What's your religion?
Nominally, I consider myself to be Muslim, but certain things have made me grow apart from my religion. I'm not sure if I should even call myself a Muslim anymore. Even though I was never very religious to begin with, I do believe in God as a higher being, angels and fate, and I pray sometimes. However, I also trust my own instincts and make my own judgments, regardless of what my religion tells me. Blind faith is never good, we as humans have a need to question everything. If that makes me a non-believer or infidel in the eyes of (religious) folks, who cares? God will be my judge, not them.
Also, the whole concept of religion as an organized institution disgusts me. The whole set of rules, dos and don'ts... it's just tiring. And as much as some Muslims tend to take pride in Islam being superior to Judaism and Christianity for its lack of clergy (allowing a direct contact with God), it simply isn't true. There wouldn't be theocracies like Saudi Arabia and Iran otherwise. I'm just disillusioned with how every religion (not just Islam), despite being a positive thing in its core, is being manipulated for personal gain, provoking violence and persecution of others. I firmly believe religion should be a private thing between a person and God, and shouldn't be influenced by outside forces (like society), nor should religion be allowed to have influence on society in any way.
Still, I do have utmost respect for deeply religious people (particularly those who mind their own business) and the sheer amount of devotion and faith they put in their everyday life.
Btw, I really like this thread. It's fantastic reading people's thoughts about this matter.
Also, the whole concept of religion as an organized institution disgusts me. The whole set of rules, dos and don'ts... it's just tiring. And as much as some Muslims tend to take pride in Islam being superior to Judaism and Christianity for its lack of clergy (allowing a direct contact with God), it simply isn't true. There wouldn't be theocracies like Saudi Arabia and Iran otherwise. I'm just disillusioned with how every religion (not just Islam), despite being a positive thing in its core, is being manipulated for personal gain, provoking violence and persecution of others. I firmly believe religion should be a private thing between a person and God, and shouldn't be influenced by outside forces (like society), nor should religion be allowed to have influence on society in any way.
Still, I do have utmost respect for deeply religious people (particularly those who mind their own business) and the sheer amount of devotion and faith they put in their everyday life.
Btw, I really like this thread. It's fantastic reading people's thoughts about this matter.
- blackcauldron85
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I think that that's really, really cool, Crystal.Siren wrote: believe in Father Sky and Mother Earth. I believe in giving back to what you take. So if I take a
branch from a tree, I give the tree water in the exchange. When I eat meat, I don't only thank my Mother and Father,
but also the animal itself, for it is my Sister or Brother.
In some ways, that's how I feel, too.Simba3 wrote: believe in Jesus Christ, but not necessarily in all the ways that many people do. I believe in
evolution. For the most part, I really just consider myself a very spiritual person. I believe in things like karma,
fate, and destiny to a certain extent. Live and let live. PEACE AND LOVE
Wonderlicious wrote:If I were God, I'd send the homophobes in Christianity to hell, along with anyone else who
justifies their wickedness as being for the sake of Christianity (or any religion). That is truly using God's name
in vain, and is offensive not to God, but the whole world at large.

I'm a Christian, but that's a wide definition. I didn't grow up going to church, except for youth group at my
uncle's church sometimes. Religion was never really discussed in my home. My parents apparently are very open,
for lack of a better word, to other religions. Like, they don't believe in just one thing, maybe? Who was it that
told me all this? Some family member.
Even before I went to church (not including youth group), I would pray sometimes. If my daddy was on a business
trip, I'd pray for him to get home safely.
I go to church now. I started going in 2005- when we moved to Florida, I thought that it might be a nice thing to
try. The church I go to is small, with the average age probably being 28. There are 40 of us or less. I don't
agree with everything...mostly the mindset that it seems like some of them have, like if people do things a
different way, then they're not really a Christian.
To me, religion is a belief system. It's what people believe. How can you tell someone that what they believe is
wrong (I mean, obviously if someone believes that the sky is some crazy color, then, yeah, you can say that maybe they're
wrong...)? I'm very understanding, again, for lack of a better word, of people who believe in all different
religions. Whatever makes you happy and gets you through the day.
I don't believe in everything the Bible says. I haven't read the whole Bible or anything, but still. Like, it says
that widows can't remarry. WTF? So if you're 20 years old and your new husband dies in Iraq, that's it for you?
Even if you're 80 and your significant other dies, there should be nothing wrong with remarrying!!!
I don't believe in soulmates, so when people think you need to work through your marriage because God put you two
together...again, yeah, there are so many fish in the sea, that I don't agree with that.
I like to believe in God. As I said, it's nice to have something to believe in.
My church says that if you don't go to church, you're not a real Christian. I find that to be a crock of cheese.Disney's Divinity wrote:And, personally, I usually don't agree with the idea of Church, because I feel that every
individual has to decide for themselves what is righteous (either from the Bible or personal experience).
Seriously. People should be allowed to worship freely. And who gives a flying fish what other people think? It's
between you and God.
Disney's Divinity wrote: In the end, I think love of others is the ultimate rule, regardless of religion.

For me, most of the people I know in Florida are from church, so if I didn't go to church, I would be more alone
than I am now, in terms of friends here in Florida. And 99% of them are very conservative, which I very much am
not, so I don't agree with lots of things, in terms of their beliefs, and that definitely makes it hard. I often
think that this church isn't right for me. But I do like the people. I do feel like they're good people.
YES! I totally agree with you on the literal thing.Simba3 wrote:I believe in Jesus Christ - I believe that he existed, but I don't necessarily believe in ALL the
stories of the Bible, nor do I believe that the words of the Bible should be interpreted so literally.
I don't necessarily research it or pay much attention to it, but on the whole Creationism/Evolutionism thing: I lean
more towards the scientific proof, but at the same time, it's nice to believe in things. But, yeah, I definitely am
more of an Evolutionist than Creationist. I mean, I'm not saying that God didn't do the whole Creationism thing,
but I'm not sure. So I guess I'm a little Agnostic thinking on that one. Wikipedia says: "Another 37% believe that
"human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided this
process""...maybe that's what I believe.
Extremely well said.Siren wrote:Because in your HEART you know the TRUTH. It doesn't matter if you believe in one God or dozens, no
one can tell you otherwise. It doesn't matter science can say we came from one celled creatures who eventually
evolved into fish, and then into mammals, and then into us. You don't need that. You don't have to believe it,
because to believe it, may just break your heart. For some, they believe it, and you know what? That's all right
too. Because no matter what, whether you believe in Creationisim or Evolution, you still have to BELIEVE in
it.

I think that religion is a personal thing, a personal way of thinking, personal feelings and beliefs. Bobby has
gone head over heals in Lalaland. Like, he grew up in the Catholic Church and all, but like, he's gone to extremes,
much like some of the people in our church. He got his wisdom teeth out just over a week ago, and he wasn't feeling
well. Before bed, he asked me to "Pray to the Lord" (like, do it for him, since he wasn't feeling great)...before bed, he kneels on the bed and like bows down and
prays. When I pray, it's just silent, like thinking. And I said, "No", because it means nothing if I do it just
because he wants me to. Pray in your own way. I'm not saying this to be like, "Bobby, he's such a weirdo", but I
guess to illustrate that some people have it set that religion can only be done one way. I have an issue with that.
AMEN! I very much agree with you on that. I was confused about some things in the Bible, and asked a guy atChernabog_Rocks wrote:I find it hard to take the bible and follow it word for word like a lot of people do, simply
because it was written a very long time ago, by more than one person, and not everyone agrees on everything. So
aside from that I've heard from some people that the book does contradict itself in a few places, and I myself have
found a contradiction without having to read the bible. I had a friend who followed the bible word for word, I would
much rather follow what my heart says than follow a book.
church, and he said that things in the Old Testament, commands, didn't matter once Jesus came into the picture.
Like, I was offended (?) that the Old Testament said that females must rest when they have their periods and can't
do anything. That's messed up to me, but apparently it doesn't hold true anymore thanks to Jesus, but things like
that, and the previously mentioned widow thing...there are things in there that I just can't agree with. We're
given free will for a reason, so I feel that I can disagree with things and hopefully God is fine with it. And if
He's not, well, that's just how I feel, and I can't help how I feel.
I mentioned earlier about the conservatives at my church. I know that most of them think that other religions
aren't the right way and that being gay is wrong and whatever, and I very much disagree with that. I'm very much
for equal opportunity and treating people the way you want to be treated. Jesus hung out with prostitutes and tax
collectors (that always is funny to me, the tax collector part, but whatever), and he loved them. Jesus loves all
of us. So stop being all high and mighty and saying that he doesn't love all of us. Your sins, or not sins, are
between you and God. I feel strongly on this and HATE when people meddle into other people's lives, thinking that
they're helping them, when really they're just being selfish and ignorant. I get that you don't agree with that
lifestyle, but at the same time, as people said here, live and let live. If you don't agree with homosexuality,
great, don't be a homosexual, but let alone people who are just living their lives, not harming anyone.
Disney Duster wrote:So, yea, God gave me a heart. And a brain. And people have done things to the Bible. I'm
going to use my God-given heart and brain, because, after all, that's what I feel God with, I should use that to. I
don't just believe because others tell me to.

