Censored Fantasia

[The Lizard King]

I began rereading these posts the other day and it got me to thinking about my 'Taiwan' DVD of "Fantasia" that I got from e-Bay many, many years ago.

Guess what? After playing it from the beginning, I have a complete "Fantasia" with the centaurs and everything.

You are mistaken. Your Taiwan silver was sourced from the LD and it is edited, but edited differently than the DVD.

TLK

[The Lizard King]

Yes, Lars, it is a "complete" version of "Fantasia".

It depends upon your definition of "complete." Your Taiwan silver DVD is edited to remove the negative racial stereotypes.

TLK

[bambi_nl]

Just a word of unfounded caution. 3.99 with free shipping? seems a little too good to be true. Especially with the SotS claim as well. It could be legit, but I don't know.

I know.... I was just googling for "Taiwan DVD Fantasia" and dropped by this page.
Haven't ordered one, but I am curious whether it could be the uncensored one. And then, only 3.99 is worth a chance isn't it??
Anyone took a chance??

[Lars Vermundsberget]

Yes, Lars, it is a "complete" version of "Fantasia".

It depends upon your definition of "complete." Your Taiwan silver DVD is edited to remove the negative racial stereotypes.

TLK

It would be useful to have this clarified - are we (or rather the two of you) necessarily talking about the same "Taiwan" DVD here?

I'm well aware of the fact that the Beethoven piece on the early 90s LD and VHS release is slightly different from that on the DVD - but still edited ("censored").

[Lars Vermundsberget]

[The Lizard King]

It would be useful to have this clarified - are we (or rather the two of you) necessarily talking about the same "Taiwan" DVD here?

I'm well aware of the fact that the Beethoven piece on the early 90s LD and VHS release is slightly different from that on the DVD - but still edited ("censored").

Yep, still censored. There is no bootleg DVD that I'm aware of out there that has the original uncensored Pastoral Symphony in as good a picture quality as that 16 mm print that sold for $1.5K recently on eBay.

TLK

[kaijueguy]

I was recently going through some old VHS recordings from the Disney Channel of the Wonderful World of Disney and found an episode called Magic and Music. In the final segment, the Magic Mirror introduces the Pastoral Symphony and it's uncut. According to Bill Cotter's book, the 1958 broadcast was uncut but then later rebroadcast in 1963 where those scenes were censored. I find it particularly odd that the version used for the broadcast on The Disney Channel went back to the 1958 version but am, at the same time, very thankful to have these scenes and am currently reworking them back into my DVD version of the film for an complete uncensored version.

In doing a search for censored Fantasia I found this blog and thought I would add my two cents.

Personally, I can understand why the scenes were digitally censored. We live in a culture that seems to be incapable of understanding anything within the constraints of the time in which films like this were created. For Disney to leave these scenes intact, after being assaulted with complaints about video covers of The Little Mermaid and Aladdin and all those highly imaginitive parents who heard and saw things in these movies that weren't there, would have been a form of political suicide.

The thought of including it uncut as an extra would have been a possibility but then we would have had somebody like Leonard Maltin popping up to apologize for the scenes. Personally, I find Maltin's apologies more offensive than the subject matter he apologizes for. In the first place he draws attention to these things and in the second place, I wasn't offended then and I'm not offended now. The ants in the Donald Duck cartoons are ants and I never thought of viewing them as stereotypes of black people until he put that thought in my head.

About the widescreen issue, Fantasia wasn't made that way but it was released in a Superscope version in the mid 1950's in an attempt to take advantage of the cinemascope craze. I'd be very interested in seeing a print of that version and how the movie was cropped for that presentation.

[drfsupercenter]

I was recently going through some old VHS recordings from the Disney Channel of the Wonderful World of Disney and found an episode called Magic and Music. In the final segment, the Magic Mirror introduces the Pastoral Symphony and it's uncut. According to Bill Cotter's book, the 1958 broadcast was uncut but then later rebroadcast in 1963 where those scenes were censored. I find it particularly odd that the version used for the broadcast on The Disney Channel went back to the 1958 version but am, at the same time, very thankful to have these scenes and am currently reworking them back into my DVD version of the film for an complete uncensored version.

