Hercules Discussion

[Sotiris]

I saw this film again the other day and it made me realize that this film is extremely cynical and I never really noticed this before, what comes to my mind is the scene where Meg goes to the woods and then woodland creatures appear as if they came from Snow White or Sleeping Beauty, then they start talking as if they are from Loony Toons and then it turns out to be Pain and Panic. It stood out to me cause that's something that Walt would have never done in his films, but there were other moments, but overall most of the characters are cynical: Hades, Meg, Phil, Pegasus.

I wouldn't classify that scene as cynical. The humor is just zany, anachronistic, and out there like it is in The Emperor's New Groove. I don't see Hades as cynical either; he's just being a villain and Pegasus is jealous of the attention Herc gives Meg. Meg and Phil are cynical, but it works for the characters considering what they've been through. I don't see the movie as this cynical, anti-fairytale/fantasy film like Shrek, Chicken Little or even Tangled.

Perhaps because Musker and Clements were basically forced into making it, their heart wasn't really in it and that shows up in the final project? It's just a strange product in itself, interesting but still strange, where all the ingredients that make it are so mismatched (source material, visual design, celebrity/pop culture humor, gospel music) yet they still somehow work.

It would be a stretch to say they were forced to direct Hercules. They chose Hercules themselves among a list of many other projects. No one imposed it on them. Yes, they wanted to do Treasure Planet, but they wanted to do that ever since The Great Mouse Detective. So, unless you believe they were forced to direct Aladdin too saying that about Hercules is inconsistent as they went through the exact same selection process for both.

In regards to the music, it was their idea to do Gospel, even though Menken initially wanted something more traditional and classic like "Candide". The visual style was their doing as well. They wanted to go more stylized on Aladdin too but Katzenberg wouldn't let them. He wanted designs closer to the Disney house style. His successor Peter Schneider let them push the envelope in that area on Hercules like they wanted.

The early trailers portrayed Herc as something of a bumbling, self-absorbed egotistical type hero having comic misadventures, and I was really looking forward to that type of portrayal, a "Gaston who learns a lesson" if you will.

To me, it was very clear from the trailers that Hercules was based on the "dim-witted but kind-hearted jock" archetype. Nothing like Gaston.

The plot point of him losing his powers could have been a great way to explore this, forcing Hercules to save the day on his own merits instead of his god-given gifts.

This wouldn't have worked. Hercules isn't street-smart like Aladdin who could have outwitted or tricked the Titans or Hades into defeat.

The ultimate focus of the plot is on how being a hero is what the motivation is (and possibly the sacrifices you're willing to make), not really whether you solve the problem with brain or brawn.

Yes, and I believe the film succeeds in getting that message across.

That was actually a common Renaissance trope, of men being "enlightened" by a female character. It's actually interesting to see it in reverse with Megara being changed and overcoming her faults because of Hercules.

That's true. Ariel, Belle, Jasmine, Nala, Pocahontas, Esmeralda all improve the men in their lives. It was a nice change of pace to see the reverse happen in Hercules.

[blackcauldron85]

That was actually a common Renaissance trope, of men being "enlightened" by a female character. It's actually interesting to see it in reverse with Megara being changed and overcoming her faults because of Hercules.

That's true. Ariel, Belle, Jasmine, Nala, Pocahontas, Esmeralda all improve the men in their lives. It was a nice change of pace to see the reverse happen in Hercules.

I hadn't thought of that, but you're so right. Meg has a different feel to her than the other Disney girls, and I mean, she did need a life turn-around, and it was Herc to help her out...

[Disney's Divinity]

In regards to the music, it was their idea to do Gospel, even though Menken initially wanted something more traditional and classic like "Candide". The visual style was their doing as well. They wanted to go more stylized on Aladdin too but Katzenberg wouldn't let them. He wanted designs closer to the Disney house style. His successor Peter Schneider let them push the envelope in that area on Hercules like they wanted.

You know, the fact that they were given more control, and became more specific and niche as they went along in their story and design choices is why I'm not really surprised Hercules and TP were less successful. I still consider Hercules a strong film (TP less so--its much more flawed--and yet I still am happy it exists), but naturally being more defined has the consequence of alienating some parts of the audience. Still, you want films that take risks sometimes rather than everything always trying to limit itself down to the lowest common denominator.

[Farerb]

I saw this film again the other day and it made me realize that this film is extremely cynical and I never really noticed this before, what comes to my mind is the scene where Meg goes to the woods and then woodland creatures appear as if they came from Snow White or Sleeping Beauty, then they start talking as if they are from Loony Toons and then it turns out to be Pain and Panic. It stood out to me cause that's something that Walt would have never done in his films, but there were other moments, but overall most of the characters are cynical: Hades, Meg, Phil, Pegasus.

I wouldn't classify that scene as cynical. The humor is just zany, anachronistic, and out there like it is in The Emperor's New Groove. I don't see Hades as cynical either; he's just being a villain and Pegasus is jealous of the attention Herc gives Meg. Meg and Phil are cynical, but it works for the characters considering what they've been through. I don't see the movie as this cynical, anti-fairytale/fantasy film like Shrek, Chicken Little or even Tangled.