Yes! When I hear about what a "Godly" wife is supposed to be, ugh, it bothers me. We're all different. I don'tLazario, from the thread that Julian made wrote:or that a woman's job is to only take care of her husband and
kids, even to the point where she practically neglects and abuses herself, not leaving any time for herself. I do
know people here are smart enough not to believe that themselves, but many preachers still preach that way, and the
books they read from still say those things.
wait on my husband hand and foot. Heck, I'm the woman, I'm supposed to be waited on hand and foot. (I kid, I
kid...) We're all different and unique and do things our own way. Just because you're not the kind of wife the
Bible says you're supposed to be doesn't mean that you're a bad wife.
And about sex. Let's talk about sex, baby. When I was a teenager, before I ever did it, I wasn't sure how I felt
about premarital sex, for me. I didn't care if others did it, but I didn't know my thoughts on it. I knew that the
Bible said it was wrong (I assume I knew this), but it didn't so much play a part for me in terms of if I cared what
the Bible said, but more of a, Am I a good person, I guess? (Changing subjects quickly, I think that, overall, the
Bible calls for us to be good people and treat each other how we want to be treated. The Golden Rule. I think
that, overall, that's the main emphasis of the Bible, as some on here pretty much pointed out). I think that, yes,
bad things can happen if you have premarital sex, but God forgives us of our sins. I mean, God created our
hormones, right? I mean, unless He wants us all to overcome our desires, but then why give us desires in the first
place? I mean, as long as you're not screwing someone else's husband or wife, all is good. I mean, in terms of
punishment, there are STD's: is that God punishing us for premarital sex, or is it just science? With me, I guess
there's an underlying sense of Science vs. nonscience.
And just because someone goes to church doesn't make them all perfect. There are plenty of people who go to church
who engage in premarital sex and drugs and all afterward...I mean, there are so many classifications to each
religion, I think, and so many people who participate in these religions...you can't just have one overarching
classification and stick everyone who says they belong to a certain religion under it.
I don't necessarily have an answer to that, but I find it fascinating that you thought of that (you meaning that aAladdin from Agrabah, from the thread that Julian made wrote:I agree with you in most of your points, and I agree
that love is never a sin but what happens when an adult tells you that he's in love with a 7-year old boy? Is that
love or is that a psychological sickness called pederasty? So love is not a sin, but the question is what do we call
love??? Maybe many more meanings are hiding behind the thing we so easily call love. Maybe things are a LOT more
more more complicated.
person thought of that). I mean, there are all sorts of types of "love". The love you feel for your parents is
probably different from what you feel for your friends, and your neighbors, and your coworkers, and the little kid
across the street. I mean, if someone wants a relationship relationship, like significant other relationship, with
a 7 year old, then in my mind, that's a little messed up. Unless that person has the mental capacity of a 7 year
old or something. Most people are interested in people who they are on par with mentally and physically and all
that, to an extent. I'm not wording it well, but you probably know what I mean...
I agree with you. As I said earlier (or did I?), people in my church feel that you're not a true Christian if youLoomis, from the thread that Julian made wrote:if god is everywhere, why do I have to go to church? etc
don't go to church, but I think it's between you and God. I really do believe that. Worship freely, however you
want to. It's not about the other people. My church is all about community, how in the Bible the Church body did
everything together. Community is nice, yes, you know, getting along with people and such, but at the same time,
don't be telling people how to worship their God. It gets on my nerves to hear people be like, "this is our way and
our way is the only way". That's bull!
Escapay, from the thread that Julian made wrote:The Bible itself, while being a very inspirational book, was
written during a time when women were subservient to men, religion was practically a requirement, and by people
under the belief that one God was superior to others, and thus, those who believe in a certain God was superior to
those who don't. I don't put much stock in the Bible except in common sense passages (i.e. The Ten Commandments, The
Beatitudes, etc.) and parables with life lessons. It takes a lot of faith to actually believe that everything in the
bible is true, and I prefer to think of the books and stories in the bible as...well as a stylized view of Biblical
times. It's not necessarily 100% true, but there are elements of truth within the stories.
It makes sense that people shouldn't kill other people, and it's normally a belief in every religious sect.
It makes sense that honesty is better than lies and deception. I have yet to come across a religion that says "It's
okay to lie so long as the lie doesn't hurt someone".
It makes sense that we should appreciate, respect, and love whatever Higher Being created the universe and gave us
Life. But we shouldn't fear them, we shouldn't use them as a crutch. We shouldn't use the Higher Being as a reason
why Catholic Joe goes to Heaven and Hindu Bob doesn't.

I'm anti-abortion (I'm a liberal person, but this is my one conservative stance, I guess). I don't think that itEscapay, from the thread that Julian made wrote:I'm against abortion, for the simple fact that life is life, and
taking life is a sin (and yet I eat meat...so I guess I'm a hypocritical Catholic like everyone says we are...)
I'm against contraception because I believe sex is a sacred and passionate act of love that should be shared between
two people who are mature enough and willing enough to own up to the consequences (pregnancy).
should be used as a birth control method. Don't be lazy...use a condom or the Pill. Or both. Be safe. There are
a lot of people who can't have their own child, or who just want to adopt, who could adopt the baby. Yes, I know,
orphanages, yadda yadda yadda, but that's for another discussion.
As for conception, as I said, use condoms, use the Pill, be protected. I think that people are just horndogs
sometimes, but God made us that way, right?!? Also, just FYI, some people need contraception to function normally.
I'm an honest person, heck, I'll say it. I have an irregular period. Even on the Pill, it is still irregular. But
at least I can function a bit normally and almost know when it's coming thanks to the Pill. I know what you were
saying about contraception, and even though I don't agree, I respect that, but I'm just saying...there are other
uses for contraception.

Lazario, from the thread that Julian made wrote:The absolute most hypocritical view related to abortion is that
taking a human life is any worse or more serious than that of an animal. Especially since humans cause the most
damage / bring on the most destruction, and therefore, are a much higher threat to the environment via
overpopulation. But when animals overpopulate, it's okay to hunt, shoot, and kill them. I have already completely
come to terms with my view on eating meat. It's a tradition with people who like meat, the meat I eat doesn't
necessarily have to come from an overpopulated species or area of land. So when a human embryo is aborted, there is
no cause for me to say - wait, ho - hey, that's not okay, that's much worse than shooting an animal with survival
skills and a working-sense of it's own instinctive behaviors. That's why overall, I consider the termination of
embryos and fetai (spell?) to be a private matter. If it wasn't the mother's decision, via- miscarriage, it's sad or
tragic. But still, no one should take the right away from the woman, for any reason. That is one of life's most
basic, elemental truths. Since we can't vote on forcing men to have or not have vasectomies, we can't force women to
not have abortions. It's as simple as that - you don't want someone telling you what you have to do with your body.
And that right can never EVER be taken away. No argument, no discussion - period. And no pro-life anything can mess
with that. Some things must always be considered on some level sacred. This is that.

do the deed, be prepared for consequences (but I do believe in contraception), and I think you should give the kid a
chance for life. The kid has no say, and that sucks. At the same time, I do eat meat. I LOVE animals, and
sometimes it's hard for me to think that I'm eating a poor, defenseless animal who had no say. And that makes me
sad. But the health benefits of meat are something that I need...that sounds weird, but if I'm living on pasta for
a few days, I feel undernourished, and I will need to eat some meat. It just makes me feel better and can function
more properly. So it's definitely like a hypocritical thing to say, but that's how I feel. I feel bad about it,
but my body kind of needs it to function properly, I feel.
I agree. God made us sexual beings, and so how is it wrong, as long as you're concentual about it? ProtectLazario, from the thread that Julian made wrote:Some people just like sex, there's no problem with that. Period.
Even if that sounds a little cold. I still happen to think sex is a warm and celebratory thing. And some people are
slutty but still very good, smart, and decent people.
yourself, be smart about it, but it's a normal, natural thing. You don't have to be in love to have sex, and you
can be in love and not be married. I'm not from the Swinging '60s or anything, and I find Swingers to be gross, but
at the same time, I don't feel that it's wrong if you are ready for sex and you're not married to that person. Just
like, if you are married and choose not to have sex; the Bible says that a wife needs to give up her body to her
husband, and vice versa. This is something that I have issues with, which I won't get into, but I'm sure you can
add 2 and 2. I feel that each relationship is its own thing, and married, not married, acquaintances...do what
you're going to do, be smart about it.
That's pretty much how I feel. Well said. But, there are exceptions to every rule; if a lady would surely die inDisney Duster, from the thread that Julian made wrote:So, I'm guessing you don't believe a fetus is a living
person that should not be killed, either? It's true that a woman has a right to do what she wants with her
body...but I believe that once she has a fetus inside her, that fetus is a person, and even though having the baby
will stretch out the place on a woman's body that a baby comes out of, that's about it, other than getting fat and
possibly getting stretchmarks from being pregnant. But I believe the fetus is a person, and it shouldn't be killed
because it is a person. A woman has rights, but the right to LIVE overrides the right to SPARE YOURSELF OF A FAT
BELLY.
childbirth, and abortion would save her, then I feel that that's in the best interest of the lady. As for rape,
I've never made a decision on that. And then there's the issue of kids giving birth to kids. If someone is raped
or a young girl gets pregnant, I think that a mental evaluation might be the best guage of whether or not she should
have an abortion. That's the best I have, in terms of my ideas on that subject.
PatrickvD, from the thread that Julian made wrote:I do believe in God. I believe in a God who gave us the common
sense to tell right from wrong. I don't need books, churches, popes, you name it to tell me how I live my life. I
know what I do wrong and what I do right. I live my life everyday trying to do what is right. I believe that's what
matters.
And when I look at all the religions, I feel it all comes down to that very thing. The bible is filled with rich
stories from wich we can learn, but there's some ugly pages that put me off BIG time. That's why I decide for myself
what to believe in and what not to believe in.