Do you have a settop DVD recorder? Any chance I could get VOB files?

I know it's also on the Japanese laserdisc, maybe that would be better quality if anyone could find that.

[Maerj]

I was recently going through some old VHS recordings from the Disney Channel of the Wonderful World of Disney and found an episode called Magic and Music. In the final segment, the Magic Mirror introduces the Pastoral Symphony and it's uncut. According to Bill Cotter's book, the 1958 broadcast was uncut but then later rebroadcast in 1963 where those scenes were censored. I find it particularly odd that the version used for the broadcast on The Disney Channel went back to the 1958 version but am, at the same time, very thankful to have these scenes and am currently reworking them back into my DVD version of the film for an complete uncensored version.

In doing a search for censored Fantasia I found this blog and thought I would add my two cents.

Personally, I can understand why the scenes were digitally censored. We live in a culture that seems to be incapable of understanding anything within the constraints of the time in which films like this were created. For Disney to leave these scenes intact, after being assaulted with complaints about video covers of The Little Mermaid and Aladdin and all those highly imaginitive parents who heard and saw things in these movies that weren't there, would have been a form of political suicide.

The thought of including it uncut as an extra would have been a possibility but then we would have had somebody like Leonard Maltin popping up to apologize for the scenes. Personally, I find Maltin's apologies more offensive than the subject matter he apologizes for. In the first place he draws attention to these things and in the second place, I wasn't offended then and I'm not offended now. The ants in the Donald Duck cartoons are ants and I never thought of viewing them as stereotypes of black people until he put that thought in my head.

About the widescreen issue, Fantasia wasn't made that way but it was released in a Superscope version in the mid 1950's in an attempt to take advantage of the cinemascope craze. I'd be very interested in seeing a print of that version and how the movie was cropped for that presentation.

That would be really cool if you could just make a DVD of that episode, Music and Magic. I think a few others on this board would be interested in purchasing a copy of that!

[drfsupercenter]

http://geocities.com/disney_laserdiscs/fant.htm

And dude, BUY? Your standards are too high! If I get a copy of the VOB files I can host them for everyone!

[kaijueguy]

I do occasional posts of the Anthology series in the Disney binaries newsgroup. I've already converted the file to DVD and was going to post it in the newsgroup tomorrow. drfsupercenter-just checked your site and it's missing a censored segment. On the DVD the red carpet going to Bacchus' chair seems to unroll itself. In the uncensored version the black centaurette is actually unrolling it.

If the newsgroup posting is a problem. Let me know how I can make it possible to make this available to others. I'm not interested in selling it, just getting it out there.[/quote]

[Maerj]

Sweet! Let us know the details when you have it posted, thanks guys!

[kaijueguy]

I just finished posting Magic and Music in a.b.multimedia.disney. It's from an old VHS and the quality is pretty good considering, but there is occasional audio static. I've spent almost the entire day reworking these scenes into a DVD rip of the Pastoral symphony segment and plan on making a complete DVD of Fantasia for the newsgroup as well. It would really be nice to see some more sharing of classic Disney TV shows in this newsgroup.It doesn't look as though Disney is to anxious to put these into the hands of collectors and it's an easy way to share.

[JDCB1986]

OMFG! That's HORRIBLE!

the black centuratte looks mentally retarded!

firstly, that statement is far more offensive than the character being included in fantasia is.

it's people like you that force Disney to make these ridiculous edits.
sunflower looks no more "mentally retarded" than a lot of the early Disney animation.


do you think sunflower would have been edited out if people didn't make a big deal about it ? no
do you think "SEX/SFX" in the Lion King would have been edited out if people didn't make a big deal about it ? no
do you think aladdin, the little mermaid, the rescuers etc... would have been edited if people just took the movie for what it is and didn't TRY to find something that isn't perfectly clear and or comfortable.

we all sit here and complain that the movies are being edited and we aren't getting the original releases... then maybe we should stop trying to find anything we possibly can that would taint the Disney name.

[steve]

I've seen the footage of Sunflower, and I must say that the actual design is the objectionable thing about the character, not the characterisation. I don't think the characterisation is as offensive as some have suggested. The screenshot above is an unfortunate one to introduce people to the character, as her facial expression is often much more muted.

