The Fox and the Hound Discussion

[nomad2010]

I’ve always found this movie to be Disney’s most realistic movie. It’s sort of a little indie film in a sense. About the heartbreak that is growing up and realizing things have changed but some things stay the same. On top of that I always appreciated the time jump. It’s really the only Disney film where we spend significant amounts of time with the characters at two different ages. I also grew up in a small, country town, so I also have a certain fondness in that respect as well.

[Sotiris]

While it's not among my favorites, I do like the movie. It's wistful and melancholic, but what's wrong with that? Not everything needs to be lighthearted and happy-go-lucky. My biggest complaint about it is that they didn't have the guts to kill off Chief.

[Disney's Divinity]

Personally, I think this film is much better at the whole message about the world being cruel and how sometimes things aren't meant to be or can't be in this world anyway than Pocahontas and Hunchback, both of which I've always found overly preachy. The scenes where Widow Tweed realizes she has to leave Tod in the forest because she can't protect him, and the very ending when Tod is on the hill looking down at his former home and his dialogue with Copper is playing in the background are always guaranteed to make me cry. Aside from that, my favorite scene is when Tod and Copper meet again all grown up. And for me personally growing up, their reunion always had a similar feel to it as two people in love who can't be together. I always related to that feeling. *shrug* This is completely off-topic, but the funny thing is there's a gay bar not too far from where I live that's called The Fox and the Hound. I always loved that. <3 I guess I always identified with the message of the film, that sometimes people just come into this world as natural-born enemies, the hunter and the hunted, some taught to hate at their parent's knee and others to grow up hated for something they have no control over.

One of the most unpopular opinions I've noticed I have about the film though is I like the humor with the birds and the caterpillar... It's the same to me as Sebastian being chased by Louis, or Tom & Jerry, Roadrunner, and so on. Big Mama is probably my favorite character from this film. Overall, I think the film is very popular in the South in the U.S., particularly rural areas, because of characters that own guns, hunt, milk cows, farm, look and sound sort of like normal people do here, etc. There aren't really many animated movies, particularly Disney, that are like that.

I think the aspects that harm the film are: Mickey Rooney being Tod's voice actor when he's an adult, Vixey altogether (I mean, a love interest would be fine, but maybe one that's not annoying af), and the animation not being the greatest... Oh, and the music could've been so much better. That "Lack of Education" song has to be one of the worst in Disney history. "Goodbye May Seem Forever" is the only true winner, although Pearl Bailey lifts "Best of Friends" and makes it memorable despite its cheesiness.

[Sotiris]

I always identified with the message of the film, that sometimes people just come into this world as natural-born enemies, the hunter and the hunted, some taught to hate at their parent's knee and others to grow up hated for something they have no control over.

Well-put. That's something explored in the film with nuance and earnestness.

[Rumpelstiltskin]

To this day I'm not sure if I have seen the movie or not. I have a comic book version of the film, and I read if many times (I read all my comics countless times when I was a kid). So I know the whole story. But did I see the animated version as a kid? I don't know.

This is the movie that made Tim Burton think "What the hell am I doing here?" at the Disney studio. And for many years its true aspect ratio was a mystery. It was the first movie made by the "new generation" of Disney animators and the final one that was 100% analog and made the old way. And as many are aware, it was delayed after Don Bluth and some other animators left, which made Ron Miller start his speech with "Now that the cancer has been excised...".

It was also seen as part of Disney's renaissance:

The mass resignations were led by Don Bluth, the 42‐year‐old director of animation on “Pete's Dragon” and “The Small One,” who has generally been singled out as one of the key younger men in the recent renaissance of Disney animation.

https://www.nytimes.com/1979/09/20/arch ... cited.html

[DisneyFan09]

Well-put. That's something explored in the film with nuance and earnestness.

Do you like the film, Sotiris?

[Disney Duster]

What is "depressing for the sake of being depressing"? Movies make us feel emotions for the sake of feeling emotions. The emotions in this film are some of the most, well, emotional!

[JeanGreyForever]

When I rewatched it recently on Disney+ for the first time since childhood, I liked it a lot better than I thought I would. But I agree that the music is pretty awful and the film's comedy is a step down from even that.

It really did shock me that Tod and Copper spend like 10-15 minutes together as childhood friends onscreen, if even that long, and in-universe, they probably only play together like 2-3 times from what I remember. Hardly the foundation of an everlasting friendship and it's hard to sympathize with Copper (or for that matter, Tod's nostalgic obsession with him) after seeing all the poor, innocent animals that Copper hunts.

And Chief and Amos are two of the most unlikable characters Disney ever created. Chief should have been killed off and I didn't particularly care for the Widow Tweed being suddenly so kind to Amos at the end after everything he put her through. If they could bury the hatchet and be on civil terms with each other, there was no need for Tod and Copper to be kept apart anymore so the ending doesn't even make sense to me in that respect (especially with Chief alive).

[Disney Duster]

Wow JeanGreyForever, those are really good points. I think I wondered why Tod and Copper couldn't be friends just in general like why didn't they run off together. I guess NATURE! was just too big for them and that's the point.

