Best Disney movie of the 1950s?

[D82]

You're right that the live-action films could be just as bad and I had this same conversation with Avaitor. The Love Bug has caricatures of Chinese people and Savage Sam was so insulting to Native Americans.

I don't remember the caricatures in The Love Bug now and I haven't seen Savage Sam, but yes, they're probably several live-action films from that time that contain things that wouldn't be acceptable now.

I'm guessing Jock or Trusty thought that being her neighbor, they could get married without having to live together.

Yes, but they tell her that they both have comfortable homes where she would be welcomed, so they were clearly offering her to live with them too.

I'm surprised you felt the Wonderland characters needed to be punished though, most of them weren't really bad. If anything, they felt Alice was infringing upon them.

Well, not all of them, but at least the Queen of Hearts or the Cheshire Cat, for example. I guess I was used to Disney films having the villains get their due at the end and the protagonist learn a lesson and get a happy ending, and Alice in Wonderland doesn't have the typical Disney ending.

[JeanGreyForever]

You're right that the live-action films could be just as bad and I had this same conversation with Avaitor. The Love Bug has caricatures of Chinese people and Savage Sam was so insulting to Native Americans.

I don't remember the caricatures in The Love Bug now and I haven't seen Savage Sam, but yes, they're probably several live-action films from that time that contain things that wouldn't be acceptable now.

I'm guessing Jock or Trusty thought that being her neighbor, they could get married without having to live together.

Yes, but they tell her that they both have comfortable homes where she would be welcomed, so they were clearly offering her to live with them too.

I'm surprised you felt the Wonderland characters needed to be punished though, most of them weren't really bad. If anything, they felt Alice was infringing upon them.

Well, not all of them, but at least the Queen of Hearts or the Cheshire Cat, for example. I guess I was used to Disney films having the villains get their due at the end and the protagonist learn a lesson and get a happy ending, and Alice in Wonderland doesn't have the typical Disney ending.

I didn't remember them either but they're part of the race at the end of the film and they have really minor parts. I haven't seen Savage Sam either but I was reading a review and it talked about how racist the Native American portrayal was. In Old Yeller, they're referenced but never seen. However it wasn't exactly prime representation in Old Yeller either because they're only referenced to talk about scalping. Swiss Family Robinson also had a really negative portrayal of Asians with the pirates. That reminds me that even in Mulan, Mongolians were pissed at how the Huns were depicted as inhuman hulklings but no one ever talks about that.

I remember them saying that, in which case I'm guessing they just had their own dog mentalities and felt it would be acceptable, even if their human owners wouldn't necessarily feel that way.

The Cheshire Cat did used to be a part of the Disney Villains franchise up until 2010 when the live-action film came out and they stopped using him in Villains merch. I suppose you could argue that the Queen of Hearts not being real and all of Wonderland being a dream could have been a punishment or it nullifies the need for a punishment. That makes me wonder about your feelings on Pinocchio since there's 5 villains who go unpunished in that and they're far more villainous than anyone in Alice.

[Disney Duster]

Thank you for what you said about my photo and my experience JeanGreyForever and Amy! Yes, it was such an honor to meet Cinderella inside her castle and eat at her Royal Table. I cannot remember what we talked about in that photo. I think, not sure, but think she was one of the Cinderellas who told me the mice would use a blueberry to be turned into a coach for them (which I love!), but I love the photo because it looks like we are chatting like good friends about something really exciting or funny lol.

Yes, I liked meeting all the Princesses but Ariel and Cinderella really stuck out to me personally. Sorry Aurora lol. Did you know I have talked to o Cinderellas that sounded exactly like her?! Somehow they nailed her voice! That was a dream come true! Twice! And I met Belle when I went to her Storytime with Belle attraction. I was a knight, and then she came in in her awful yellow dress (lol jk it's not that bad) and she sounded so much like the character I thought she could have been a recording! I asked the cast members there after the attraction was over if we could meet Belle and she said Belle had to eat dinner with the Beast. Oh well...