The way I view this scene and it only occurred to me seeing it now is as if they did a "gotcha" you thought they were cute woodland animals who came to accompany the princess, only it's more subtle I guess.
You're right about the humor but I guess I find it to not go well with some of the more serious scenes of the film, like it was mentioned that Meg is dying and then there was the humorous fight with the titans and then we return to the seriousness of Meg dying and Hercules even forgets about it, and it's all done very abruptly.
I guess the real issue to me was that I couldn't really connect or relate to Hercules I guess.
I don't find Tangled to be cynical and anti-fairytale, it does small subversions like Flynn not wanting to sing, but they also have their heart-to-heart conversations and they have sincere moments. I guess the only thing that felt out of place to me was the epilogue and not ending the film with a reprise but that also happened in Mulan and Frozen.

[Disney's Divinity]

Re-watched this yesterday out-of-the-blue. I'm always taken aback by all the little detail of the movements in hand-drawn animation when it's at its peak... I guess having to get used to nothing but crappy 3D movies, it still surprises me how superior hand-drawn animation is. TP&TF was a good bookend to SW, but I wish they still made hand-drawn films all the time.

I had the thought while watching this that technically Hercules proved himself a "true" hero before the ending. When he's powerless and the Cyclops is shouting for him to come out, he goes to confront him even though he thinks it means certain death. Megara says he'll die and he responds with, "There are worse things." So he already proved himself ready to risk his life for somebody else's. All I can think is that it couldn't happen because the deal had made him a normal human rather than the demigod he was, and he couldn't go from human to god, only from demigod to god. I know they wanted Megara to die to add dramatic stakes and also for her to prove herself; Megara is a much more interesting love interest because of that story arc than most others.

I also thought about how most people criticize TP&TF for Tiana and Facilier having little connection to one another, but, really, it's sort of true of most M&C films that the protagonist is largely irrelevant to the villain. With TLM, Ariel is useful to Ursula to get to Triton but Ursula couldn't care less about her otherwise; with Hercules, Hades' fight is with Zeus and Hercules is just this weed that's grown up in his way. TGMD is the only one where the villain's main enemy is the protagonist (Ratigan-Basil)--although I guess you could argue that Dawson is the protagonist since he narrates the opening? I wonder if TP's story changed much along the way; I can sort of envision an earlier version of the story where Silver and Amelia might've been more adversarial with one another than they are in the finished film.

Anyway, I love the designs of the miscellaneous other gods who are blink-and-you'll-miss-them. Aphrodite's is a particularly good one, imo.

[DisneyFan09]

Re-watched this yesterday out-of-the-blue. I'm always taken aback by all the little detail of the movements in hand-drawn animation when it's at its peak... I guess having to get used to nothing but crappy 3D movies, it still surprises me how superior hand-drawn animation is. TP&TF was a good bookend to SW, but I wish they still made hand-drawn films all the time.

Well, as hokey (and politically correct) as this sounds, I think both mediums have their perks. And both actually should co-exist side by side (yes, I truly stand by it). But since we live in a world where hand drawn animation is reduced to a bare minimum, it`s only natural for us who grew up with it to miss it. And poignant to look back at it and see how it used to be at it`s heyday.

I also thought about how most people criticize TP&TF for Tiana and Facilier having little connection to one another, but, really, it's sort of true of most M&C films that the protagonist is largely irrelevant to the villain. With TLM, Ariel is useful to Ursula to get to Triton but Ursula couldn't care less about her otherwise; with Hercules, Hades' fight is with Zeus and Hercules is just this weed that's grown up in his way. TGMD is the only one where the villain's main enemy is the protagonist (Ratigan-Basil)--although I guess you could argue that Dawson is the protagonist since he narrates the opening? I wonder if TP's story changed much along the way; I can sort of envision an earlier version of the story where Silver and Amelia might've been more adversarial with one another than they are in the finished film.

To be honest, I always thought it was somewhat odd how Hercules and Hades have little connection to each other. I mean, Hades sends various monsters at Hercules, still they actually never get to meet until late in the film (which also happened in Mulan, where she meets Shan-Yu late in the film). At least Aladdin and Jafar gets to interact with each other a lot (despite how Aladdin doesn`t recognize him in his normal form and doesn`t even get to know that Jafar was the old beggar. Which is also somewhat funny in hindsight).

[DisneyFan09]

D23 Magical Screening Series Presents Disney’s Hercules.
https://d23.com/d23-event/d23-magical-s ... s-hercules

[DisneyFan09]

5 Epic Facts about Hercules
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vZ4_wXwmWA

[Sotiris]

After Ursula, Scar, and Maleficent, Hades is getting a comic book origin story.

Alessandro Ranaldi & Elliott Kalan's Disney Villain Comic, Hades
https://bleedingcool.com/comics/alessan ... mic-hades/

Disney Villains: Hades #1 Preview: In Search of Fleece
https://bleedingcool.com/comics/disney- ... of-fleece/


Hercules is also getting his own comic book series.

