian181 »

I think they could pull it together with their so called "highly anticipated" Rapunzel. It's such a classic fairy tale. I remeber there was a wonderful animated version I used to rent all the time in the disney video era of the 90's. They should widen the audience, add a lot of very good music, great character animation and detailed audience(not to mention any names, couch, cheap-quels). And let's all pray that they don't over-do the whole "princess" thing. It's getting (or has it already got?) so cheesy!!! :roll:
here's the animated one i used to really like, i wouldn't have any idea how good it actually is though. i was so young when i first saw it lol. Oh! it was by Hanna Barbera and hosted by Olivia Newton John, part of "Timeless Tales by Hallmark"....from Amazon:here it is!
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Post by Siren »

I don't think it's so much as they lost their magic, but more, the audiences are just a little more dense these days.

Kids these days, first have to see CGI, otherwise they can't be bothered. Second, they need more upbeat humour. You know the humour that would only make a tree stump laugh, that kind of intelligence. Potty, fart, burp, those are hysterical for kids. Story, character arcs, music...Kids complain and fidget. It's sad really. But it's not so much Disney needs to change, it's just the audience needs to be un-dumbified. What do most kids watch these days? Nick Toons and Cartoon Network, much of it chuck full of stupid, unintelligent humour. They are so use to that, that anything with intelligent humour and wonderful storytelling makes their heads hurt.
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Kram Nebuer
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Post by Kram Nebuer »

rb_canadian181 wrote:here's the animated one i used to really like, i wouldn't have any idea how good it actually is though. i was so young when i first saw it lol. Oh! it was by Hanna Barbera and hosted by Olivia Newton John, part of "Timeless Tales by Hallmark"....from Amazon:here it is!
My cousin has this one! We watched a long time ago when we slept over and it was so wonderful and it had singing and music and color! It was great! I remember I got so angry when the witch cut off her hair and sent her away into the forest and then it amazingly grew back! I wonder if they have this on DVD yet...
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Brother Bear

Post by Hogi Bear »

I have to disagree with many people about Brother Bear. It was a really good movie and in my opinion had a good story line, sort of a know me before you judge me kind of message and finding out that when he gets past his stereo type view that he has made a great misjudgement.

Another thing is the Box Office Total:
~$85 million in the US
~$165 million for the rest of the World
~$250 million Worldwide

I think Box Office wise, it earnt a lot more than people give it credit.
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Post by Little Red Henski »

The Hollywood studios are going to flood the market with their 3D cgi films. When that happens people will stop going to see them because people will be tired of them. Disney has to accept some blame for the death of 2D. Disney flooded the market with their 2D cheapquels. Now Disney is planning to do 3D cheapquels of Pixar films.
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Post by 2099net »

MovieMusicals.net wrote:HIGHLY Disagree with you there. If Toy Story, Finding Nemo, and Monsters, Inc. were all in 2D - they would still be the same great stories. The animation style had LITTLE to do with box office. Back when TOY STORY came out, people were VERY timid about an all computer-animated film. But it was such a great film - who cared if it was 3D?
...

Now there's FINDING NEMO. I thought the ocean was life-like, but nothing about the animation was shocking or inspiring. Just very detailed.

In any case, I don't think type of animation has anything to do with it. As long as the film is good, it will get an audience.
Well, I disagree. Let's pop over to RottenTomatoes.Com and see what all the critics said about Finding Nemo.
"So advanced - with lifelike motion and imagination-tingling artwork stroked with a silicon paintbrush - that it makes its predecessors come off as crude, ancient scrawlings on a cave wall."
-- Phil Villarreal, ARIZONA DAILY STAR

"Pixar's employees, masters of computer-generated animation, capture the look of the ocean like no artists before."
-- Lawrence Toppman, CHARLOTTE OBSERVER

"It's business as usual -- the usual being stunning visuals, a charming story, and a dab of emotional resonance thrown in for good measure."
-- Gary Thompson, PHILADELPHIA DAILY NEWS

"I challenge any adult to ignore the artistry of the amazing opaque jellyfish floating through the ocean. The animation is incredible."
-- Michael Szymanski, ZAP2IT.COM

"A gem, popping with cool tropical colors and wondrous sea creatures."
-- Scott Von Doviak, FORT WORTH STAR-TELEGRAM

"With a perfunctory plot with a lot of laughs and some very good voice actors, this could have been an entertaining film, but what elevates it above others is the animation."
-- Boyd Van Hoeij, BIBLOI.COM

"Although Finding Nemo reaches a new watermark in animation, it doesn't have the endearing characters or driving plot of Toy Story and Monsters, Inc. But then, classics are tough acts to follow."
-- Susan Tavernetti, PALO ALTO WEEKLY