I believe it was french toast stuffed with apples! It was inspired cuisine!

EDIT: I found the exact description!:

Caramel Apple-stuffed French Toast
Decadent French Toast stuffed with Sweet Cream Cheese and Spiced Apples drizzled with Caramel Sauce and served with Bacon

I know, Alice is so expressive!

D82, thank you for showing me that picture! I bet they really did do that intentionally!

D82 and JeanGreyForever, I bet it is supposed to be funny that those dogs think they can marry Lady and she lives with them.

[D82]

Swiss Family Robinson also had a really negative portrayal of Asians with the pirates. That reminds me that even in Mulan, Mongolians were pissed at how the Huns were depicted as inhuman hulklings but no one ever talks about that.

It's true, also Swiss Family Robinson. But I suppose in both that film and Mulan the intention wasn't to be deliberately racist; they just needed an enemy for the main characters and for the protagonist's country, respectively. Also, pirates are usually the bad guys, so in the case of Swiss Family Robinson, they had a bigger excuse not to show any good person among them.

I remember them saying that, in which case I'm guessing they just had their own dog mentalities and felt it would be acceptable, even if their human owners wouldn't necessarily feel that way.

I think you're right. Well, thanks to you now I have one less issue with the movie. Not that it was ever a big issue, but now that part makes more sense to me.

D82 and JeanGreyForever, I bet it is supposed to be funny that those dogs think they can marry Lady and she lives with them.

I guess you're right.

I suppose you could argue that the Queen of Hearts not being real and all of Wonderland being a dream could have been a punishment or it nullifies the need for a punishment.

Yes, that's how I feel now about the ending. It was all just a nightmare, so it doesn't matter if they get punished or not.

That makes me wonder about your feelings on Pinocchio since there's 5 villains who go unpunished in that and they're far more villainous than anyone in Alice.

I didn't have any problem with Pinocchio, but I think I never even realized back then that the villains go unpunished. By the end, I was focused on the sequence with Monstro and the film has a satisfying ending, so I completely forgot about where we had left them.

[Disney Duster]

JeanGreyForever, that Alice exhibit sounds so cool.

D82, but in Wonderland everything is so out of order the bad would never get punished. There was no true right or wrong in Wonderland. Would Alice have punished them?

[D82]

D82, but in Wonderland everything is so out of order the bad would never get punished. There was no true right or wrong in Wonderland.

Maybe that's what I didn't like about Alice in Wonderland, but as I said, it's not a problem for me anymore.

[Disney Duster]

Oh. Ok. Did you see what I said about Jock and Tristy?

[D82]

Oh. Ok. Did you see what I said about Jock and Tristy?

Yes, I replied to it two posts back, but I added it later, that's why you haven't seen it.

[Disney Duster]

Whoops. And with no sarcasm, I say thanks for telling me! I missed it first time!

[JeanGreyForever]

Thank you for what you said about my photo and my experience JeanGreyForever and Amy! Yes, it was such an honor to meet Cinderella inside her castle and eat at her Royal Table. I cannot remember what we talked about in that photo. I think, not sure, but think she was one of the Cinderellas who told me the mice would use a blueberry to be turned into a coach for them (which I love!), but I love the photo because it looks like we are chatting like good friends about something really exciting or funny lol.

Yes, I liked meeting all the Princesses but Ariel and Cinderella really stuck out to me personally. Sorry Aurora lol. Did you know I have talked to o Cinderellas that sounded exactly like her?! Somehow they nailed her voice! That was a dream come true! Twice! And I met Belle when I went to her Storytime with Belle attraction. I was a knight, and then she came in in her awful yellow dress (lol jk it's not that bad) and she sounded so much like the character I thought she could have been a recording! I asked the cast members there after the attraction was over if we could meet Belle and she said Belle had to eat dinner with the Beast. Oh well...

I believe it was french toast stuffed with apples! It was inspired cuisine!