You know, also, I have zero nostalgia for this film, DC Fan, so I do like this film certainly not from nostalgia, but from emotion.

[DC Fan]

What is "depressing for the sake of being depressing"? Movies make us feel emotions for the sake of feeling emotions. The emotions in this film are some of the most, well, emotional!

There are movies that are sad/somber throughout. Let´s say in live action A.I. and in animation The Secret of N.I.M.H. But these movies are well done, where everything is set in motion and you don´t feel down/depressed just because of the film itself but how its presented and how the circumstances play.

However, I feel that The Fox and the Hound is just a sad movie for no other reason than just be sad. Even the funny moments with the birds and the caterpillar feel out of place because they´re not as funny as they should and the movie itself (being not that good) doesn´t help.

Don´t know if I explained myself better. At least with the movies I mention I hope you get what I´m saying.

PS

After finishing the movie I couldn´t believe that, Disney of all companies, would let a movie like this be released. More so in theaters. Talking about animation. Certainly there are chunks of the movie (not a brief moment) where it looks like a work-in-progress. For instance, when Amos is chasing Widow Tweede.

PS1

Still, I´m amazed that this movie is so well regarded among people. I´m glad for the people that like it but, again, I feel like it´s nostalgia. As if they went (not talking Disney fans as you have shown that you clearly like it) and watch it now they´d change their minds.

PS2

I bought A.I. on DVD without having watching it. Once I did, I cried my eyes out during the whole movie that I got rid of it and would never want to watch it again.

[Disney Duster]

I am very sorry DC Fan, but A.I. is very sad and emotionally resonant just like The Fox and the Hound, The Secret of N.I.M.H. has a happy ending so I don't feel that's too sad. And yes, A.I. is a tough film to watch so I get why you would never watch it again. I occasionally watch it if it's on TV. But did you miss where I said I have no nostalgia for this movie and yet I still think it's great?

[NeverLand]

I recently watched the movie for the first time, so I have no nostalgia for it.. and it's a truly beautiful movie!
Once it was over, I just sat staring at the blank screen for 10 minutes with tears streaming down my cheeks. I couldn't move, I couldn't do anything except just cry and think about what I had just watched.
Very charming movie with a couple of very strong scenes.

[DC Fan]

I´ll give The Fox and the Hound credit in this aspect that most people will miss...it happened to me until this viewing: that Chief was not the reason Amos and Copper were angry at Tod.

Yes, initially that was the reason. However, later on we get to see that Chief is actually enjoying the circumstances of his recovery. So it´s shown that he, that was the one to be angry at Tod, didn´t care. But more importantly Amos and Cooper completely forgot about Chief. They didn´t go to check on him and even when he asked for attention was dismissed; Amos and Copper just wanted to get revenge.

This shows that what happened to Chief was just an excuse for Amos and Copper hate towards Tod. There was no reason behind it. They were so filled with anger and hate that they just wanted to kill him.

Plus, it´s very interesting to see how each one carried their hate. In the case of Amos he just kept in his mind when he saw Tod chasing his chickens and wouldn´t change his mind about him. In the case of Cooper can be translated to race. As Big Mamma said all along that a hound dog and a fox could never be friends.

That´s an amazing scene that in movies/series made today they´d hammer you over the head to the viewers to get the message.

[Mooky]

I don't know why, but a lot of late '70s and early '80s fantasy and family movies had this bleak, glum, melancholic quality to them (people here already mentioned NIMH, but also The Rescuers, The Last Unicorn, The NeverEnding Story, etc.), so in that sense you can say that The Fox and the Hound is a product of its time. Which isn't to say that the movie suffers because of it -- I find it to be strangely realistic and somber for what you'd expect a Disney movie to be. I understand the source material is even more sad and depressing, particularly the ending. Yes, the humor could have been better/subtler, but the worst thing about the movie in my opinion are its songs. With the exception of "Goodbye May Seem Forever" (every pet owner's worst nightmare), the songs are boring and lackluster, and don't fit the themes or add any value to the movie. They should have all been cut (again, minus GMSF).

So yeah, TFatH is a nice, sweet, underrated movie. Not one of Disney's best, but still pretty good. We don't talk about the sequel/midquel though.

[Disney's Divinity]

I don't know why, but a lot of late '70s and early '80s fantasy and family movies had this bleak, glum, melancholic quality to them (people here already mentioned NIMH, but also The Rescuers, The Last Unicorn, The NeverEnding Story, etc.), so in that sense you can say that The Fox and the Hound is a product of its time.

Good point.

So yeah, TFatH is a nice, sweet, underrated movie. Not one of Disney's best, but still pretty good. We don't talk about the sequel/midquel though.

I've never once finished it. I know Reba McEntire's supposed to be in it.

[JeanGreyForever]

Yes, the humor could have been better/subtler, but the worst thing about the movie in my opinion are its songs. With the exception of "Goodbye May Seem Forever" (every pet owner's worst nightmare), the songs are boring and lackluster, and don't fit the themes or add any value to the movie. They should have all been cut (again, minus GMSF).