"Pixar's masterpiece. It feels dizzy with color and drunk on its own otherworldly creation. Sure, it derives most of its splendor from what actually exists on our ocean floors, but that doesn’t make it any less wondrous."
-- Collin Souter, EFILMCRITIC.COM

"Lives up to Pixar's high standards for wildly creative visuals, clever comedy, solid characters and an involving story."
-- Bruce Westbrook, HOUSTON CHRONICLE

"Proves that even when Pixar is not at the top of its game, it still produces better animation than some of its competitors on their best days."
-- Jeff Strickler, MINNEAPOLIS STAR TRIBUNE

"The underwater backdrops take your breath away. No, really. They're so lifelike, you almost feel like holding your breath while watching."
-- Gene Seymour, NEWSDAY
I could go on, I only selected the relevant quotes from the first page. Only a few of the review quotes actually mention the story. Most of those that do place it second to the visuals. Like it or not, the visuals of Finding Nemo are a huge crowd puller. While the story may be praised, it is undoubtably the visuals that act as the initial hook.

Now, lets see what the critics say about Home on the Range on the same site.
"...More than a few discouraging words could be said about its dull animation. The once-great Mouse House needs to keep up with the Joneses."
-- Kit Bowen, HOLLYWOOD.COM

"The animation looks second rate, laughable even, when compared to the studios direct to video releases."
-- Josh Gilchrist, REC.ARTS.MOVIES.REVIEWS

"This 76-minute Western tall tale isn't out-and-out bad, but strictly formulaic and an underachievement from the studio that made the dazzling Snow White."
-- Walter V. Addiego, SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE
While there's not as many comments on the animation, while all Finding Nemo's comments about animation were positive, all of the comments about Home on the Range's visuals seem to be negative. On the whole, the critics just don't seem to think the visuals are important enough to even mention most of the time. :roll:

It's all very well saying the story is all that's important, but that's obviously wrong. The story will give a popular film legs as it will perhaps result in more repeat viewings and a bigger "word of mouth" audience. No one can deny that a story is important.

But people don't decide on which film to see at the opening weekend because of the story. Nobody knows the story before the film opens. You could have a film with one of the best stories ever written, but if nobody goes to the opening weekend, the film is a flop. As has already been mentioned, just see what happened to The Iron Giant.

And don't say critics reviews influence the opening weekend box office takings that much. There's lots of films critics have universally panned (Scooby Doo, Van Helsing etc) which have all had more than respectable opening weekends.

Initial appeal is a mixture of visuals, how likable the characters appear to be from previews, and... perhaps most importantly these days hype (sadly).

Like it or not, CGI films have more box office clout than the traditional handdrawn animated films. People just prefer the look of CGI. My own theory is because television offers handdrawn animation constantly, but CGI is still 'new' and therefore relatively rare.

I do find it doubtful that Nemo would have done half its business had it been handdrawn. Certainly, the story, which is nothing more than reworked set-pieces from Pixar's own Toy Story and Monsters, Inc films is just as formulaic as Disney's post Lion King films are accused of being.
Little Red Henski wrote:The Hollywood studios are going to flood the market with their 3D cgi films. When that happens people will stop going to see them because people will be tired of them. Disney has to accept some blame for the death of 2D. Disney flooded the market with their 2D cheapquels. Now Disney is planning to do 3D cheapquels of Pixar films.
I disagree LRH. I used to think this, becuase it's always easier to blame someone or something. But I think the evidence just doesn't add up. The fact that the 2D "cheapquels" sales are still on an upward trend shows that people still want them. More than ever.

It's easy to blame the cheapquels, but what did more to damage Disney's reputation? A single Little Mermaid II DTV which most people didn't even buy, or a syndicated weekly or daily "Adventures of the Little Mermaid" TV series?

I place the blame on television. Television has made cartoons readily available to almost everyone. Gone are the days of limited animation Yogi Bear and Huckleberry Hound. Gone of the days of when Saturday Morning was the only time to see lots of cartoons. We now have 24 hour dedicated cartoon channels. We even have successful prime-time animated sit-coms. And as a result, cartoons aren't special any more. When earlier Disney features were released cartoons were still seen as a treat. Now they're seen as a fixture and nothing more in the eyes of most people.