Disney's Hercules Comes to Comics by Elliott Kalan & George Kambadais
https://bleedingcool.com/comics/disneys ... kambadais/

Hercules #1 Preview: Herc's Statue Smackdown
https://bleedingcool.com/comics/hercule ... smackdown/

[Disney's Divinity]

Here for it, but I've never been able to find the Ursula one anywhere. Did it even come to be or was it simply talked about?

[Mooky]

https://www.reddit.com/r/superman/comme ... rcules_to/



https://www.pinterest.com/pin/561683384777293457/

[Farerb]

I believe they said somewhere that the inspiration for Hercules was Superman and Rocky.

[Disney's Divinity]

Yeah, they've always said Superman was inspiration for the film, but these kind of things are fun. That second picture is so cute.

I didn't know Lois Lane was a sassy character? But I admittedly never liked Superman enough to watch those films over the years. I think I've seen bits of one of the Reeve films, and then a Superman film that came out in the '00s where Amy Adams was Lois Lane, I think? Otherwise, it's one of those properties where everyone sort of knows the very basics--that's about it for me. When I do think of Superman / Clark Kent, for whatever reason I've always thought stiff and cold. Whereas when I think of Hercules (the character), I think sweet.

[Mooky]

The Karate Kid was also one of the inspirations. I just posted the pics because I though they were fun and comparisons like these are always amusing.

[Disney's Divinity]

It's funny that I love Hercules, but never really liked Superman and if I've seen Karate Kid before, I don't remember it. Now Rocky, I have seen that--also knew it inspired Hercules even without them saying it (Phil is too obvious a reference)--and those films are okay even if I wouldn't call them something I enjoy a great deal or anything. I don't think I've seen all of them though.

It could be Henry Cavill has something to do with me thinking of Superman as a cold character. There's something about him that comes off just ice cold. With people, it's all in the eyes for me (window to the soul and all that). He is handsome though. I saw some interview with him and another actress a while back where they were advertising that Sherlock film Cavill was in, and he said something along the lines of--and I could have this wrong--how he had an almost violent upbringing (brothers / father) or something along those lines, so that could be part of why he comes off that way, I guess.

[Mooky]

It's possible -- from what I saw and read, Cavill was badly burned by Warner Bros.' treatment of him, and because of that his career kind of stalled, and that could be the reason why he appears stand-offish in his media appearances. It's quite unfortunate because looks-wise Cavill is an almost perfect Superman, it's just that he had the misfortune of being directed by Zack Snyder in most of his film appearances where his talents and charm weren't properly utilized, if at all. It also didn't help that in his very first Superman movie his Superman did some very un-Superman things. As it is, Christopher Reeve's Superman remains the golden standard for the Big Screen Superman.

It's also possible that the one Reeve Superman movie you saw bits and pieces of was Superman III, and in that one he plays an evil version of himself. Reeve's Superman is otherwise celebrated for being very warm, friendly and kind.

[D82]

I had heard it being compared with Superman before, and it's true there are many similarities between both. Although, mythology and the superhero genre have a lot in common anyway. I've also seen the "A Whole New World" sequence in Aladdin being compared with the scene where Superman takes Lois with him and they fly around the Statue of Liberty and over the clouds.

I knew there was a reference to The Karate Kid in Hercules (the one below), but I didn't know the filmmakers were inspired by it or Rocky. I don't see many parallels with their stories, though, other than the training parts. Is that what was inspired by these films? By the way, curiously, both are by the same director, although most of the Rocky sequels were directed by Stallone himself.

[Mooky]

I had heard it being compared with Superman before, and it's true there are many similarities between both. Although, mythology and the superhero genre have a lot in common anyway.

Definitely, Greek/Roman myths were superhero tales of their time. Creating a connection between the two forms of storytelling is another reason why Hercules is more clever than often being given credit for. It's even more impressive because it happened before the whole superhero boom of the early aughts.

I knew there was a reference to The Karate Kid in Hercules (the one below), but I didn't know the filmmakers were inspired by it or Rocky. I don't see many parallels with their stories, though, other than the training parts. Is that what was inspired by these films?

Yes, training scenes in general (Rocky's more so than TKK's), as well as Phil's personality being similar to Mickey's from Rocky -- tough, short-tempered, curmudgeonly.

[D82]

Definitely, Greek/Roman myths were superhero tales of their time. Creating a connection between the two forms of storytelling is another reason why Hercules is more clever than often being given credit for. It's even more impressive because it happened before the whole superhero boom of the early aughts.

I agree, it was a clever idea.

Yes, training scenes in general (Rocky's more so than TKK's), as well as Phil's personality being similar to Mickey's from Rocky -- tough, short-tempered, curmudgeonly.

OK. Yeah, I guess you're right Phil is a bit like Mickey.

[blackcauldron85]

PHOTOS, VIDEO: Meeting the ‘Hercules’ Muses...During Disneyland After Dark: Pride Nite
https://wdwnt.com/2023/06/photos-video- ... ride-nite/

Perhaps the most sought-after meet-and-greet during Pride Nite is the rare appearance of the Muses...The Muses are in their pink gowns and feathered headdresses from the 1997 Hercules Victory Parade.