EDIT: I found the exact description!:

Caramel Apple-stuffed French Toast
Decadent French Toast stuffed with Sweet Cream Cheese and Spiced Apples drizzled with Caramel Sauce and served with Bacon

I know, Alice is so expressive!

D82, thank you for showing me that picture! I bet they really did do that intentionally!

D82 and JeanGreyForever, I bet it is supposed to be funny that those dogs think they can marry Lady and she lives with them.

You really do look like one of Cinderella's besties from that picture! It must be one of your most treasured possessions! And I love how one of the mice would use a blueberry as a couch. That's certainly more suitable than a pumpkin coming from their perspective.

Do you have any pics with the rest of the princesses who visited you at the table? Lol, poor Aurora. In my experience, the three classic princesses kinda have interchangeable personalities at the parks which is kinda a bummer. That's so cool though that you've met Cinderellas and even a Belle who sound just like the real ones. Disney should use that Belle for her new voice actor instead of Julie Nathanson who I don't think sounds very much like her. Lol and yes that dress isn't the best. It's pretty but it's not Belle's real dress just from the color alone. It's too bad you couldn't personally meet her at the end though.

That sounds delicious! Especially the description.

Yes, you're probably right about Lady and her suitors!

[JeanGreyForever]

Swiss Family Robinson also had a really negative portrayal of Asians with the pirates. That reminds me that even in Mulan, Mongolians were pissed at how the Huns were depicted as inhuman hulklings but no one ever talks about that.

It's true, also Swiss Family Robinson. But I suppose in both that film and Mulan the intention wasn't to be deliberately racist; they just needed an enemy for the main characters and for the protagonist's country, respectively. Also, pirates are usually the bad guys, so in the case of Swiss Family Robinson, they had a bigger excuse not to show any good person among them.

I remember them saying that, in which case I'm guessing they just had their own dog mentalities and felt it would be acceptable, even if their human owners wouldn't necessarily feel that way.

I think you're right. Well, thanks to you now I have one less issue with the movie. Not that it was ever a big issue, but now that part makes more sense to me.

D82 and JeanGreyForever, I bet it is supposed to be funny that those dogs think they can marry Lady and she lives with them.

I guess you're right.

I suppose you could argue that the Queen of Hearts not being real and all of Wonderland being a dream could have been a punishment or it nullifies the need for a punishment.

Yes, that's how I feel now about the ending. It was all just a nightmare, so it doesn't matter if they get punished or not.

That makes me wonder about your feelings on Pinocchio since there's 5 villains who go unpunished in that and they're far more villainous than anyone in Alice.

I didn't have any problem with Pinocchio, but I think I never even realized back then that the villains go unpunished. By the end, I was focused on the sequence with Monstro and the film has a satisfying ending, so I completely forgot about where we had left them.

Yes, the pirates are pretty negative in Swiss Family Robinson but they're basically 80% racial stereotypes from what I remember. At least the pirates in Peter Pan were not racially stereotyped from what I remember. Even so, Swiss Family Robinson and Peter Pan are the two most dated films that Walt made imo. Both are full to the brim with sexism and racism.

In Mulan's case I'd say that making an entire race the villain with absolutely no nuance and even dehumanizing them is pretty bad. Especially since we've seen how China deals with races they consider beneath them like the Uighurs who are being locked in concentration camps and killed off like the Jews during the Holocaust but just like back then, nobody is doing anything to save them.

Keep in mind that they don't know much about babies and Tramp has to educate them a lot because he's a lot more wordly and knowledgable about human matters than they are so I always took it as Jock and Trusty have such privileged backgrounds with every whim catered to by their owners that for them, they can't imagine not being able to marry Lady and take her home. They'd have no idea that their human owners wouldn't be receptive to that.

It makes sense why Alice in Wonderland did that but I don't see why Peter Pan and The Wizard of Oz had to use those same endings since Oz and Neverland were always real in the books.

I guess that makes sense because the ending of Alice has all the Wonderland inhabitants chasing after Alice so they are fresh on your mind. In Pinocchio, we haven't seen any of the villains except Monstro for some time and they never get mentioned again either.