what you believe to your own life. Don't bother with what you feel doesn't apply...not in a, "Not murdering people
doesn't apply to my life, so I'm going to kill everyone!"...of course that's not what I meant. I meant, for
example, if someone thinks, "I believe in a woman's right to choose, but I still believe in loving one another and I
love God". That's taking what you believe the Bible (or Qoran (sp?) or whatever book you use) and seeing what you
believe in and then applying those beliefs into your life.
DaveWadding, from the thread that Julian made wrote:Give me a f**king break. Our forefathers came here to have
freedom from the oppresion of having their religion chosen for them. Something you seem to be pushing for pretty
hard. If Laz or anyone else chooses not to believe what you believe, leave them alone for Christ's sake. THAT IS WHY
OUR FOREFATHERS FOUNDED AMERICA, to be free to believe what they CHOOSE TO BELIEVE and NOT BE HARASSED ABOUT
IT.

That's definitely something that I agree with. Good example using the Tsunami, too, since it's not something that2099net, from the thread that Julian made wrote:Was the Boxing Day Tsunami a result of man's folly? About a
quarter of a million people died - for no good reason. There was no divine lesson to be learned, no inspirational
bookend to the suffering of those who survived without family and friends. No ultimate truth for those left without
homes or possessions. Like I said, I don't believe in any God, but if there is a God, I can see no sane or rational
reason for him allowing such tragedy to exist.
humans have any control over. Why would He cause all this suffering if no good comes out of it? I don't have the
answer, but I do think about it sometimes.
The beauty of believing, of believing anything, like the Santa Claus analogy that Siren posted, is that it's YOUR
belief system. It's what YOU believe in. Don't just believe in something because someone else wants you to.
Search your heart, search your soul, and find what you believe in and be firm in what you believe- don't say you
don't believe in what you do just because someone else disagrees with you and wants you to be a certain way.
I never understood the whole "Fear God" thing. God loves us. God is our father, yes, depending on what you
believe? Why would you want to be your father? I mean, we have free will- we shouldn't be totally submissive to
anyone! Anyone! God loves us. My dad loves me. If I had reason to fear him, then I wouldn't love him much, and I
would think that he didn't love me much. I get that we're supposed to praise God for creating us, and I do, in my
own way, but at the same time, we didn't ask to be created. Saying that, of course I am grateful that I am here,
life is exciting and a learning experience. But at the same time, how much do we owe God?
[quote-"Disney-Fan, fromteh thread that Julian made"] find it difficult to be asked to believe in a being that lets
chaos rule and denies his own "children" of any kind of help.[/quote]
This goes along with the Tsumani statement. It's something that I think is important to mention. For
non-weather-type things, like hunger...I still partially agree with you, but maybe the lesson is, we all need to
band together as people and help each other out? Which is hard. My friend was just saying yesterday that once he
was downtown and he had in his hand leftovers from a nice birthday meal. He came across a homeless man who said
that he was hungry. My friend gave the man the leftover food (it was teriyaki salmon). Instead of being grateful,
the homeless man opened up the box, stuck his finger in it, and said "what the hell is this?!?" and put it up on a
ledge. My friend was out his meal (and half of the money he paid for the meal), and the homeless man still had no
food. It's hard to be helpful to people when so many people either a) don't help themselves, or b) don't let others
help them. Ugh. It bothers me. I do a lot of volunteer work, and it's organized, so like, I know I'm helping out
a good cause. But when you try to do good outside of an organized event or whatever, it gets hard, since humanity
kind of sucks. Not every member of humanity, but a great deal.

As I said earlier, Jesus loves everyone. So it bothers me when people do as you say, are using the Bible as aWonderlicious, from the thread that Julian made wrote:Many people are using the Bible as a weapon and believing
that they're right. And I'm affraid to say that in the USA, from what I've read/seen, this is happening a
lot.
weapon. I have a friend who is a lesbian and who goes to our church. She's not a Christian, but she's not an
athiest- she's not sure where she stands. She said to me a few months ago when we were hanging out that she might
get kicked out of the church if she brought a girlfriend. I talked with another friend about this, who is actually
roomates with her, and he said that he isn't sure how true that is, that she can't be sure about that. But, one of
our friends got married, and she brought a girl. I said hi, but didn't have time to talk about it with her, but I
was so proud of her for doing what she feels, bringing whoever she wanted to bring to the wedding. I haven't talked
with her about it, but the next time we hang out, I need to bring up how proud I was/am of her staying true to
herself. I have no idea about the girl she brought, if she was a friend or more, but Jesus loves us all, no matter
if we sin. Because of Jesus, our sins are forgiven. I don't think that homosexuality is a sin, but for those who
do, leave other people alone about it, because Jesus will forgive the sin. It's not ike homosexuality = axe
murdering.

I completely agree. Yet another well-said post!Escapay, from the thread that Julian made wrote:God still gave man Free Will in order that they make choices
*they* believe is right. He loves people, regardless if they believe in him or not. I don't force my beliefs on
anyone else and I don't like it when I see people force their beliefs on others (be it "Believe in God or you'll
burn in hell!!!" or "Aw come on, just read the Bible and you'll open your eyes to a wonderful world!"), because if
anything, belief and faith must be something someone finds by his or herself.
That's a really good point, one that I've heard before but forget about.Disney Duster, from the thread that Julian made wrote:To those who say they don't beleive in God just because the
world has chaos that isn't created by free-will and humans, consider that God is trying to see if people will start
hating him just because bad things happen to them. It's like the story of Job. The devil told God that Job, who
loved God dearly, would no longer love him if he had a horrible life. God took away Job's wife and children, and
made other terrible things happen to Job, but Job still loved God. I suppose this could be viewed as cruel. But
because Job continued to love God, the other parts of the Bible teach that he would have had a very good place in
heaven, making up for everything. Wouldn't you be okay with being hurt as long as you got a just reward that
exceeded the pain you endured? You earn your place in Heaven.
On the opposite spectrum, but, again, I agree with this just as much as I agree with Disney Duster's post. I guess2099net, from the thread that Julian made wrote:Yep, I'm sure all those people in Africa likely to die in the
next 50 years, or at the best have to endure decades of suffering - THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN are happy as
campers that everything will be different in Heaven. Same with the various victims of Earthquakes, Tsunamis or
floods
As for having to earn a place in heaven, what do most people in the priviledged West have to do to earn a place?
Give a few dollars/pounds to charity every year? Buy FairTrade goods? Just think about the less well off every now
and then?
Sorry, but no argument on potential status in an (unlikely) afterlife is going to win an argument about mankind's
suffering at the hands of God (if God exists) with me.
I have different, contradicting (?) beliefs on the subject of why God allows suffering to his beloved children.
I think that the point of a thread like this, or any discussion thread/debate, really, is to express how you feel,Enchantress, from the thread that Julian made wrote:As far as I'm concerned, my opinion doesn't affect anyone
else, and why should it? I have my own views on religion, but I'm not going to rubbish it infront of any of it's
followers, because It wont achieve anything but disgruntled members, and what is the point in that?
get to know how the other people think, and read things that make you think.
Fflewduur from the thread that Julian made wrote:By the way, Democrats can be Christian, too (no matter what Ann
Coulter says). And Christians can believe in climate change caused by humanity, so let's not pretend we can
accomplish anything by making grand monolithic generalizations---especially stupid ones---shall we? I for one am
glad that more clergy are taking the approach that we have done a poor job with our stewardship of this planet.
Whatever you believe about global warming, I find it difficult to believe the Creator can look without disapproval
upon what we've done with the Earth.