Television stopped the cartoon shorts from being profitable (and even the mighty Walt himself had to acknowledge this) and now television is making cartoon films become less profitable. CGI is currently riding a wave of popularity at the cinemas, but this too will loose popularity when CGI becomes more common on our televisions.
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Post by Andy »

Heres my little take on it all......
I dont think Disney has exactly lost any of its magic, most people say they lost the magic after 2000 but since 2000 i think Disney have come out with some great classics The Emperors New Groove every time i watch it i cant stop laughing its brilliant, Atlantis wow its great i thought the ending animation was amazing, Lilo & Stitch, after seeing this i cant stand people saying that Disney have lost there magic, its right up there in my top 5 truly fantastic, Treause Planet nice film and again it had some great animation in some parts, Brother Bear again another fantastic film that is underrated, Home On The Range im one of the few that actually quite like it...its funny, has some unique animation and i love the opening song. I also class Dinosaur as being a classic and i loved it.

So why are people saying Disney have lost there magic? Have they even watched these 7 movies? Probably not. I hate the way people say they want more Beauty And The Beast and The Little Mermaid type films, because if every Disney film was like this then wouldnt it just get boring? I think Disney just has to go through different stages, and right now everyone wants CGI and so Disney is also going to give it a go, give it afew years and people will get bored with the amount of CGI films coming out, they'll start wanting a film that has a good story and good characters instead of just something being in 3D. Sorry for me rambling on but i think i made my point that in my opinion Disney havent lost there magic.
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Post by ichabod »

Go Andy, Go Andy! ;)

Unfortunately Andy I feel that all to often people judge a film by it's box office gross, which as I mentioned before ain't everything!

The proof that people thing 2D is for kids is blatant, the amount of times I introduced a 2D film into a conversation about animated films where they are all CGI, and the response I get it "but that's for kids", It baffles me where this mindset has come from!

As Netty points out, people don't respect 2d animation, the proof is there is the ridiculously insane reviews who said HotR had awful animation, I mean these are probably the same people who will praise My Neighbors the Yamadas :roll:


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Post by Little Red Henski »

What's wrong with My Neighbor the Yamadas? Have you seen it or are you judging the film by it's character designs?
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Post by Sunset Girl »

2099net wrote:I place the blame on television. Television has made cartoons readily available to almost everyone. Gone are the days of limited animation Yogi Bear and Huckleberry Hound. Gone of the days of when Saturday Morning was the only time to see lots of cartoons. We now have 24 hour dedicated cartoon channels. We even have successful prime-time animated sit-coms. And as a result, cartoons aren't special any more. When earlier Disney features were released cartoons were still seen as a treat. Now they're seen as a fixture and nothing more in the eyes of most people.
I whole heartedly agree with that. I've been saying for years now that cartoons just aren't special anymore like they were when I was a kid. It was a big deal when cartoons appeared in prime time, and it was a huge, huge deal to go to the theater to see one. Now there's Catoon Network, Nickelodeon, Toon Disney, not to mention the advent of VHS and especially DVD.

LIttle Red Henski- I don't think Ichabod is saying that My Neighbors the Yamadas is a bad movie, but that there's going to be a lot of hypocritical people praising it that didn't like Home on the Range just because they couldn't look past the style of the latter.
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Post by Little Red Henski »

I'm just tired of people bashing Yamadas without even seeing it. I had one moron tell me he won't watch Yamada's because it looks like a bad American cartoon. It's bad enough Yamadas bombed at the Japnese boxoffice because of the character designs.
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Post by ichabod »

Little Red Henski wrote:What's wrong with My Neighbor the Yamadas? Have you seen it or are you judging the film by it's character designs?
Nothing is wrong with Yamadas at all, I'm not bashing it in the slightest, sorry if it appeared that way.

All I am saying is that the reviewers who could not see how amazingly creative and artistically abstract the animation of HotR was, will probably praise the abstract artistic quality of Yamadas.
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Post by Little Red Henski »

I'm sorry for losing my temper. I guess it was a misunderstanding.
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Post by ichabod »

It's OK, it was probably me not being clear during a Home on the Range defence rant ;).

And for the record Ghibli rocks!

With the possible exception of Kiki's Delivery Service
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Post by Nala »

I like Brother Bear. It's got transformation in it like Beauty And The Beast. It teaches us that man and animal can live together. It's a very touching movie. It took 5 years to make as well.

Dinosaur is unique because the background is actually live action and the dinosaurs and the animals are animated, I believe in CGI.
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Post by MovieMusicals.net »

Timon/Pumba fan wrote:You seem to miss my point. My point is that I disagree with you that Nemo would've done well at the box office even if it was in 2D. Because look at Brother Bear, the trailers were much more interesting than Nemo's and the movie was better than Finding Nemo(IMO) but people didn't rush out to see Brother Bear now did they.

So why did people rush out to see Finding Nemo? I don't think people rushed out to see it because Finding Nemo was "amazing" like you said since nobody knows when a movie will be amazing or not. They rushed out to see it because they were expecting to see another good animated movie from the creators of Toy Story and Monster's Inc.
Like you said, that's your opinion. I'm saying forget about Monsters Inc and Toy Story - say they were the same thing in 2D. You're forgetting the timeline.