JeanGreyForever, that Alice exhibit sounds so cool.

It is especially if you check out pics online. That's why I'm so disappointed that Disney Tokyo was supposed to feature a whole Alice in Wonderland themed area but that plan was cancelled.

[blackcauldron85]

I wonder, too, about how "What Makes the Red Man Red" has been unaddressed by Disney! I wonder if they would put a disclaimer on it (like HBO Max did with GWtW), or if they'd actually edit it.

I want to change my rankings almost always as soon as I've finished them.

That makes me feel better about my choices!

JeanGrey, thanks for giving me the museum info. Yup, it was open when I was a kid...we only went into Philly once, so maybe it was too far? (And thanks for describing the French toast! I'm in Florida; I think it was 9:30ish AM when I typed that, but maybe it was 10-ish by then and I wasn't hungry yet, until I read about your food!)

but think she was one of the Cinderellas who told me the mice would use a blueberry to be turned into a coach for them (which I love!), but I love the photo because it looks like we are chatting like good friends about something really exciting or funny lol.

Yes, the photo totally looks like that!!! OMG the blueberry! <3 So cute. I'm so glad you had that amazing moment!

And I met Belle when I went to her Storytime with Belle attraction. I was a knight, and then she came in in her awful yellow dress (lol jk it's not that bad)

I never got to go to that attraction (but my husband and his family did; his brother was the Knight)-- do they really use the live-action yellow dress? Or do you not like her theme park dress? I feel like I'm missing something!

Caramel Apple-stuffed French Toast
Decadent French Toast stuffed with Sweet Cream Cheese and Spiced Apples drizzled with Caramel Sauce and served with Bacon

We need a drool emoji! Sounds amazing! (I can't eat gluten so I can't have it but I could try making my own...)

(I'm typing as I read everyone's responses, so maybe nevermind about the dress...)

yes that dress isn't the best. It's pretty but it's not Belle's real dress just from the color alone.

Oh, you guys just mean the yellowness (not goldness) of the dress, but it is supposed to be 1991 Belle, not EmmaBelle?

I don't see why Peter Pan and The Wizard of Oz had to use those same endings since Oz and Neverland were always real in the books.

Wait, I thought because Mr. & Mrs. Darling & Nana see the pirate ship at the end, that it wasn't a dream?!?!?

[D82]

Whoops. And with no sarcasm, I say thanks for telling me! I missed it first time!

Don't worry, it was my fault. I should've replied in a separate post to make sure you saw it.

D82, thank you for showing me that picture! I bet they really did do that intentionally!

You're welcome. I'm glad you also think that.

Yes, the pirates are pretty negative in Swiss Family Robinson but they're basically 80% racial stereotypes from what I remember. At least the pirates in Peter Pan were not racially stereotyped from what I remember. Even so, Swiss Family Robinson and Peter Pan are the two most dated films that Walt made imo. Both are full to the brim with sexism and racism.

Yeah, when people of other races were featured in movies back then they were usually very stereotyped.

In Mulan's case I'd say that making an entire race the villain with absolutely no nuance and even dehumanizing them is pretty bad. Especially since we've seen how China deals with races they consider beneath them like the Uighurs who are being locked in concentration camps and killed off like the Jews during the Holocaust but just like back then, nobody is doing anything to save them.

I actually never thought about that before, but I think you're right. Thankfully, in the remake it seems they're going to make them more human and give their leader a personal reason for going to war with the Chinese.

Keep in mind that they don't know much about babies and Tramp has to educate them a lot because he's a lot more wordly and knowledgable about human matters than they are so I always took it as Jock and Trusty have such privileged backgrounds with every whim catered to by their owners that for them, they can't imagine not being able to marry Lady and take her home. They'd have no idea that their human owners wouldn't be receptive to that.

That makes sense. I guess you're right about that.