I don't even know necessarily what it pertains to in this discussion, but: adoption. If and when I have kids, I'd
rather adopt then birth my own. Part of it is that there are so many kids out there who need homes. I feel the
same way about animals. And part of it is, I'm not too fond of babies and kids (although 2 of my friends have
babies...I mean, I have other friends who have kids, but these are young babies, not a year old yet), and they are
well-behaved, nice kids. Still, babies and toddlers aren't my thing. I'd rather adopt an 8 year old or older.
Easier to deal with, and the older kids have a harder time getting adopted. Again, I feel the same way about
adopting animals...I'd rather (and I have) adopt older dogs who need homes. The puppies will have no problems
getting adopted in most instances. And older dogs are easier to handle.
On the same topic, last year (?), Bobby, myself, and a couple other couples from church attended a Christian
marraige conference. I don't like Christian conferences (I don't know if I had been to any other, though, at that
point), and I was extremely negative. And I still think that it was kind of pointless, at least for me. We have
been doing date night every other week, though. Yay, food. And I don't remember what the topic was, something
about kids, and I asked my pastor's wife about adoption, if adoption is wrong, not giving birth to your own kid, and
she said no. I don't remember really what we said, or why I'm bringing this up. Maybe because it goes with the
contraception discussion? I mean, if you don't want to birth your own child naturally, should you not have sex? I
guess I'm asking more for those of you who are anti-contraception. Should you be denied having sex just because you
choose to adopt a child in need?
If you get to reading this, do you mind writing what the show said that made you think twice for a while? Please2099net, from the thread that Julian made wrote:It's ironic, but nobody in the church who I have heard who have
addressed the issue of God and suffering has come remotely close to convincing me. But the TV series Joan of Arcadia
did make some pretty good points and arguments which maybe made be thing twice for a while.
and thank you!
Very interesting. That's definitely something to ponder. I think that it makes a lot of sense!slave2moonlight, from the thread that Julian made wrote:I don't believe God physically interferes in our lives.
Now, I'm talking "physically" here. If he did, we wouldn't have free will. That's all there is to it. I truly
believe it is our souls that God is concerned with. If we have a car accident or decide to go on a shooting spree,
it's our own fault. If we aren't allowed to make our own mistakes and learn our own lessons, we're just robots,
which I do not believe is what God wants. We're here to learn to be better people. This world is like a big test.
The Bible is like the book we have to study to pass the test, particularly with emulating Jesus Christ in mind. But
that's just what I believe.
Extremely good points. The Holy Trinity confuses me...I mean, I've had it explained to me, but I don't quite getPrincessmarlo, from the thread that Julian made wrote:I am also not the biggest fan of the Christian religion.
I'll tell you why
Most Christians believe that Jesus is God, which I personally disagree with.
I also find it hard to understand why a Christian is Christian when they believe that Jesus is God and if they
believe he is God since he was a Jew why aren't they then Jewish.
A lot of the religion to me is very hypocritical.
how Jesus IS God. Maybe I think of the Holy Spirit being sort of like a conscience, though...?
I think that that's amazingly excellent advice/ excellent mindset. Do what you feel is right. You can be guided byMooky wrote:However, I also trust my own instincts and make my own judgments, regardless of what my religion
tells me.
other people (like your parents, for example), or things (like the Bible, for example), but when it comes down to
it, you need to use your free will and do things the way you think they should be done. It's your life, live it!
I agree! I just spend who knows how long reading all the posts in this thread and in the one Julian made that heMooky wrote:Btw, I really like this thread. And I wrote a novel to prove it.It's fantastic reading
people's thoughts about this matter.
posted the link to. I love getting to know people, and it's great to learn how people think.
(And sorry for the formatting; usually I'll take the time to make a post I typed in Notepad look better, but this is just too long to do so!)