She behaves as any character in her lowly position would. She does not come off as some crude, racial joke, instead she does the kind of job we have seen countless other characters do (Cinderella, the first example that comes to mind). In fact she is often put in situations designed to gain the sympathy from the audience, for example, she struggles to see the centaurs from behind the taller centaurettes. She comes off as the underdog, like Mickey Mouse or Dopey in Snow White (although maybe the less said about Dopey the better...)

It is most unfortunate however that it was decided to cast a black stereotype in the role of the centaurettes' helper, maid, servant, whatever, when a white - or pink or blue or purple - character would have done just fine. But I guess that was just the thinking of the time...

So while I can't say I approve of Sunflower's presence in Fantasia - misunderstood characterisation or not, the design is still an offensive image - I think some people might have overreacted, which as JDCB1986 pointed out, is the kind of carry on that helps these films get censored in the first place.

That's not to say I want Sunflower back in the movie - I'd prefer she was just edited out a bit better. Perhaps a mention in some retrospective documentary would be nice though. You know, an acknowledgment of the past, and how times have changed.

[Siren]

I think we should learn from our ancestors mistakes. And I think this world is far too hypocritical. What about all the the John Wayne and other old Westerns that make Native Americans look like blood thirsty savages who are easily outwitted by the "civilized" white cowboys?

[Flanger-Hanger]

We expose our kids to Peter Pan but not this? I would think for the "Platinum" edition which has a large collectors market they would at least put this as a deleted scene on the DVD. Oh, wait that's Disney I'm talking about.

[merlinjones]

FYI - -

The servant centaurette was originally edited out of Fantasia during the 1963 theatrical reissue, at the height of the civil rights movement, while Walt was still alive. He even spoke about it saying some things that were okay in the past were not anymore.

This left a bad edit in the music and continuity for many reissues to come - - until refined edits were done for the redubbed Irwin Kostal release in the 80's and again for the 50th anniversary reissue (the version that eneded up on home video). The trick was getting a good music edit, so certain shots were blown-up, repeated, etc.

The zebra girls were never cut out, only the donkey girl. The original cut inadvertently resurfaced on the TV episode Magic & Music during the original Disney Channel era but was also subsequently edited.

BTW - - The original footage and negative still exists and has been restored along with the original film during the 50th restoration. But it is not part of the complete restored release print.

Unlike Song of the South, which is mild and barely offensive - - the centaurette footage is badly stereotyped and defintely detracts from Fantasia as a whole in my opinion (and I rarely support censorship cuts - - but Walt did cut this one himself).

[Lars Vermundsberget]

The "black centaurette" is first and foremost a "cartoony" character. That does make her quite out of place compared to the other "centaurettes", but it is, on the other hand, still quite in keeping with several other characters in the Beethoven segment.

[JDCB1986]

This is really starting to irritate me...
Think about it for a minute.

The only reason this thread has gone on so long about this one character in this one scene of Fantasia is because she is black.

Why is nobody making a big deal about Chink from The Aristocats ?
Why is nobody making a big deal about the "Injuns" in Peter Pan ?
Why is nobody making a big deal about Strombolli in Pinocchio ?
Why is nobody making a big deal about the Arabs in Aladdin ?
Why is nobody making a big deal about the French in Ratatouille ?
Why is nobody making a big deal about any of the other tens of characters that are negatively stereotyped in Disney films ?

It is a part of our history... A negative part... So rather than using it to teach younger generations a lesson...
"That was wrong... here's the story, here's what can be done to fix it..."
We decide to erase it and pretend it never happened. We hide it and hope that people don't notice it's missing.

This country is ridiculous. We can stereotype Asians and Native Americans and Italians... We can laugh at Gays and Mexicans and Jews... But the second we say "black" we are racist... We are negative... We are being offensive.

How anyone can post on this thread that they are offended by Disney's portrayal of a black character in Fantasia, but can watch The Aristocats or Peter Pan or Pinocchio or Pocahontas or Aladdin or any other number of Disney films that may use stereotypes in a negative way (even if for one 10 second scene) is beyond me. You're hypocrites and that's all there is to it.

You can laugh at one culture's stereotypes, but claim to be offended by another.

Learn from our past... Don't hide it.