That is the only song I like in this film. It's really heartrending and whereas I couldn't remember any of the other songs, GMSF is a song I remember even from my childhood because of the impact it has on the film and characters.

[DisneyFan09]

Now that this thread has been bumped again and it's perks and cons of The Fox and the Hound been discussed, there are plenty of structural flaws in the screenplay. At least scrutinized from an analytical, adult point of view. Most of the faults lies in the underveloped relationships between the characters. Tod and Copper's friendship is sincere and genuine, but they only spend two freaking days together, which really isn't enough to enhance their relationship. Chief and Copper's relationship is also somewhat underdeveloped, as well. Since Chief after all becomes the catalyst for Copper to avenge him, we'll see that Chief grows to care for Copper at the beginning. But after their hunt, Chief becomes envious of Copper and his affection for Copper is never restored again until the ending.

Otherwise, there are a couple of holes in the story: Why on Earth doesn't Tod redeem himself when Copper calls him out after Chief's accident? And the story never elaborates what Tod must think when he's being set free in the forest, after being randomly abandoned by his adoptive mother, without further explanation. Besides, unlike the majority, I find the ending to be vaguely executed (yes, call me out for it). If Tod and Copper have restored their conflict, couldn't they at least continue to be friends, now that Amos Slade is not their main obstacle they have to face anymore? Dinky and Boomer's various sequences of their chases after the caterpillar are distracting and while both of them are likable characters, the devotion of screentime to their chases are detractions to the actual story.

However, I do have soft spot for The Fox and the Hound, nonetheless. And my fondness for the film has grown even bigger in my adult years. Mostly because I cherish it's strengths more and more. Being a Disney-obsessed kid, I wanted to see the movie long before it was finally released on VHS (in Norway, anyway). The fact that it was an coming of age-animal movie like Bambi made me more eager to see it (since Bambi was one of my true favorites and I had a certain fondness for Disney features starring animals).
When I finally saw it, I was in the transitional age where the Renaissance films had converted me from the pre-Renaissance era. So I wonder what I've would've think of the film if I saw it prior to the transition. However, I remember liking it well enough, though ironically I didn't gave it a lot of rewatches when I finally got it. But again, my affection for the film has grown ever more in my adult years and not only because of sheer nostalgia. So I'm glad that it's gotten a huge fanbase. It's just a pity that Disney doesn't give this movie more credit.

[Disney Duster]

I haven't seen the movie recently enough to address all you present, DisneyFan09, but I will say I think it is trying to just let what happens with Tod being released back into the wild speak for itself and we don't need to know what Tod thinks because we can guess he may be confused and extremely sad. As for the ending, I would say the reason Tod and Copper can't be friends anymore is because of the huge power of nature keeping them natural enemies. It is interesting you were so excited for the movie but when you finally got it you didn't watch it much. That's kind of a sad story in it's own right.

[blackcauldron85]

I agree with nomad2010 that the film is enjoyable with its being "realistic" & having "heartbreak," & with Sotiris saying it's "wistful and melancholic." I've always liked not-so-happy endings (Pocahontas is another favorite of mine). I think even if Tod and Copper didn't have the deepest or strongest friendship, their innocence shows, and I think that's powerful and kind of the point, and goes along with what Disney Duster said about nature: Here's two oblivious kids, playing together, not a care in the world. It's sweet. Then obviously life happens and they're not best friends anymore. For Copper, parental expectations are a big part of his growing up; if he grew up with Widow Tweed, for example, and wasn't trained as a hunting dog, then he may have been able to stay friends with Tod. But Amos Slade kept young Copper away from Tod, and indoctrined him to be a fighter... if Copper wasn't a good hunting dog, who knows how Amos would've treated him. To earn his keep, he had to not be friends with Tod. Amos Slade, like Powatan, wanted their kids to not hang out with the riff raff, so to speak. So in a way, Tod + Copper are like Romeo and Juliet.

I love the look of this film; along with The Black Cauldron + TGMD, there's a richness to the colors... I've just always been drawn to the looks of these films.

But, yeah, the bittersweet story, the character designs, the look of the film all appeal to me. The music is the weakest part (except for The Best of Friends; GMSF is a beautiful, heartbreaking moment but the song itself isn't so much of a "song") but the rest of the movie is so good, it's okay in my book; a shame, but okay.

[Disney Duster]

Well said, blackcauldron85! That is true, what would have happened had Copper been raised better? And how would he have been treated had he not been good at hunting, or like Amos wanted in other ways? And it's so cool to know that the looks of the films are what draws you! That is often how I am drawn to Disney films, by their looks. "The Best of Friends" is an ok song, but perfectly suited to enhance the feeling of the scene. I watched that just now to see what it was like again. Then I watched "Goodbye May Seem Forever" and had a big cry which I didn't expect because I thought my depression killed my emotions. It may not be much of a song, but the power of it is why it's so good.