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I'm a Roman Catholic, but I don't really agree with everything they teach us. I don't go to church every sunday, but I used to altar serve. (Up until this year, actually.)
I definitely do not think that you need to be in church every Sunday to have a strong relationship with God, Jesus Christ, etc. What about the elderly who can't make it to church, because they are too weak, poor, unhealthy, etc. Should they be thought of as sinners because it's easier for them to pray in their own home/nursing home/hospital than going all the way to church? Certainly not.
Just like everyone has different preferences for what to eat, how to dress, what to buy... they have different preferences for how to pray. Whether it be kneeling along a bed, in a pew at church, or in private, let them do it their way. It's not affecting you, so why should you let it? I, myself, prefer to do it as Amy said: Like a thought. I usually do not pray aloud, but inside my head.
I am not afraid to admit that I can find church to be boring. Why do I need to listen to a 30-45 minute serman when I usually do not get anything out of it, anyway? I go to church on Christmas (Eve), Easter Sunday, and all other holidays (Mother/Father's Day, etc.) because for me, it's tradition. Sure, a lot of people I know don't do that, and I don't care.
My church is actually not bad at all. I know of a lot of churches that don't celebrate Halloween. My priest actually hands out candy to Trick-or-Treaters on Halloween Night.
I also am open to other religions. I was interested in some other ones, and enjoyed researching about them, but I'm pretty sure I'll remain a Christian. In fact, a lot of my friends are Athiest, and it honestly does not faze me at all. I'm not friends with them because of their religion. I'm friends with them because they're trustworthy, honest, and good people.
I know of a person that does drugs, yet goes to church every Sunday. That's almost like an oxymoron, in some people's eyes. Does God condemn him/her because he/she does drugs? I don't think so.
So, that said, religion is just like anything else of a person. Obviously what you believe in is more important than most material items, but still. You shouldn't judge a person on what they believe in (so long as it doesn't break any laws, etc.), but on what kind of a person they are.
I definitely do not think that you need to be in church every Sunday to have a strong relationship with God, Jesus Christ, etc. What about the elderly who can't make it to church, because they are too weak, poor, unhealthy, etc. Should they be thought of as sinners because it's easier for them to pray in their own home/nursing home/hospital than going all the way to church? Certainly not.
Just like everyone has different preferences for what to eat, how to dress, what to buy... they have different preferences for how to pray. Whether it be kneeling along a bed, in a pew at church, or in private, let them do it their way. It's not affecting you, so why should you let it? I, myself, prefer to do it as Amy said: Like a thought. I usually do not pray aloud, but inside my head.
I am not afraid to admit that I can find church to be boring. Why do I need to listen to a 30-45 minute serman when I usually do not get anything out of it, anyway? I go to church on Christmas (Eve), Easter Sunday, and all other holidays (Mother/Father's Day, etc.) because for me, it's tradition. Sure, a lot of people I know don't do that, and I don't care.
My church is actually not bad at all. I know of a lot of churches that don't celebrate Halloween. My priest actually hands out candy to Trick-or-Treaters on Halloween Night.
I also am open to other religions. I was interested in some other ones, and enjoyed researching about them, but I'm pretty sure I'll remain a Christian. In fact, a lot of my friends are Athiest, and it honestly does not faze me at all. I'm not friends with them because of their religion. I'm friends with them because they're trustworthy, honest, and good people.
I know of a person that does drugs, yet goes to church every Sunday. That's almost like an oxymoron, in some people's eyes. Does God condemn him/her because he/she does drugs? I don't think so.
So, that said, religion is just like anything else of a person. Obviously what you believe in is more important than most material items, but still. You shouldn't judge a person on what they believe in (so long as it doesn't break any laws, etc.), but on what kind of a person they are.
Hmmm.... I must have missed that opinion poll. Can you show me where it says that a majority of Americans are in agreement with Leia's beliefs about homosexuality?a-net-fan wrote:I want to thank Princess Leia for sharing her thoughts on here and being honest and genuine. Dispite what JiminyCrick91 had to say, you didnt say anything wrong. Actually in the US anyway she represents the opinion of the majority of people in this country.
Oh, and please remember that the majority of people have been wrong about a lot of things in the past. If we always followed 'the majority', I doubt we would have ever made progress as a society. There are always 'leaders', people who are ahead of the majority, and they are much needed in making society better. And once that's done, the majority will follow sooner or later.
I hear that from a lot of people, that somehow religion is good at its core, but it's being hijacked by people who wish to abuse it for bad or even evil things. It's my belief that that is exactly why religion has been invented: as a rationale for a lot of bad acts. Religion has been and continues to be used as an excuse for everything: excluding people, denying groups of people their rights, wars, power abuse etc. The list goes on and on. And, be it in distant history or nowadays, a lot of people put up with it and accept it or even support it because "their religion" (or their Pope, priest, rabbi or mullah) says so.Mooky wrote:I'm just disillusioned with how every religion (not just Islam), despite being a positive thing in its core, is being manipulated for personal gain, provoking violence and persecution of others. I firmly believe religion should be a private thing between a person and God, and shouldn't be influenced by outside forces (like society), nor should religion be allowed to have influence on society in any way.
Religion, in my opinion, has been invented to control people, to keep them in line, to exercise power over them. Farao's, emperors and kings have made their positions of absolute, unquestionable power legitimate because they said God put that power upon them, or that they actually were (sons of) God(s). And nowadays, theocracies like Saudi-Arabia and Iran are being run by the clergy, who get their power from... God. And in the US, a politician has to be very religious or he won't even get elected.
I'd like to know what those 8 rules are.Widdi wrote:I found the words of wisdom such as the eight "I'd Really Rather You Didn'ts" more useful and true to a happy life than things like "The Ten Commandments".
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Ha, that's funny, my church says you're an affront to God.Princess Leia wrote:The Methodist Leadership wants to recognize homosexuality! That's an affront to God.
"Ta ta ta taaaa! Look at me... I'm a snowman! I'm gonna go stand on someone's lawn if I don't get something to do around here pretty soon!"
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The Eight "I'd Really Rather You Didn'ts"Goliath wrote:I'd like to know what those 8 rules are.Widdi wrote:I found the words of wisdom such as the eight "I'd Really Rather You Didn'ts" more useful and true to a happy life than things like "The Ten Commandments".
1. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Act Like a Sanctimonious Holier-Than-Thou Ass When Describing My Noodly Goodness. If Some People Don't Believe In Me, That's Okay. Really, I'm Not That Vain. Besides, This Isn't About Them So Don't Change The Subject.
2. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Use My Existence As A Means To Oppress, Subjugate, Punish, Eviscerate, And/Or, You Know, Be Mean To Others. I Don't Require Sacrifices, And Purity Is For Drinking Water, Not People.
3. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Judge People For The Way They Look, Or How They Dress, Or The Way They Talk, Or, Well, Just Play Nice, Okay? Oh, And Get This In Your Thick Heads: Woman = Person. Man = Person. Samey = Samey. One Is Not Better Than The Other, Unless We're Talking About Fashion And I'm Sorry, But I Gave That To Women And Some Guys Who Know The Difference Between Teal and Fuchsia.
4. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Indulge In Conduct That Offends Yourself, Or Your Willing, Consenting Partner Of Legal Age AND Mental Maturity. As For Anyone Who Might Object, I Think The Expression Is Go F*** Yourself, Unless They Find That Offensive In Which Case They Can Turn Off the TV For Once And Go For A Walk For A Change.
5. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Challenge The Bigoted, Misogynist, Hateful Ideas Of Others On An Empty Stomach. Eat, Then Go After The B******.
6. 6. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Build Multimillion-Dollar Churches/Temples/Mosques/Shrines To My Noodly Goodness When The Money Could Be Better Spent (Take Your Pick):
1. Ending Poverty
2. Curing Diseases
3. Living In Peace, Loving With Passion, And Lowering The Cost Of Cable
I Might be a Complex-Carbohydrate Omniscient Being, But I Enjoy The Simple Things In Life. I Ought To Know. I AM the Creator.
7. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Go Around Telling People I Talk To You. You're Not That Interesting. Get Over Yourself. And I Told You To Love Your Fellow Man, Can't You Take A Hint?
8. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You If You Are Into, Um, Stuff That Uses A Lot Of Leather/Lubricant/Las Vegas. If The Other Person Is Into It, However (Pursuant To #4), Then Have At It, Take Pictures, And For The Love Of Mike, Wear a CONDOM! Honestly, It's A Piece Of Rubber. If I Didn't Want It To Feel Good When You Did IT I Would Have Added Spikes, Or Something.
And that is what I believe in.
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Isn't it weird how few of us claim to be straight Catholic, or Protestant, or Muslim, etc.? It seems we've all come to question the beliefs we were brought up in, including me - and I've grown up in a highly Catholic and religiously conservative country, with 95% of the population being Catholics.
And also with many prejudiced people who still can't quite come to terms with black people or Islam. I don't know if the rest of Europe is suffering from this "disease" but I certainly think it is very strongly felt here. And it disgusts me.
And also with many prejudiced people who still can't quite come to terms with black people or Islam. I don't know if the rest of Europe is suffering from this "disease" but I certainly think it is very strongly felt here. And it disgusts me.
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[quote="Goliath"][quote="a-net-fan"]I want to thank Princess Leia for sharing her thoughts on here and being honest and genuine. Dispite what JiminyCrick91 had to say, you didnt say anything wrong. Actually in the US anyway she represents the opinion of the majority of people in this country.[/quote]
Hmmm.... I must have missed that opinion poll. Can you show me where it says that a majority of Americans are in agreement with Leia's beliefs about homosexuality?
Oh, and please remember that the majority of people have been wrong about a lot of things in the past. If we always followed 'the majority', I doubt we would have ever made progress as a society. There are always 'leaders', people who are ahead of the majority, and they are much needed in making society better. And once that's done, the majority will follow sooner or later.
[quote="Mooky"]I'm just disillusioned with how every religion (not just Islam), despite being a positive thing in its core, is being manipulated for personal gain, provoking violence and persecution of [i]others[/i]. I firmly believe religion should be a private thing between a person and God, and shouldn't be influenced by outside forces (like society), nor should religion be allowed to have influence on society in any way.[/quote]
I hear that from a lot of people, that somehow religion is good at its core, but it's being hijacked by people who wish to abuse it for bad or even evil things. It's my belief that [i]that[/i] is exactly why religion has been invented: as a rationale for a lot of bad acts. Religion has been and continues to be used as an excuse for everything: excluding people, denying groups of people their rights, wars, power abuse etc. The list goes on and on. And, be it in distant history or nowadays, a lot of people put up with it and accept it or even support it because "their religion" (or their Pope, priest, rabbi or mullah) says so.
Religion, in my opinion, has been [i]invented[/i] to control people, to keep them in line, to exercise power over them. Farao's, emperors and kings have made their positions of absolute, unquestionable power legitimate because they said God put that power upon them, or that they actually were (sons of) God(s). And nowadays, theocracies like Saudi-Arabia and Iran are being run by the clergy, who get their power from... God. And in the US, a politician has to be very religious or he won't even get elected.