Disney was doing GREAT all the way from Mermaid to Hunchback. People still loved 2D animation. It would have continued because fully computer-animated films were a very rare thing.

Perhaps Brother Bear, Treasure Planet, et al would have even done better if we weren't spoiled with Pixar's films.

- - -

And in regards of my saying Disney has lost its magic - I agree, I was harsh there. They didn't LOSE their magic - they just haven't been up to par with what they are capable of.

And very true, a LOT of it has to do with corporate goverance.
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Post by brownie »

Just to put in my 2 cents, I also think that if Finding Nemo were a 2D movie, it wouldn't have been as successful.

And I agree with the person who said that it is not Disney who has lost its magic, it's the audience. Very true.

I feel very sorry for the new generation of children. They won't get to enjoy movies and television that I did when I was their age...now the majority of children's entertainment is mindless crap.
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Post by Pasta67 »

MovieMusicals.net wrote:I know plenty of horrible movies that entertained me.
Hell, some movies are entertaining because they're horrible.
brownie wrote:now the majority of children's entertainment is mindless crap.
Dude, in this generation, everyone's entertainment is mindless crap. :lol: Just think, reality shows and whatnot, oy. :roll:

After reading everyone's posts lately, I've come up with a new argument.

Yes, it is kind of stupid to say that a Disney movie isn't acceptible as a Disney movie because it doesn't have that "feel". I know that I'm one of the people that said that, but now I've realized that it's idiotic to judge a movie like that and I edited my post. Also, I realize that following the formula every time is not the best idea. After all, movies that break the expected formula tend to be the ones remembered for years and years.

Secondly, I've noticed that the discussion has shifted to whether or not a 3-D movie these days would have been just as successful if it had been 2-D. Sorry, but that is just not true. It might have worked with Toy Story, when 2-D animation was still the reigning champ, but with the others, I have a feeling they would not have done as well in the box-office. I'm not saying that a movie's success in the box-office is the only factor in determining whether a movie is good or not. To tell the truth, it's not a factor at all. But take Finding Nemo and The Incredibles; they were released when 2-D animation had already reached the best that it could become (personally, I think Treasure Planet took 2-D animation to it's peak, where it could not get any better). Part of the reason people go to an animated movie is to see the medium pushed forward. If FN and TI had been 2-D when the medium was already at it's best, many people would see no reason to see it. The reason CGI is animation's cash-cow is because it is still a growing medium; there's room to improve, and people want to see these movies to see how animation has improved since the last one. MovieMusicals.net, I remember you stating an argument that if a 3-D movie was changed to 2-D, it would do just as well because it's the same movie inside. While I wish that was the case, it would not do as well. Even if it was the same beautiful movie, people would toss it aside and think "Well, this could be good, but there's a new CGI movie out that is supposed to have the best graphics ever produced! I'm going to that instead!" It would not make as much money, sadly.

And again, Disney would not technically become "magical" again if they went back to making musicals. Songs are just effective ways to move the story forward. Some movies work better with songs, some work better without. It really depends on the mood you're trying to set for the movie. I think that if you want to make a musical, decide whether or not the story would work better or worse if it was a musical. I couldn't imagine what Treasure Planet would have been like if it were a musical. I honestly think it would not have worked as well. So, if the movie needs songs to be as good as it can be, put songs in it, I'll gladly enjoy it. If the movie works better without songs, keep them out, I'll enjoy just as much.

But hey, if you want a simple solution to Disney's problem, just disown Disney and switch to Dreamworks! :lol: ............. :shifty:
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Post by Kenai »

Pasta67 wrote: And again, Disney would not technically become "magical" again if they went back to making musicals. Songs are just effective ways to move the story forward. Some movies work better with songs, some work better without. It really depends on the mood you're trying to set for the movie. I think that if you want to make a musical, decide whether or not the story would work better or worse if it was a musical. I couldn't imagine what Treasure Planet would have been like if it were a musical. I honestly think it would not have worked as well. So, if the movie needs songs to be as good as it can be, put songs in it, I'll gladly enjoy it. If the movie works better without songs, keep them out, I'll enjoy just as much.
Exactly. No one it today's society would wanna sit through an animated musical. I can imagine people looking all bored in the theater and stuff already.

Jim Hill ran an article saying that the reason they cut "IF I Never Knew You" out of Pocahontas to begin with was because during a test screening, when it ran this (and some of the other songs) that kids were all of a sudden wanting to go to the bathroom, screaming, crying etc. It's really sad, but oh well.

This new generation of kids is gonna become a crappy one with all the so-called entertainment out today.
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