It makes sense why Alice in Wonderland did that but I don't see why Peter Pan and The Wizard of Oz had to use those same endings since Oz and Neverland were always real in the books.

Well, in Alice in Wonderland it's clearer it's a dream, whereas in Peter Pan and The Wizard of Oz they leave it more ambiguous. But if in the books the worlds were real, they should've respected that. Personally, I don't like when they leave it open to interpretation. I prefer them to make it clear whether it's all real or not.

Wait, I thought because Mr. & Mrs. Darling & Nana see the pirate ship at the end, that it wasn't a dream?!?!?

Yes, but the ship at the end seems made of clouds, so we can't be sure if it's Peter Pan's ship or just a cloud that happens to have that shape. I've always hated that, I wish it had been made clear it was the real ship.

I wonder, too, about how "What Makes the Red Man Red" has been unaddressed by Disney! I wonder if they would put a disclaimer on it (like HBO Max did with GWtW), or if they'd actually edit it.

I don't think it should be edited, but a disclaimer would be nice.

[blackcauldron85]

Wait, I thought because Mr. & Mrs. Darling & Nana see the pirate ship at the end, that it wasn't a dream?!?!?

Yes, but the ship at the end seems made of clouds, so we can't be sure if it's Peter Pan's ship or just a cloud that happens to have that shape. I've always hated that, I wish it had been made clear it was the real ship.

All my life, I've assumed that it was the real ship...but now I'm not sure of anything anymore. #ExistentialCrisis. Slightly joking, but really I've never ever questioned it but now I am...

[Avaitor]

Oh wow, you got to go to Cinderella's Royal Table, Duster? That's awesome! And I'm glad that you had a good time meeting the princesses, especially Cinderella and Ariel. Your picture with Cinderella is great, btw!

I've never been able to go to there, but I have been to 1900 Park Fare, which has Cinderella characters in the evening. I've also been for breakfast, when they have British characters- Alice, the Mad Hatter, Mary Poppins, Winnie the Pooh, and Tigger, too. That was pretty cool, but at evening, Cinderella comes out with her Prince, the stepsisters, and Lady Tremaine. I believe this is the only place you can meet the Prince and Lady Tremaine now, and it's a pretty nice experience. Lady Tremaine was my favorite to meet, but I do recall one of the stepsisters trying to flirt with me, almost making my girlfriend at the time jealous. The food is nice, too! They're famous for their strawberry soup.

One fun fact I've heard about Cinderella's Royal Table before- apparently when Belle does appear, she comes out in her blue dress. From what I understand, her gold dress is a little too poofy for her to fit through the doors inside.

[DC Fan]

DC Fan, I am confused. You say you don't mean Cinderella doesn't have personality, but you say Aurora, who came after her, was the first princess to start to show personality?! I don't get it.

Sorry. For a moment I forgot and though Sleeping Beauty came out before Cinderella. Still, what I said stands in a way. I mean to say that Aurora still had personality.

[blackcauldron85]

They're famous for their strawberry soup.

YES! I haven't thought about that in a long time; a copycat recipe is here: https://recipesofdisney.com/strawberry-soup/

[D82]

All my life, I've assumed that it was the real ship...but now I'm not sure of anything anymore. #ExistentialCrisis. Slightly joking, but really I've never ever questioned it but now I am...

Sorry for ruining the ending for you. If you want to see it for yourself, here are screencaps from that moment. Though, as I said, it's up to you to decide whether it's all real or not. The ship may not be the real one, but it gives Wendy's father the feeling he had seen it before when he was a child, so it could be real after all. I personally prefer to believe it's true, though again, I don't like those types of endings.

[blackcauldron85]

I just watched the movie again a couple months ago...I just always assumed it was real. It'll take me a while to process this information...But you believe that NeverLand (and the experiences the Darlings had there) is real, I believe it's real... #IDoBelieve

[D82]

It'll take me a while to process this information...But you believe that NeverLand (and the experiences the Darlings had there) is real, I believe it's real... #IDoBelieve

That's the spirit!