[quote="Widdi"]I found the words of wisdom such as the eight "I'd Really Rather You Didn'ts" more useful and true to a happy life than things like "The Ten Commandments".[/quote]
I'd like to know what those 8 rules are.[/quote]
We all have our opinions. I have mine: you have yours.
Hmmm.... I must have missed that opinion poll. Can you show me where it says that a majority of Americans are in agreement with Leia's beliefs about homosexuality?
Oh, and please remember that the majority of people have been wrong about a lot of things in the past. If we always followed 'the majority', I doubt we would have ever made progress as a society. There are always 'leaders', people who are ahead of the majority, and they are much needed in making society better. And once that's done, the majority will follow sooner or later.
[quote="Mooky"]I'm just disillusioned with how every religion (not just Islam), despite being a positive thing in its core, is being manipulated for personal gain, provoking violence and persecution of [i]others[/i]. I firmly believe religion should be a private thing between a person and God, and shouldn't be influenced by outside forces (like society), nor should religion be allowed to have influence on society in any way.[/quote]
I hear that from a lot of people, that somehow religion is good at its core, but it's being hijacked by people who wish to abuse it for bad or even evil things. It's my belief that [i]that[/i] is exactly why religion has been invented: as a rationale for a lot of bad acts. Religion has been and continues to be used as an excuse for everything: excluding people, denying groups of people their rights, wars, power abuse etc. The list goes on and on. And, be it in distant history or nowadays, a lot of people put up with it and accept it or even support it because "their religion" (or their Pope, priest, rabbi or mullah) says so.
Religion, in my opinion, has been [i]invented[/i] to control people, to keep them in line, to exercise power over them. Farao's, emperors and kings have made their positions of absolute, unquestionable power legitimate because they said God put that power upon them, or that they actually were (sons of) God(s). And nowadays, theocracies like Saudi-Arabia and Iran are being run by the clergy, who get their power from... God. And in the US, a politician has to be very religious or he won't even get elected.
[quote="Widdi"]I found the words of wisdom such as the eight "I'd Really Rather You Didn'ts" more useful and true to a happy life than things like "The Ten Commandments".[/quote]
I'd like to know what those 8 rules are.[/quote]
We all have our opinions. I have mine: you have yours.
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[quote="Goliath"][quote="a-net-fan"]I want to thank Princess Leia for sharing her thoughts on here and being honest and genuine. Dispite what JiminyCrick91 had to say, you didnt say anything wrong. Actually in the US anyway she represents the opinion of the majority of people in this country.[/quote]
Hmmm.... I must have missed that opinion poll. Can you show me where it says that a majority of Americans are in agreement with Leia's beliefs about homosexuality?
Oh, and please remember that the majority of people have been wrong about a lot of things in the past. If we always followed 'the majority', I doubt we would have ever made progress as a society. There are always 'leaders', people who are ahead of the majority, and they are much needed in making society better. And once that's done, the majority will follow sooner or later.
[quote="Mooky"]I'm just disillusioned with how every religion (not just Islam), despite being a positive thing in its core, is being manipulated for personal gain, provoking violence and persecution of [i]others[/i]. I firmly believe religion should be a private thing between a person and God, and shouldn't be influenced by outside forces (like society), nor should religion be allowed to have influence on society in any way.[/quote]
I hear that from a lot of people, that somehow religion is good at its core, but it's being hijacked by people who wish to abuse it for bad or even evil things. It's my belief that [i]that[/i] is exactly why religion has been invented: as a rationale for a lot of bad acts. Religion has been and continues to be used as an excuse for everything: excluding people, denying groups of people their rights, wars, power abuse etc. The list goes on and on. And, be it in distant history or nowadays, a lot of people put up with it and accept it or even support it because "their religion" (or their Pope, priest, rabbi or mullah) says so.
Religion, in my opinion, has been [i]invented[/i] to control people, to keep them in line, to exercise power over them. Farao's, emperors and kings have made their positions of absolute, unquestionable power legitimate because they said God put that power upon them, or that they actually were (sons of) God(s). And nowadays, theocracies like Saudi-Arabia and Iran are being run by the clergy, who get their power from... God. And in the US, a politician has to be very religious or he won't even get elected.
[quote="Widdi"]I found the words of wisdom such as the eight "I'd Really Rather You Didn'ts" more useful and true to a happy life than things like "The Ten Commandments".[/quote]
I'd like to know what those 8 rules are.[/quote]
We all have our opinions. I have mine: you have yours.[color=red][/color][color=#444444][/color]
Hmmm.... I must have missed that opinion poll. Can you show me where it says that a majority of Americans are in agreement with Leia's beliefs about homosexuality?
Oh, and please remember that the majority of people have been wrong about a lot of things in the past. If we always followed 'the majority', I doubt we would have ever made progress as a society. There are always 'leaders', people who are ahead of the majority, and they are much needed in making society better. And once that's done, the majority will follow sooner or later.
[quote="Mooky"]I'm just disillusioned with how every religion (not just Islam), despite being a positive thing in its core, is being manipulated for personal gain, provoking violence and persecution of [i]others[/i]. I firmly believe religion should be a private thing between a person and God, and shouldn't be influenced by outside forces (like society), nor should religion be allowed to have influence on society in any way.[/quote]
I hear that from a lot of people, that somehow religion is good at its core, but it's being hijacked by people who wish to abuse it for bad or even evil things. It's my belief that [i]that[/i] is exactly why religion has been invented: as a rationale for a lot of bad acts. Religion has been and continues to be used as an excuse for everything: excluding people, denying groups of people their rights, wars, power abuse etc. The list goes on and on. And, be it in distant history or nowadays, a lot of people put up with it and accept it or even support it because "their religion" (or their Pope, priest, rabbi or mullah) says so.
Religion, in my opinion, has been [i]invented[/i] to control people, to keep them in line, to exercise power over them. Farao's, emperors and kings have made their positions of absolute, unquestionable power legitimate because they said God put that power upon them, or that they actually were (sons of) God(s). And nowadays, theocracies like Saudi-Arabia and Iran are being run by the clergy, who get their power from... God. And in the US, a politician has to be very religious or he won't even get elected.
[quote="Widdi"]I found the words of wisdom such as the eight "I'd Really Rather You Didn'ts" more useful and true to a happy life than things like "The Ten Commandments".[/quote]
I'd like to know what those 8 rules are.[/quote]
We all have our opinions. I have mine: you have yours.[color=red][/color][color=#444444][/color]
Interesting. So what are the beliefs that you havent been able to find a relition that fit them?Widdi wrote:As it currently stands I am a Agnostic-Pastifarian, but I have not always been.
I was born a non-denominational Protestant, but was raised in both Jewish and Catholic households (two step fathers who were both very religious). Six months after the second divorce my mom and I became active in the Mormon Church. I was baptized into the church when I was 11 years old. When I was 14 I took a World Religion Class in High School which ignited my love affair with Religious Study...
After spending months researching my own religion I came to the conclusion that I did not believe in the Book of Mormon and left the church; a decision that devastated my mother. At that point in my life I began searching for a religion that fitted my independent belief systems. I flirted with Buddhism, Judaism, Catholicism, Islam, Hindu, Paganism and many others. I did not find a perfect fit and thus decided that I was an Atheist.
Time went on and though I told myself there was no chance of a God, I found myself conflicted; eventually deciding that there was the possibility of God(s), but also deciding that no religion is correct.
About six months after this revelation I stumbled upon the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Although the book is a Religious Satire that is more atheist than anything, I found the words of wisdom such as the eight "I'd Really Rather You Didn'ts" more useful and true to a happy life than things like "The Ten Commandments".
So that's my religious history.
I sometimes wonder how someone can go from believing in God to turning away from him. I have seen so much evidence of God in my life that there is no doubt in my mind that he exists. Its amazing what God can do if you seek him and his will and give him a chance to work in your life.
Another thing I want to say is I dont believe in putting God in a Box. Religion to me represents a WAY or STYLE of worship and not a right and wrong translation of the bible or the "church rules" that come along with the name. I personally attend a Catholic Church because that is the environment where I feel I grow the most spiritually. Some people find a more upbeat and contemporary setting for worship more to their taste....and you know what....if thats where you feel most comfortable worshiping God....and that is where your faith grows the most.....then that is where you need to go. I dont think there is a right or wrong way of woship...I just think we need seek out Gods will for each of our lives.
JUST ANOTHER 27 YEAR OLD DISNEY BUFF.....
I have so much to say on this topic since I was very religous at one point in my life, but I think I'll save it for when I get home from work. However, Adam I can totally see how one person can go from following by the book of GOD to living a life without having him as an influence....I can see that.
I think its cool how people are fitting into one label. I was raised Catholic and some of it I agreed with and some of it I didn't. It reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw, "You can't be Catholic and pro-abortion."...its that one sided, bigoted thinking that will be our downfall. Its like saying, you can't be Christian and gay. Its NO ONE's business but you and your god's. NO ONES. Not your parents, your siblings, your priest/pastor/rabbi/etc. You decide what is best for you. I see more people who are agnostic because they are disenchanted by the church. They follow their own rules. They believe in a god, but they decide what is a sin and what isn't. Its because churches can be so strict in their rules and people are tired of being sheep...having sex in a non-marital relationship on Saturday and asking forgiveness on Sunday. My parents are still Catholic, but they don't go to church, don't follow the religion that closely. I'd say they are more Agnostic. My mom told me one day, "church is for sinners."
They go and ask and pay for forgiveness...something they can do anywhere. My parents became disenchanted by the church when they started saying they expected a certain percentage of your income. It use to be, you give what you can. A dollar here and there...not $20, $50, $100...and for what? Only a fraction of that goes to local communities to help them. Most of that pays for the pretty things you see in the church. And being I am not a fan of religious missionary work, I don't want my money to go to that either. I had family and friends who did missionary work and was disgusted to find...many of them...unless these tribes accept Jesus, they don't get the medicine, food, and education. If they don't denounce their own gods and goddesses, they get nothing. That's religious extortion. And its no wonder so many of our worlds indigenous cultures are extinct and endangered. The people often leave their forest homes and end up living in cities, where crime is at a high rate, where as they may have had an outbreak of a disease now and then, now their women are being raped and mutilated, their children killed or sold into the human trafficking rings. One of the main reasons I left the church was because of the BS missionary work so many churches are doing. Don't believe me, go be a missionary, see how they train you to refuse people help unless they accept Jesus. I know not all groups act this way. But being I have had heard 5 friends/family tell me this from 4 different churches, 3 in MA, and 1 in Florida, I tend to believe, its pretty common.
God doesn't need you money, he only needs YOU.

God doesn't need you money, he only needs YOU.
But you see......thats where FAITH comes in. I believe that seeking God, trying to understand him and building a relationship with him IS part of our lifes purpose. To find evidence of God you just have to surrender and allow him to guide you and your life.Prudence wrote:Agnostic now. My mind tells me I will never understand God or the gods or deities, and my heart tells me I'm not meant to, to paraphrase from the Angels and Demons movie. I had thought of that reasoning beforehand, but it was summed up there better than the way I was wording it.

JUST ANOTHER 27 YEAR OLD DISNEY BUFF.....
Siren wrote:I think its cool how people are fitting into one label. I was raised Catholic and some of it I agreed with and some of it I didn't. It reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw, "You can't be Catholic and pro-abortion."...its that one sided, bigoted thinking that will be our downfall. Its like saying, you can't be Christian and gay. Its NO ONE's business but you and your god's. NO ONES. Not your parents, your siblings, your priest/pastor/rabbi/etc. You decide what is best for you. I see more people who are agnostic because they are disenchanted by the church. They follow their own rules. They believe in a god, but they decide what is a sin and what isn't. Its because churches can be so strict in their rules and people are tired of being sheep...having sex in a non-marital relationship on Saturday and asking forgiveness on Sunday. My parents are still Catholic, but they don't go to church, don't follow the religion that closely. I'd say they are more Agnostic. My mom told me one day, "church is for sinners."They go and ask and pay for forgiveness...something they can do anywhere. My parents became disenchanted by the church when they started saying they expected a certain percentage of your income. It use to be, you give what you can. A dollar here and there...not $20, $50, $100...and for what? Only a fraction of that goes to local communities to help them. Most of that pays for the pretty things you see in the church. And being I am not a fan of religious missionary work, I don't want my money to go to that either. I had family and friends who did missionary work and was disgusted to find...many of them...unless these tribes accept Jesus, they don't get the medicine, food, and education. If they don't denounce their own gods and goddesses, they get nothing. That's religious extortion. And its no wonder so many of our worlds indigenous cultures are extinct and endangered. The people often leave their forest homes and end up living in cities, where crime is at a high rate, where as they may have had an outbreak of a disease now and then, now their women are being raped and mutilated, their children killed or sold into the human trafficking rings. One of the main reasons I left the church was because of the BS missionary work so many churches are doing. Don't believe me, go be a missionary, see how they train you to refuse people help unless they accept Jesus. I know not all groups act this way. But being I have had heard 5 friends/family tell me this from 4 different churches, 3 in MA, and 1 in Florida, I tend to believe, its pretty common.
God doesn't need you money, he only needs YOU.
True, It us up to us how we live and what we believe but that doesnt mean that other ppl cant have an opinion or shouldnt be involved in your life. Is it wrong for a parent to worry and react when they find drugs in their childs room? Of course not. This is something they can see as something that could harm their child....something that could set them down the wrong road in life... and they will act accordingly to try to extinguish this behavior. Its the same thing with a persons spiritual life. When you were baptized or brought into a community of Faith... you were brought into a church family...and that family is there to help guide you and support you spiritually. When they see you behaving or engaging in activities that could harm you in your spiritual walk...... they are there to try to set you back on track. So yes...in the end it is your decision....but I disagree when you say that your life is nobody elses buisiness and nobody has the right to confront you when they see you going in a direction that isnt best for you.
In todays world Abortion and the Gay issue are big issues in the Church. These are things that have become or are quickly becoming socially acceptable. Passages in the Bible that supposedly condemn homosexuality are being shifted into context and looked at again for deeper meaning and understanding of what is actually being said, challenging the churches traditional teachings on this issue. While I feel that people who find this kind of relationship to be a sin should be respected....I also believe that any Christian who is Gay or translates the scriptues on this issue differently then it has been...should also be respected.
I have a harder time justifying abortion. It is hard for me to understand how a Christian really can support what is in fact clear legalized murder. Unlike homosexuality, the only grey area I see is the long debated question....when does life begin. But to support an act that takes a life is very much against the basic beliefs of Christianity....that life is sacred...and should be protected.....especally the innocent and those who cant speak and defend themselves.
Your comments about missions and money is a good point. Of course things like that happen and if you look at ANY organization or company you will find a number of bad seeds. (look at ACORN) All I can say is that all Missions arent bad and arent like this. I do encourage everyone to do their homework and research charities before making any significant contributions. The Church also has its share of corrupt people just like ANY organization does. If you have a priest or minister pressuring you for money or making you feel obligated to give a certain amount of money... DONT GIVE IT! If you are spirital you should know well what the mission of the church is and its certainly not about money. But when people like this do show up in the church its so important to remember to judge that person for his/her actions as an individual.....dont lose your faith over the actions of others.
JUST ANOTHER 27 YEAR OLD DISNEY BUFF.....
So you are comparing drug use to religion???? Of course your family can tell you what they WANT you to do, that doesn't mean you do it. And the biggest mistake family and friends can do is keep shoving it in someone's face, "Be Christian, be Christian, be Christian." Guess what...that person still isn't going to be a Christian and they most likely will completely cut themselves from you. I see it a lot. When I told my mom I converted to Wicca, she wasn't happy, but she accepted it. She read a few bits and pieces of my books to understand it better. She even stuck up for me a few times. And because of that, our mother/daughter relationship is stronger. I am raising my daughter Agnostic. In the future, she can decide which path she wishes to follow. She has been exposed to Christianity and Wicca. As well as Native American and Hindu religions. In the end, its up to her. I'll simply be happy she has something to believe in. That this world just isn't soulless live and die for nothing.
And I don't need my family's spirituality. Part of the reason I chose Wicca is because I can take that path alone if I so choose, and that is how I choose. I've always been a loner, I don't want to be part of a team when it comes to having a deep connection with my Creators. It means more to me sitting in the woods chanting to myself, than standing in a circle with a Coven or singing along in a church. I am very lucky to have the parents I do. Of course the rest of the family thinks I am a devil worshiping moron. But they can think what they like. Even as a kid, I hated visiting them, for other reasons not related to religion. I'm not here to please my family, my parents, or my daughter. So long as I feel connected to God and Goddess, I am content.
And I don't need my family's spirituality. Part of the reason I chose Wicca is because I can take that path alone if I so choose, and that is how I choose. I've always been a loner, I don't want to be part of a team when it comes to having a deep connection with my Creators. It means more to me sitting in the woods chanting to myself, than standing in a circle with a Coven or singing along in a church. I am very lucky to have the parents I do. Of course the rest of the family thinks I am a devil worshiping moron. But they can think what they like. Even as a kid, I hated visiting them, for other reasons not related to religion. I'm not here to please my family, my parents, or my daughter. So long as I feel connected to God and Goddess, I am content.
LOL of course I am not compairing Drug Use to Religion. That was an example.Siren wrote:So you are comparing drug use to religion???? Of course your family can tell you what they WANT you to do, that doesn't mean you do it. And the biggest mistake family and friends can do is keep shoving it in someone's face, "Be Christian, be Christian, be Christian." Guess what...that person still isn't going to be a Christian and they most likely will completely cut themselves from you. I see it a lot. When I told my mom I converted to Wicca, she wasn't happy, but she accepted it. She read a few bits and pieces of my books to understand it better. She even stuck up for me a few times. And because of that, our mother/daughter relationship is stronger. I am raising my daughter Agnostic. In the future, she can decide which path she wishes to follow. She has been exposed to Christianity and Wicca. As well as Native American and Hindu religions. In the end, its up to her. I'll simply be happy she has something to believe in. That this world just isn't soulless live and die for nothing.
And I don't need my family's spirituality. Part of the reason I chose Wicca is because I can take that path alone if I so choose, and that is how I choose. I've always been a loner, I don't want to be part of a team when it comes to having a deep connection with my Creators. It means more to me sitting in the woods chanting to myself, than standing in a circle with a Coven or singing along in a church. I am very lucky to have the parents I do. Of course the rest of the family thinks I am a devil worshiping moron. But they can think what they like. Even as a kid, I hated visiting them, for other reasons not related to religion. I'm not here to please my family, my parents, or my daughter. So long as I feel connected to God and Goddess, I am content.

I found the reason you chose Wicca very interesting. I am curious why you thought you couldnt hold onto your Christian beliefs and practice them in private? I am a lot like you in that respect. I like to spend time with God alone and in quiet. Like I said before....you cant put god in a box and you dont have to be a part of a organized Church to be a Christian.

JUST ANOTHER 27 YEAR OLD DISNEY BUFF.....
I said that was PART of reason I chose Wicca. And a small part. There are many reasons, but the main reason...it never felt right for me. I never felt a connection, never had my heart in church. I never felt there is just God, I always felt the Earth itself was a power of its own, and it was female. Always felt Mother Nature was right up there with God. And these were feelings I had young. I stopped sharing my thoughts with the church, because of how they made me feel. Everything from "You're wrong." to "Its the devil trying to take hold." But it all didn't stop making me believe what I did. When I prayed, I talked to God and Mother Nature. When I was 16, one of my online friends said she was Wicca....oooo...bad...witchcraft...scary...evil...I shut her out of my life. I never thought of Wicca again. When I was 18, it was very late at night. The word "wicca" just bounced into my head and I was bored, I looked it up. I found some pro-Wicca sites and read about the religion. I found this is what I ALWAYS believed and never had a word for it. I spent a couple of months researching it in more depth. So began my conversion. I did a few small spells that would help introduce me to Wicca. Bought some books. It was 1998, we had a terrible drought in Florida. No rain for months. I had planted a garden for my daughter and it was dying. So I researched various rain spells, sat down, preformed the spell. Within seconds of completion....I got a minute or two of a light drizzle...in the middle of drought. That was it for me. I was hooked. I don't sit and perform spells all the time, but when I feel one is necessary or its part of the witch's calender to give thanks to God and Goddess, I do. And through it all, it has brought me more peace and understanding then church or the Bible ever did. I follow no one book. I have dozens of books. I take what I need from each. I like the whole fact Wiccans have two main rules:
Do what you will, but harm no one.
What ever you do will come back to you three times
The first one, the Rede, is simply stating, you can do whatever you want. There are no specific sins. But if it harms someone, then you shouldn't do it. And that includes harming yourself, cutting yourself, doing drugs, smoking, all these things harm someone, yourself. As a Wiccan, we shouldn't do those things. So when I hear people think Wiccans self-mutilate, I can't help but wonder the ignorance they choose to accept.
And the Three Folds Law, its all karma. If I do a good thing, that could be help a child who's fallen down or it could be a protection spell for someone...then that positive energy I gave off will come back to me three times stronger.
Where as if I call someone a name or perform a curse, I can expect that to backfire on me three times stronger.
On curses...those who practice Wicca, its White Magick (also known as Titania's Magick) don't do them. Yes, they are out there. But just there wouldn't be Satanisim without Christianity, Paganisim has a dark side too.
Understand, part of the reason Wicca is often connected to Satanisim, has to do with the fact both religions use the pentagram/pentacle. The problem is....Wiccan is a Druid based religion, its a modern branch off one of the most ancient religions known to mankind. Druids started using the pentagram, a star inside a circle. Each of the points represented an element...Earth, Fire, Air, Water, and Spirit.....If this sounds familiar...Its because the writers of Captain Planet borrows the idea of Earth, Fire, Wind, Water, Heart, not to mention the goddess Gaia.....In the 1960s when Satanism was on the rise, they decided to use the pentagram, they turned it upside down and so they could fit the ram/goat's head inside the star. They perverted an ancient symbol of peace and made it into a symbol of evil. Just like the Nazi's did it to the swastika. And the KKK did it to Celtic cross. All were symbols of peace, now used for hate. These people don't have a lick of imagination, so they steal symbols from other religions and use them as their own. Where as if a Buddist wears a swastika, it will likely still cause a stink, Wiccans refuse to give up their pentagram. It was theirs originally and the Satanists will not steal it as their own so easily.
Do what you will, but harm no one.
What ever you do will come back to you three times
The first one, the Rede, is simply stating, you can do whatever you want. There are no specific sins. But if it harms someone, then you shouldn't do it. And that includes harming yourself, cutting yourself, doing drugs, smoking, all these things harm someone, yourself. As a Wiccan, we shouldn't do those things. So when I hear people think Wiccans self-mutilate, I can't help but wonder the ignorance they choose to accept.
And the Three Folds Law, its all karma. If I do a good thing, that could be help a child who's fallen down or it could be a protection spell for someone...then that positive energy I gave off will come back to me three times stronger.
Where as if I call someone a name or perform a curse, I can expect that to backfire on me three times stronger.
On curses...those who practice Wicca, its White Magick (also known as Titania's Magick) don't do them. Yes, they are out there. But just there wouldn't be Satanisim without Christianity, Paganisim has a dark side too.
Understand, part of the reason Wicca is often connected to Satanisim, has to do with the fact both religions use the pentagram/pentacle. The problem is....Wiccan is a Druid based religion, its a modern branch off one of the most ancient religions known to mankind. Druids started using the pentagram, a star inside a circle. Each of the points represented an element...Earth, Fire, Air, Water, and Spirit.....If this sounds familiar...Its because the writers of Captain Planet borrows the idea of Earth, Fire, Wind, Water, Heart, not to mention the goddess Gaia.....In the 1960s when Satanism was on the rise, they decided to use the pentagram, they turned it upside down and so they could fit the ram/goat's head inside the star. They perverted an ancient symbol of peace and made it into a symbol of evil. Just like the Nazi's did it to the swastika. And the KKK did it to Celtic cross. All were symbols of peace, now used for hate. These people don't have a lick of imagination, so they steal symbols from other religions and use them as their own. Where as if a Buddist wears a swastika, it will likely still cause a stink, Wiccans refuse to give up their pentagram. It was theirs originally and the Satanists will not steal it as their own so easily.
Oh wow... This is going to be hard for me to explain, but here goes...
I am, technically, a Christian, because I was raised under said belief. BUT, I don't go to Church, I haven't been baptized and don't read the Bible at all. BUT despite this I still believe in God, I believe in Jesus, I believe in faith and most importantly prayer.
So what am I?
See, my issue with religion is that MAN has twisted it around so much that I honestly see most religion as foolish. They manipulate people into their bidding, they create a sense of elitism in people and preach double standards. Like, they teach you to love your fellow man, but turn them away if they disagree with your faith (homosexuality, different beliefs, walk of life etc.). I just don't agree with it.
My family are Seventh Day Adventists, and this Church can get pretty damn strict about the rules, I mean, the teachings of the Bible. For example, they worship saturday as the real resting day because they believe that God actually stopped creating life in the universe on a saturday, not a sunday as many believe.
When I was studying this with the priest he kept saying that the only thing we do is go to church, worship God, rest and study his word. In other words, anything that isn't related to God or church can't be done on Saturday due to the rules. So for example, if you are making breakfast on a Saturday and you realize that you don't have eggs you CAN'T go to the store and buy them because the rule is that you ONLY worship God this day. I then mentioned "what if she didn't realize that he didn't have eggs and needs to feed her family?". The priest just said that she could have bought it on Friday, even though I stated that she didn't know she ran out of eggs till she went to make breakfast.
On this subject we literally spent an hour discussion scenarios where the rule could be a bother and more like manipulation of the human mind. I asked "What if someone got sick on a saturday, they don't have medicine and need to buy it at a pharmacy?". The priest then said that the "rule" could be lifted since its an emergency, but IDEALLY it would be better to buy the medicine before it happens.
It just bothers my critical thinking mind because we can't predict what may happen. And it's ABSURD that you can't do anything on a saturday because of what is essentially a BELIEF.
But my side of faith gets bothered EVEN MORE when I learned the following...
In this Church the belief is that one you make a commitment to God and his faith you must get baptized so your soul gets cleansed off the sins you have committed and start anew with your new belief.
Here's the problem. When I was studying this I asked the priest this...
"What if there's a person who is not aligned to our faith, but that person has achieved God's goal with humanity. That person follows the Bible, even if they don't believe in a said religion. Can that person be saved and be granted entrance to heaven?"
The priest said "No, that person, despite his or her good deeds, can't be saved because he or she didn't accept God as his or her savior."
At that point I was shocked, and said...
"So you mean to tell me that someone who is DESERVING of being saved and being granted entrance to heaven can't be saved because that person chose not to accept God?"
With a smile, the priest said "Yes".
At that moment on I refused to accept this. Why? Because there are people who truly ARE doing God's work on Earth. They sacrifice their lives for the well living of others and have some of the most ideals ever created by man. It just pains me to think that THEY can't enter paradise simply because they chose to accept another faith, while those that did but don't do half the things the other person does are more deserving simply because of their faith.
It just turns heaven into this trendy club you need to call ahead for reservations years in advance, and again, considering they paint God as this just and fair being I refuse to accept that THIS is his word.
So because of things like this my faith is divided. I believe, but at the same time these things ruin my faith and feel I am better off doing whatever I want with it. It can get pretty awkward to explain this to people because you either have a belief or you are not. You are an atheist or you are not. I chose to believe in God, but I also chose to not pursue any religion because I believe man has skewed faith to the point of being a status rather than a way to make life better.
What do you guys think?
I am, technically, a Christian, because I was raised under said belief. BUT, I don't go to Church, I haven't been baptized and don't read the Bible at all. BUT despite this I still believe in God, I believe in Jesus, I believe in faith and most importantly prayer.
So what am I?
See, my issue with religion is that MAN has twisted it around so much that I honestly see most religion as foolish. They manipulate people into their bidding, they create a sense of elitism in people and preach double standards. Like, they teach you to love your fellow man, but turn them away if they disagree with your faith (homosexuality, different beliefs, walk of life etc.). I just don't agree with it.
My family are Seventh Day Adventists, and this Church can get pretty damn strict about the rules, I mean, the teachings of the Bible. For example, they worship saturday as the real resting day because they believe that God actually stopped creating life in the universe on a saturday, not a sunday as many believe.
When I was studying this with the priest he kept saying that the only thing we do is go to church, worship God, rest and study his word. In other words, anything that isn't related to God or church can't be done on Saturday due to the rules. So for example, if you are making breakfast on a Saturday and you realize that you don't have eggs you CAN'T go to the store and buy them because the rule is that you ONLY worship God this day. I then mentioned "what if she didn't realize that he didn't have eggs and needs to feed her family?". The priest just said that she could have bought it on Friday, even though I stated that she didn't know she ran out of eggs till she went to make breakfast.
On this subject we literally spent an hour discussion scenarios where the rule could be a bother and more like manipulation of the human mind. I asked "What if someone got sick on a saturday, they don't have medicine and need to buy it at a pharmacy?". The priest then said that the "rule" could be lifted since its an emergency, but IDEALLY it would be better to buy the medicine before it happens.
It just bothers my critical thinking mind because we can't predict what may happen. And it's ABSURD that you can't do anything on a saturday because of what is essentially a BELIEF.
But my side of faith gets bothered EVEN MORE when I learned the following...
In this Church the belief is that one you make a commitment to God and his faith you must get baptized so your soul gets cleansed off the sins you have committed and start anew with your new belief.
Here's the problem. When I was studying this I asked the priest this...
"What if there's a person who is not aligned to our faith, but that person has achieved God's goal with humanity. That person follows the Bible, even if they don't believe in a said religion. Can that person be saved and be granted entrance to heaven?"
The priest said "No, that person, despite his or her good deeds, can't be saved because he or she didn't accept God as his or her savior."
At that point I was shocked, and said...
"So you mean to tell me that someone who is DESERVING of being saved and being granted entrance to heaven can't be saved because that person chose not to accept God?"
With a smile, the priest said "Yes".
At that moment on I refused to accept this. Why? Because there are people who truly ARE doing God's work on Earth. They sacrifice their lives for the well living of others and have some of the most ideals ever created by man. It just pains me to think that THEY can't enter paradise simply because they chose to accept another faith, while those that did but don't do half the things the other person does are more deserving simply because of their faith.
It just turns heaven into this trendy club you need to call ahead for reservations years in advance, and again, considering they paint God as this just and fair being I refuse to accept that THIS is his word.
So because of things like this my faith is divided. I believe, but at the same time these things ruin my faith and feel I am better off doing whatever I want with it. It can get pretty awkward to explain this to people because you either have a belief or you are not. You are an atheist or you are not. I chose to believe in God, but I also chose to not pursue any religion because I believe man has skewed faith to the point of being a status rather than a way to make life better.
What do you guys think?